8 ms·

> ...no better features than a menu system, but you had to guess what the menus were. This is also true for CLI interfaces. It illustrates the popularity of GU

> ...no better features than a menu system, but you had to guess what the menus were. This is also true for CLI interfaces. It illustrates the popularity of GUIs - much to the dismay of CLI enthusiasts everywhere. Edit: Yes, a -help or "help" command can be used to list the menu. But then this command has to be known beforehand. What if a clever designer decides to use -assist or "assistance" instead?

gboudrias 8y ago
Not to be too curmudgeonly but you don't have to guess, almost all those CLI interfaces have a manual and a --help function. You can't ask a chatbot what its options are.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Jaruzel 8y ago
  Ok, so... Linux Newbie: "I need to find out how much space I have left on this machine." > freespace bash: freespace: command not found > diskspace bash: diskspace: command not found > disk info bash: disk: command not found > diskinfo bash: diskinfo: command not found > man disk space No manual entry for disk No manual entry for space > help disk space bash: help: no help topics match `space'. Try `help help' or `man -k space' or `info space'. (looks it up on the internet) > df /dev/sda1 Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /dev/sda1 19478160 1370768 17094912 8% / ... AND that's why GUIs are preferred by most non-technical computer users. EDIT: Maybe I should have said 'CLI Newbie' - I am in no-way singling out Linux here.
  - umanwizard 8y ago
    Windows Newbie: “I need to find out how much space I have left on this machine.” Now what?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - Jaruzel 8y ago
      "Oh there's a folder icon" (click) "Oh there's an entry called My PC" (click) "Aha, there's my disk and little bar showing the free space" It's two clicks if you have your wits about you, maybe a few more if its not that obvious. I don't know why you singled out Windows. It's just as easy in Gnome or KDE etc - the point here is that CLIs can never be as intuitive as GUIs. As the original article said - Humans are very visual people. Seeing things in a visual space is much easier for us.
      - stephengillie 8y ago
        Further, Windows will pop up a notification that your disk space is running low, and this opens another window with suggestions for different types of files (temporary update files, temporary internet files, recycle bin, installed programs) that can be removed to release space.
        pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        Ubuntu does warnings for low disk space too. Personally I think the experience is very similar for noobs.
    - hiccuphippo 8y ago
      Click on My PC. The answer is there on the disk icons. But then again, why wouldn't the Linux guy search google in the first place? Or if it is a total newbie, look for the disk icons, the information is there as well.
    - dingo_bat 8y ago
      Press windows key, type "space". First item is "Storage". Press enter or click it, you see a prominent progress bar like thing and text: "300GB used, 164GB free".
  - claudius 8y ago
    $ apropos space CORE (3perl) - Namespace for Perl's core routines arpd (8) - userspace arp daemon. CMSG_SPACE (3) - access ancillary data CUDA_ERROR_INVALID_ADDRESS_SPACE (3) - (unknown subject) cudaErrorInvalidAddressSpace (3) - (unknown subject) df (1) - report file system disk space usage
    - Jaruzel 8y ago
      Thank you, you just re-enforced my point; I've been using Linux seriously for about a year now, and I didn't know about 'apropos'. Bash never mentioned it whenever I got stuck, and my learning travels on the internet has never referenced it.
      - jandrese 8y ago
        Honestly google is a better tool unless you already kind of know what you're looking for. Google "linux how much space on drive" and the first hit tells you exactly what you need. Another question someone might ask is "how do I change my password". Google for "linux change password" and there is a special help box right at the top of the search results. apropos password and you get this enormous list: apg (1) - generates several random passwords chage (1) - change user password expiry information chgpasswd (8) - update group passwords in batch mode chpasswd (8) - update passwords in batch mode cpgr (8) - copy with locking the given file to the password or gr... cppw (8) - copy with locking the given file to the password or gr... cracklib-check (8) - Check passwords using libcrack2 create-cracklib-dict (8) - Check passwords using libcrack2 crypt (3) - password and data encryption crypt_r (3) - password and data encryption des_read_2passwords (3ssl) - Compatibility user interface functions des_read_password (3ssl) - Compatibility user interface functions doveadm-pw (1) - Dovecot's password hash generator endpwent (3) - get password file entry endspent (3) - get shadow password file entry EVP_BytesToKey (3ssl) - password based encryption routine expiry (1) - check and enforce password expiration policy fgetpwent (3) - get password file entry fgetspent (3) - get shadow password file entry fgetspent_r (3) - get shadow password file entry getpass (3) - get a password getpw (3) - reconstruct password line entry getpwent (3) - get password file entry getpwnam (3) - get password file entry getpwnam_r (3) - get password file entry getpwuid (3) - get password file entry getpwuid_r (3) - get password file entry getspent (3) - get shadow password file entry getspent_r (3) - get shadow password file entry getspnam (3) - get shadow password file entry getspnam_r (3) - get shadow password file entry git-credential-cache (1) - Helper to temporarily store passwords in memory gitcredentials (7) - providing usernames and passwords to Git grpconv (8) - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups grpunconv (8) - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups grub-mkpasswd-pbkdf2 (1) - generate hashed password for GRUB lckpwdf (3) - get shadow password file entry login.defs (5) - shadow password suite configuration lppasswd (1) - add, change, or delete digest passwords. Net::LDAP::Control::PasswordPolicy (3pm) - LDAPv3 Password Policy control object Net::LDAP::Extension::SetPassword (3pm) - LDAPv3 Modify Password extension ob... pam_pwhistory (8) - PAM module to remember last passwords pam_unix (8) - Module for traditional password authentication passwd (1) - change