10 ms·

I would go out of my way to avoid people who communicate like this with me. People put time and energy in making software better, at least in their own eyes, fo

• ralfn 8y ago
  When it comes to being oversensitive needy little things there is no true Scottsman. As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. So let's chalk this to cultural differences. We wouldn't hire someone like you and you wouldn't hire someone like him.
  • richmarr 8y ago
    As another Northern European I disassociate myself from your comment. Yes, there are cultural differences between the US and Europe. No, that doesn't mean that Europe agrees with your opinion on what constitutes acceptable behaviour in the software community. You do not speak for us.
    • cbluth 8y ago
      There is no true Northern European.
      • posterboy 8y ago
        There's an honest scottsman though. Ha. I'm sure the difference is due to lattitude. A little bit of getting heated is ill advised in the scorching sun.
    • omginternets 8y ago
      I dunno, man, I grew up in the states and moved to Northern Europe, and I definitely see what he means. It's quite refreshing, even.
    • umadtho9000 8y ago
      And neither do you.
  • cncrnd 8y ago
    Do you feel that your views are cultural and not unique to yourself? Maybe I should look into moving because I am tired of smiling dummies. That being said, I feel that if I were in a managerial position here in the Bay Area I would probably adopt a smile and softer language because that's what people are used to. The challenge is being genuine while putting people at ease so that they can do their best work.
  • alexkrycek 8y ago
    If only us silly Americans talked so "honestly" with our wives: "Why did you cook this? Are you fucking stupid?" I'm in the military, and if you can't control what you say, you shouldn't be respected.
    • deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    • AsyncAwait 8y ago
      This is not aimed at you specifically, but I find this decorum policing off punting. Like the U.S. military may be able to control what they say, but some of the things it has actually done are less than nice. I don't care that Linus swears, he hasn't invaded anyone or harmed anyone as far as I know. I don't care that Trump swears, I care about the stupid stuff he actually does. Linus may swear, but he also protects us from bad code and I value that, because in the end, words don't do anything, actions do.
      • alexkrycek 8y ago
        I didn't bring the military up to say that it's an authority on proper conduct. Rather, I'm saying that EVEN in the military, with some of the most insensitive people around, swearing indicates lack of self-control and situational awareness.
        • AsyncAwait 8y ago
          Sure, swearing may indicate lack of self-control, but the lack of swearing does not indicate self-control, nor does the presence of swearing indicate lack of self-control. I once saw a doc about the alarming levels of rape in the U.S. military. Some of these guys were pretty high rank, so I guess they fooled everyone that they possessed self-control, (perhaps they didn't swear), but in reality they clearly lacked self-control. I only bring up this example to explain my point, I know there are many officers who don't swear and don't lack self-control, but my point is that the lack of swearing doesn't really prove anything, nor does the presence of swearing.
  • ThJ 8y ago
    Cultural differences? Look, we're not famous for our hospitality up here, but we are polite.
  • yoshuaw 8y ago
    Northern European checking in here. I feel super uncomfortable with this communication style. Don't think this is reflective of cultural differences, so much as it is personal preference.
  • kristianc 8y ago
    > As a northern European I find it not only comfortable that Linus runs Linux, but I would be less comfortable if it was another American smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck attitude that you guys seem to confuse for 'professionalism'. This is a false dichotomy. Most of what Linus says would run foul of HN's guidelines - which I'll paraphrase here as "don't call someone an asshole before making your real point", but that doesn't mean that everyone on HN is a 'smile in face pretend to be your friend but be shady as fuck'.
    • ralfn 8y ago
      When somebody speaks their mind, everybody around them knows where they stand. I doubt there is difference between about how often people resent other people around the world. But I do consider it more humane if resentment isn't hidden under the surface. It's easier to trust Linus than a tactfull politician. That should make us all think.
      • mannykannot 8y ago
        One circumstance where insults might be justified is where one party has ignored valid objections to his position. I mention this here because kristianic made the valid point that you have set up a false dichotomy, and you replied with a statement that keeps it going. Is the habit of not paying attention to the actual issues also part of your superior Northern European culture, and, in fact, is it perhaps a reason why insults are apparently such an important part of it?