user password passwd (1ssl) - compute password hashes passwd (5) - the password file passwd2des (3) - RFS password encryption putpwent (3) - write a password file entry putspent (3) - get shadow password file entry pwck (8) - verify integrity of password files pwconv (8) - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups pwunconv (8) - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups seahorse (1) - Passwords and Keys setpwent (3) - get password file entry setspent (3) - get shadow password file entry sgetspent (3) - get shadow password file entry sgetspent_r (3) - get shadow password file entry shadow (5) - shadowed password file shadowconfig (8) - toggle shadow passwords on and off smbpasswd (5) - The Samba encrypted password file smbpasswd (8) - change a user's SMB password ulckpwdf (3) - get shadow password file entry unix_chkpwd (8) - Helper binary that verifies the password of the curren... unix_update (8) - Helper binary that updates the password of a given user vigr (8) - edit the password, group, shadow-password or shadow-gr... vipw (8) - edit the password, group, shadow-password or shadow-gr... xcrypt (3) - RFS password encryption xdecrypt (3) - RFS password encryption xencrypt (3) - RFS password encryption If you didn't already know you were looking for the "passwd" command it might be hard to pick it out of the list.
  - pinkythepig 8y ago
    I feel like the real problem here is that bash is still the default and bash defaults/UX are straight up awful. The fish shell gets a lot of things right in regards to a sane out of the box experience, though there are a few things it could do better. The tools themselves leave a lot to be desired from a UX experience too. Things like nonsense names, bad defaults and/or no inherent intelligence in the program, means you have to specify numerous options manually for things that should be easy to automate. The whole experience would benefit greatly by telling people about things like man/apropros on first startup and other one time tutorials. There are some days where I feel tempted to write small helper scripts whose sole purpose would be to rename/reorient the default experience/flags of various CLI apps, so that it is not a jumbled mess full of historical accidents that can no longer be changed.
- detaro 8y ago
  > You can't ask a chatbot what its options are. then it's a really bad one.
fenwick67 8y ago
At least with a cli you can usually invoke help and visually scan the text for what you want. With audio chatbots, listening to a list of options quickly becomes tedious.
mrtksn 8y ago
With CLI, you usually can type help or add a -h to the command or something like that and you'll be presented with options and examples. You really don't have this option with voice. On the other hand, when I visited my mother I was surprised that she figured out that Google Assistant can provide her with nutrition information. She would have never figured out by herself on a CLI or menu because it's very intimidating. This somewhat contradicts my previous comment about how much I dislike voice interfaces but they probably have some strengths.
- cortesoft 8y ago
  Most chat bots respond to ‘help’ with a list of commands.
  - mrtksn 8y ago
    In my experience, these "commands" are also quite vague. Instead of expecting the "help", they should just put (x) and show the menu where I can click on things and be done with it. On voice interface, your best chanse is to connect to an actual intelligent being as soon as possible because getting the options is a frustration by it's own.
  - Bartweiss 8y ago
    My experience is that they tend to repeat their intro dialogue, which is often something like "tell me a few words about why you're calling, for instance you could say 'upgrade account' or 'billing issue'". Unlike keypress phone trees, they virtually never enumerate all the options. If I'm saying 'help' it means I've tried that and failed, so it's not clear what the benefit is.
- smacktoward 8y ago
  > With CLI, you usually can type help or add a -h to the command or something like that and you'll be presented with options and examples And you get to enjoy fumbling around trying to guess whether this particular program's magic incantation to summon help is "help", "-h", "--help", "?", "/?"...
pjc50 8y ago
Note that mobile GUIs have often re-invented the "undiscoverable" interface, where things like swipe or long-press do things but it's not obvious where you can safely do them.
- strkek 8y ago
  I wonder if this app has a drawer. swipes to the right > Message archived. No wtf. undo Guess it doesn't.
  - kolpa 8y ago
    You need to swipe from the left edge to Open drawer, but swipe to the right edge to Discard. Totally different operations, obviously.
_jal 8y ago
CLIs, though, serve a different market. I put them in the 'professional' box, alongside Autocad and such; yes, these tools are built with the assumption that the people using them have experience using them. IVR, is supposed to be 'intuitive' or 'natural' or however one's preferred marketing dialect describes it. The assumption is usually flipped - that tools are supposed to assist those ignorant of their use[1]. It has been a long time since normal users have been expected to use a CLI. If you're looking at one, you choose to. This is not at all true of IVR/Sirlextana. [1] Of course, they don't serve the caller, they serve the robot's owner, so interests are only aligned to the extent the robot efficiently helps the caller with their goal, which adds an additional layer of opportunity for frustration.
ouid 8y ago
The point of a CLI is to be able to write programs to handle complicated interactions between applications with ease, and by default. A gui doesn't have a pipe.
JackCh 8y ago
As a tech oriented site we're nearly all accustomed to unix/unix-inspired general purpose CLIs. However that's not all that exists. There exist more specialized systems, such as those designed to be used over teletype machines, that present the user with a pre-defined menu prompt at each step in the interaction. However unlike with voice-oriented systems, the user can sit there and read the entire list of options for as long as they'd like. You connect, and a menu prints out. You press a key to make a selection and a new menu prints out, or the system prompts you to enter a different sort of data. Think back to the earliest programming courses people take: What's your first name: Jack What's your last name: Ch Hello Jack Ch!

gboudrias 8y ago

Not to be too curmudgeonly but you don't have to guess, almost all those CLI interfaces have a manual and a --help function. You can't ask a chatbot what its options are.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Jaruzel 8y ago
Ok, so... Linux Newbie: "I need to find out how much space I have left on this machine." > freespace bash: freespace: command not found > diskspace bash: diskspace: command not found > disk info bash: disk: command not found > diskinfo bash: diskinfo: command not found > man disk space No manual entry for disk No manual entry for space > help disk space bash: help: no help topics match `space'. Try `help help' or `man -k space' or `info space'. (looks it up on the internet) > df /dev/sda1 Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on /dev/sda1 19478160 1370768 17094912 8% / ... AND that's why GUIs are preferred by most non-technical computer users. EDIT: Maybe I should have said 'CLI Newbie' - I am in no-way singling out Linux here.
- umanwizard 8y ago
  Windows Newbie: “I need to find out how much space I have left on this machine.” Now what?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Jaruzel 8y ago
    "Oh there's a folder icon" (click) "Oh there's an entry called My PC" (click) "Aha, there's my disk and little bar showing the free space" It's two clicks if you have your wits about you, maybe a few more if its not that obvious. I don't know why you singled out Windows. It's just as easy in Gnome or KDE etc - the point here is that CLIs can never be as intuitive as GUIs. As the original article said - Humans are very visual people. Seeing things in a visual space is much easier for us.
    - stephengillie 8y ago
      Further, Windows will pop up a notification that your disk space is running low, and this opens another window with suggestions for different types of files (temporary update files, temporary internet files, recycle bin, installed programs) that can be removed to release space.
      - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        Ubuntu does warnings for low disk space too. Personally I think the experience is very similar for noobs.
  - hiccuphippo 8y ago
    Click on My PC. The answer is there on the disk icons. But then again, why wouldn't the Linux guy search google in the first place? Or if it is a total newbie, look for the disk icons, the information is there as well.
  - dingo_bat 8y ago
    Press windows key, type "space". First item is "Storage". Press enter or click it, you see a prominent progress bar like thing and text: "300GB used, 164GB free".
- claudius 8y ago
  $ apropos space CORE (3perl) - Namespace for Perl's core routines arpd (8) - userspace arp daemon. CMSG_SPACE (3) - access ancillary data CUDA_ERROR_INVALID_ADDRESS_SPACE (3) - (unknown subject) cudaErrorInvalidAddressSpace (3) - (unknown subject) df (1) - report file system disk space usage
  - Jaruzel 8y ago
    Thank you, you just re-enforced my point; I've been using Linux seriously for about a year now, and I didn't know about 'apropos'. Bash never mentioned it whenever I got stuck, and my learning travels on the internet has never referenced it.
    - jandrese 8y ago
      Honestly google is a better tool unless you already kind of know what you're looking for. Google "linux how much space on drive" and the first hit tells you exactly what you need. Another question someone might ask is "how do I change my password". Google for "linux change password" and there is a special help box right at the top of the search results. apropos password and you get this enormous list: apg (1) - generates several random passwords chage (1) - change user password expiry information chgpasswd (8) - update group passwords in batch mode chpasswd (8) - update passwords in batch mode cpgr (8) - copy with locking the given file to the password or gr... cppw (8) - copy with locking the given file to the password or gr... cracklib-check (8) - Check passwords using libcrack2 create-cracklib-dict (8) - Check passwords using libcrack2 crypt (3) - password and data encryption crypt_r (3) - password and data encryption