        • deleted 8y ago
          [deleted]
        • mannykannot 8y ago
          I see someone chose to down-vote without commenting - presumably not one of those self-described straight-talking Northern Europeans?
      • richmarr 8y ago
        > It's easier to trust Linus than a tactfull politician. That should make us all think. I can kinda see where you're going with this, ie. the idea that knowing what someone is thinking means you can trust them... but I disagree. To my mind verbal abuse doesn't mean they're speaking their mind, it means they've lost control. Based on these blow-ups I'd certainly question trusting Torvalds in any high stakes situation that required tact under pressure... which I would expect to happen frequently when running a country.
  • mosselman 8y ago
    What nonsense. I am Dutch and live in the Netherlands, we are very direct and take little to no heed to hierarchy. I never said that Linus should be fake friendly. I am saying that swearing does damage to moral and the power of his arguments. Also, Steve Jobs was a notorious asshole and he is revered in the US despite this. There are countless other examples of CEOs and managers who are more than unfriendly in the US who are looked at as examples of how one should behave to be 'professional'. Your being 'northern European' has nothing to do with any of what we are talking about. Maybe you can chalk your reaction to your apparent false sense of superiority over friendliness and, it seems, Americans.
    • ralfn 8y ago
      Swearing doesn't damage morale. Many soccer coaches and inspiring pep talks contain swear words. It's a style figure. Tact can be very usefull in small teams where trust and coordination is important. For large projects, with thousands of stake holders the bar to participate in a conversation should be high. As we both say in Holland: we are not made of sugar. But go read Linus rant now and ask yourself: would this really classify as an inappropriate rant in Holland? Or are you just, parroting the default (mostly from the US) critique on Linus? Because this whole 'Linus isn't tactfull' is a false comparision. He is more approachable than any other person in that sort of position. Since there isn't a big filter at the door based on who somebody is but there is a verbal filter at the table. Very egalitarian if you ask me. Very Dutch like. And our directness is often referred to as rude. It would look better on you to not blindly follow in that judgement when it concerns others. For example: >Maybe you can chalk your reaction to your apparent false sense of superiority over friendliness and, it seems, Americans If out of the mouth of Linus would be one of those 'look at how insensitive Linus is' posts. Something with the pot and the kettle.
      • smhost 8y ago
        We get it, you have daddy issues. edit: dumbass people actually defending this emotionally illiterate, developmentally challeneged child man.
      • letsgetphysITal 8y ago
  • rdsubhas 8y ago
    While Linus may be right, why is it that we always find only "Linus ranting out against people" threads that trend? In a positive way, why don't we have "Linus gets ranted against" posts? Is it because Linus is always right? Or is it because nobody speaks up against Linus? Or is it because Linus isn't actively coding much since git days? Or is it just because it happens but doesn't get as much visibility? I'm just asking this to see if this culture is one way or goes both ways...
    • ralfn 8y ago
      Since even the people complaining about it are eating it up like donuts. They just don't want to admit it turns them on. The honest reaction to any post like this is to just report it because the only entertainment factor is the drama.
    • finnthehuman 8y ago
      >I'm just asking this to see if this culture is one way or goes both ways... That won't tell you anything about LKML culture, either. If you want a better sense of lkml than social media hot takes can deliver, go lurk it for a month.
    • bjconlan 8y ago
      This is a very good question. I wonder if we're just rubbernecking the train wreck that is Linus' management style. All his responses come from A "care personally" perspective but I'm still not sure if this is what you would call "radical candor". Either way stay tuned. I really hope we don't loose Linus to burnout on things like this but some days I wish he was more tactful with his responses (particularly to people that look to be trying to "fix" a problem which is seemingly inline with standards even if said person doesn't realise the real world implications)
• brynjolf 8y ago
  U mad bro?
• zwischenzug 8y ago
  My wife works in mental health, dealing with people at the very lowest ebb. You'd think the therapists' internal meetings would be full of carefully worded and graded polite discussion, but just yesterday she told me about a meeting where the lead therapist said to one particular member of the group, 'If you don't do X right, we're fucked. You are fucking us up!' I don't know if that's good or not, but it's not just in software that harsh words are used. And their stridency makes clear that this is an exceptionally significant point. I imagine that Linus's many more blandly worded emails don't result in this level of attention, so you wouldn't even be aware of his points there.
  • richmarr 8y ago
    Presumably your wife is dealing with complex issues where there are real conflicts that require real words, unlike this situation. This is a non-conflict that Torvalds turned into one. In this case, Torvalds is swearing at someone who agrees with him (see Andy Shevchenko's response) because he hasn't bothered to seek clarification before calling it "pure and utter garbage".
    • zwischenzug 8y ago
      I think people's ideas of what's a real conflict can vary. I don't know what Linus's motivation was, probably you know better than me. Is it possible he's trying to engender a culture where Andy pushes back harder on these rationales, rather than just being polite? Quoting Andy: Yeah, there were few reasons why I decide to make that patch (OK, it seems I staked on not the best reason).
      • richmarr 8y ago
        If Torvalds is trying to engender a culture by being the only one swearing then I'd be very curious where he learned that technique and how he was measuring its success over the many years he's exhibited that behaviour. Occam's Razor suggests that the more likely cause is that he's just an angry man who can't (or doesn't want to) moderate his behaviour. I don't want to assume too much about your wife's job or personality, but I'd also assume she would swear in a way that was reciprocal with those under therapy, based on a communication style they had established together... as opposed to her swearing at them while they were being perfectly polite.
• cryon 8y ago
  I can't stand when you're expected to wrap every sentence in some sugar coated fake 'niceness' just to not step on somebody's toes. If I have a certain way of expressing myself... Well that's how it is.
  • dgoldstein0 8y ago
    It doesn't have to be about sugar coating. Just try to take some of the emotions out of the conversation and stick to stating the facts, and you can easily come across as much less offensive.
  • mosselman 8y ago
    I didn't say that he should write: 'Hey, great that you took the time to contribute, here are a few suggestions though.' I am talking about things like: 'If you think xyz, then you are a fucking moron'.
  • rainbowmverse 8y ago
    >> If I have a certain way of expressing myself... Well that's how it is. You shouldn't sell yourself short. Changing the way you communicate is a huge but worthwhile challenge. In a different time, I would have been mean to you over your comment instead of offering supportive words. It took as much effort to be nice as it used to take to be mean.
    • brazzledazzle 8y ago
      I hope I can add a “me too” without stepping on the rules too much. In truth I’m still learning but it’s been worth it.
• icebraining 8y ago
  by someone who has his fame to protect himself with. He never needed any protection; Linus always wrote like this. Back in the argument with Tanenbaum in '92, when he was a nobody, he already wrote stuff like "your job is being a professor and researcher: That's one hell of a good excuse for some of the brain-damages of minix. I can only hope (and assume) that Amoeba doesn't suck like minix does."
  • hfdgiutdryg 8y ago
    So he got his start by being toxic toward what has become the most-deployed OS in the world. https://mobile.linuxtoday.com/security/minix-the-most-popular-os-in-the-world-thanks-to-intel.html https://mobile.linuxtoday.com/security/minix-the-most-popula...
• posterboy 8y ago
  It's not constructive, but at least explicitly so. Avoiding swear words wouldn't change the fact, rather the insult would creep hidden in fluff. The constructive part, not destructive, is in the alternatives proposed. So, plus minus zero in my mind, the emotional aspect is just a grab for attention, and ...
• xccc 8y ago
  Another moral indignation post at the top of the propaganda channel. Hint: Perhaps no one wants to communicate with you, too.
• GuB-42 8y ago
  Linus has answered that question about the way he communicates. His idea is that he wants to make his feelings as clear as possible. He mentioned a case where some guy attempted suicide after working months on a kernel patch that he rejected. He blames himself for not being clear enough about what he felt about the idea before work has started. When you say "People put time and energy in making software better, at least in their own eyes, for others and then they get textually abused". That's actually the whole point. Linus doesn't want you to put time and energy in what he perceives as a lost cause. Not saying that what he does is good or bad, just saying what I think his rationale for using harsh language is.
• trumped 8y ago
  Linus T. would probably be shadow banned if he commented here under a pseudonym... HN's moderation is a little extreme.