des_read_2passwords (3ssl) - Compatibility user interface functions des_read_password (3ssl) - Compatibility user interface functions doveadm-pw (1) - Dovecot's password hash generator endpwent (3) - get password file entry endspent (3) - get shadow password file entry EVP_BytesToKey (3ssl) - password based encryption routine expiry (1) - check and enforce password expiration policy fgetpwent (3) - get password file entry fgetspent (3) - get shadow password file entry fgetspent_r (3) - get shadow password file entry getpass (3) - get a password getpw (3) - reconstruct password line entry getpwent (3) - get password file entry getpwnam (3) - get password file entry getpwnam_r (3) - get password file entry getpwuid (3) - get password file entry getpwuid_r (3) - get password file entry getspent (3) - get shadow password file entry getspent_r (3) - get shadow password file entry getspnam (3) - get shadow password file entry getspnam_r (3) - get shadow password file entry git-credential-cache (1) - Helper to temporarily store passwords in memory gitcredentials (7) - providing usernames and passwords to Git grpconv (8) - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups grpunconv (8) - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups grub-mkpasswd-pbkdf2 (1) - generate hashed password for GRUB lckpwdf (3) - get shadow password file entry login.defs (5) - shadow password suite configuration lppasswd (1) - add, change, or delete digest passwords. Net::LDAP::Control::PasswordPolicy (3pm) - LDAPv3 Password Policy control object Net::LDAP::Extension::SetPassword (3pm) - LDAPv3 Modify Password extension ob... pam_pwhistory (8) - PAM module to remember last passwords pam_unix (8) - Module for traditional password authentication passwd (1) - change user password passwd (1ssl) - compute password hashes passwd (5) - the password file passwd2des (3) - RFS password encryption putpwent (3) - write a password file entry putspent (3) - get shadow password file entry pwck (8) - verify integrity of password files pwconv (8) - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups pwunconv (8) - convert to and from shadow passwords and groups seahorse (1) - Passwords and Keys setpwent (3) - get password file entry setspent (3) - get shadow password file entry sgetspent (3) - get shadow password file entry sgetspent_r (3) - get shadow password file entry shadow (5) - shadowed password file shadowconfig (8) - toggle shadow passwords on and off smbpasswd (5) - The Samba encrypted password file smbpasswd (8) - change a user's SMB password ulckpwdf (3) - get shadow password file entry unix_chkpwd (8) - Helper binary that verifies the password of the curren... unix_update (8) - Helper binary that updates the password of a given user vigr (8) - edit the password, group, shadow-password or shadow-gr... vipw (8) - edit the password, group, shadow-password or shadow-gr... xcrypt (3) - RFS password encryption xdecrypt (3) - RFS password encryption xencrypt (3) - RFS password encryption If you didn't already know you were looking for the "passwd" command it might be hard to pick it out of the list.
- pinkythepig 8y ago
  I feel like the real problem here is that bash is still the default and bash defaults/UX are straight up awful. The fish shell gets a lot of things right in regards to a sane out of the box experience, though there are a few things it could do better. The tools themselves leave a lot to be desired from a UX experience too. Things like nonsense names, bad defaults and/or no inherent intelligence in the program, means you have to specify numerous options manually for things that should be easy to automate. The whole experience would benefit greatly by telling people about things like man/apropros on first startup and other one time tutorials. There are some days where I feel tempted to write small helper scripts whose sole purpose would be to rename/reorient the default experience/flags of various CLI apps, so that it is not a jumbled mess full of historical accidents that can no longer be changed.
detaro 8y ago
> You can't ask a chatbot what its options are. then it's a really bad one.

fenwick67 8y ago

At least with a cli you can usually invoke help and visually scan the text for what you want. With audio chatbots, listening to a list of options quickly becomes tedious.

mrtksn 8y ago

With CLI, you usually can type help or add a -h to the command or something like that and you'll be presented with options and examples. You really don't have this option with voice. On the other hand, when I visited my mother I was surprised that she figured out that Google Assistant can provide her with nutrition information. She would have never figured out by herself on a CLI or menu because it's very intimidating. This somewhat contradicts my previous comment about how much I dislike voice interfaces but they probably have some strengths.

cortesoft 8y ago
Most chat bots respond to ‘help’ with a list of commands.
- mrtksn 8y ago
  In my experience, these "commands" are also quite vague. Instead of expecting the "help", they should just put (x) and show the menu where I can click on things and be done with it. On voice interface, your best chanse is to connect to an actual intelligent being as soon as possible because getting the options is a frustration by it's own.
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  My experience is that they tend to repeat their intro dialogue, which is often something like "tell me a few words about why you're calling, for instance you could say 'upgrade account' or 'billing issue'". Unlike keypress phone trees, they virtually never enumerate all the options. If I'm saying 'help' it means I've tried that and failed, so it's not clear what the benefit is.
smacktoward 8y ago
> With CLI, you usually can type help or add a -h to the command or something like that and you'll be presented with options and examples And you get to enjoy fumbling around trying to guess whether this particular program's magic incantation to summon help is "help", "-h", "--help", "?", "/?"...

pjc50 8y ago

Note that mobile GUIs have often re-invented the "undiscoverable" interface, where things like swipe or long-press do things but it's not obvious where you can safely do them.

strkek 8y ago
I wonder if this app has a drawer. swipes to the right > Message archived. No wtf. undo Guess it doesn't.
- kolpa 8y ago
  You need to swipe from the left edge to Open drawer, but swipe to the right edge to Discard. Totally different operations, obviously.

_jal 8y ago

CLIs, though, serve a different market. I put them in the 'professional' box, alongside Autocad and such; yes, these tools are built with the assumption that the people using them have experience using them. IVR, is supposed to be 'intuitive' or 'natural' or however one's preferred marketing dialect describes it. The assumption is usually flipped - that tools are supposed to assist those ignorant of their use[1]. It has been a long time since normal users have been expected to use a CLI. If you're looking at one, you choose to. This is not at all true of IVR/Sirlextana. [1] Of course, they don't serve the caller, they serve the robot's owner, so interests are only aligned to the extent the robot efficiently helps the caller with their goal, which adds an additional layer of opportunity for frustration.

ouid 8y ago

The point of a CLI is to be able to write programs to handle complicated interactions between applications with ease, and by default. A gui doesn't have a pipe.

JackCh 8y ago

As a tech oriented site we're nearly all accustomed to unix/unix-inspired general purpose CLIs. However that's not all that exists. There exist more specialized systems, such as those designed to be used over teletype machines, that present the user with a pre-defined menu prompt at each step in the interaction. However unlike with voice-oriented systems, the user can sit there and read the entire list of options for as long as they'd like. You connect, and a menu prints out. You press a key to make a selection and a new menu prints out, or the system prompts you to enter a different sort of data. Think back to the earliest programming courses people take: What's your first name: Jack What's your last name: Ch Hello Jack Ch!