4 ms·

No, generating leads is needed because without leads businesses make no money.

ironjunkie 8y ago
You guys think too much inside the system as it is today. Without bullshit jobs there is no concept of "leads". People would just buy the service they need, and supposedly the best most utilitarian product would survive only based on that.
- davidivadavid 8y ago
  Yeah? And what would your boss do? Wait for customers to come in?
- speedplane 8y ago
  You make the best widget X in the market. Google's widget Y and Microsoft's widget Z are far inferior. You are in your bedroom, holding your newly invented widget X... now what?
  - AstralStorm 8y ago
    In the proposed lack of marketing system, you take geographically local position and sell the products to clients that find them. Knowledge about the improved product spreads by word of mouth. If it is not much better, you will obviously lose to established competition in the long run but probably not disappear, just like Amazon hasn't killed local shops yet. The endgame is very similar still - one with higher reach and budget wins. Unless the competition is vastly superior.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    You post the news about it on your company's website. You show it on a trade show. People like it, buy it, the news spread, you get orders. Of course it won't work that way, because Google and Microsoft will spend shit ton of money spamming the Internet about their widgets, so yours dies in the noise. Therefore, you need to spend your money and time to shout louder and louder. This is what it means to be in a zero-sum game. Pure waste, which unfortunately cannot be stopped from within the system.
    - kasey_junk 8y ago
      “You show it on a trade show” You of course understand that is marketing right?
      - TeMPOraL 8y ago
        Yes, but it's pull, not push.
        speedplane 8y ago
        Going to a trade show, and putting yourself in front of thousands of others, is definitely push. So is building a website, or doing any type of SEO. Even telling your friends or mom about your new cool widget is push... it's all necessary and it's all marketing.
        TeMPOraL 8y ago
        It's pull from customer's point of view. I go to a trade show explicitly to seek out offerings. I have no choice with advertising invading all spaces I'm in and all media I consume. This is the difference - putting yourself out there to be found by those who seek, vs. shouting at everyone to pay attention to you.
        kasey_junk 8y ago
        What about sponsoring a talk where my product is mentioned?
        speedplane 8y ago
        Not sure I understand the difference between your definition of push/pull. Customers always try doing market research to find the nest value (pull). Companies always try to put their product in front of the customer (push). Literally, everything a company does is push, and everything a customer does is pull. Hell, even the act of making your widget in your basement is a push, you put the effort into making it so people would use it.
- BrandonM 8y ago
  Who generates the informational pamphlets that people read to learn about your product? Who goes to the trade shows where people seeking solutions might learn about your product? Who keeps an eye out for experts sincerely surveying a space to compare multiple solutions, ensuring that your product is considered? Marketers do all that stuff every day, and your system would still have them. You seem to be against advertising, which is a tiny subset of marketing.
jodrellblank 8y ago
Then let them go out of business. I reject the idea that I have to hear about ambulance chasing lawyers and diet pills and ways to make $$$ fast and cars I can't afford and watches I don't want and household cleaning products I don't trust and kitchen appliances I have no use for and websites solving problems I don't have.. because it's my responsibility to endure it so those poor businesses can continue existing. Like it's some kind of charity and I'm obliged to give them my attention just in case I'm part of their target market. Spare just 2 hours per month to ensure this Chigaco company sells more product. In the limit case, there are more companies and more products than I could learn about if all I did was watch advert show for the rest of my life. And they would be perfectly happy to waste the rest of my life showing me adverts because my life is meaningless to them compared to even $1 more profit. No.
- davidivadavid 8y ago
  Then your problem is with the targeting of advertising more than the idea of advertising. Which in itself is only a sliver of what marketing is.
  - jodrellblank 8y ago
    No, my problem is with the advertising itself. Consider a world with perfect targetted advertising. I would benefit from an XYZ in my life. Suddenly I am inundated with emails, phonecalls, text messages, instant messages, from a planet full of XYZ sellers. Every billboard I see, every surface, every YouTube advert, every radio intermission, every pre-film trailer, every in-film product placement, every web banner advert, every Windows start menu product placement, every smartphone iAd, every Spotify break, all adverts for an XYZ. More adverts for an XYZ than I can take in if I spent a month just watching them. I'm not magically happy with this state of affairs, just because the ads are relevant or precisely targetted. I am worse off, in fact, because of being creeped out by the targetting, and snowed under with the monotony and repetitive onslaught.
    - davidivadavid 8y ago
      Then I guess we differ on the idea of what "perfectly targetted" means. You're certainly not going to buy all XYZs, so XYZs vendor would be wasting dollars advertising the XYZs you're not going to buy. So it's not perfect. Perfectly targetted advertising would show you the one XYZ you are going to buy, and stop there.

You guys think too much inside the system as it is today. Without bullshit jobs there is no concept of "leads". People would just buy the service they need, and supposedly the best most utilitarian product would survive only based on that.

davidivadavid 8y ago
Yeah? And what would your boss do? Wait for customers to come in?
speedplane 8y ago
You make the best widget X in the market. Google's widget Y and Microsoft's widget Z are far inferior. You are in your bedroom, holding your newly invented widget X... now what?
- AstralStorm 8y ago
  In the proposed lack of marketing system, you take geographically local position and sell the products to clients that find them. Knowledge about the improved product spreads by word of mouth. If it is not much better, you will obviously lose to established competition in the long run but probably not disappear, just like Amazon hasn't killed local shops yet. The endgame is very similar still - one with higher reach and budget wins. Unless the competition is vastly superior.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  You post the news about it on your company's website. You show it on a trade show. People like it, buy it, the news spread, you get orders. Of course it won't work that way, because Google and Microsoft will spend shit ton of money spamming the Internet about their widgets, so yours dies in the noise. Therefore, you need to spend your money and time to shout louder and louder. This is what it means to be in a zero-sum game. Pure waste, which unfortunately cannot be stopped from within the system.
  - kasey_junk 8y ago
    “You show it on a trade show” You of course understand that is marketing right?
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      Yes, but it's pull, not push.
      - speedplane 8y ago
        Going to a trade show, and putting yourself in front of thousands of others, is definitely push. So is building a website, or doing any type of SEO. Even telling your friends or mom about your new cool widget is push... it's all necessary and it's all marketing.
        TeMPOraL 8y ago
        It's pull from customer's point of view. I go to a trade show explicitly to seek out offerings. I have no choice with advertising invading all spaces I'm in and all media I consume. This is the difference - putting yourself out there to be found by those who seek, vs. shouting at everyone to pay attention to you.
        kasey_junk 8y ago
        What about sponsoring a talk where my product is mentioned?
        speedplane 8y ago
        Not sure I understand the difference between your definition of push/pull. Customers always try doing market research to find the nest value (pull). Companies always try to put their product in front of the customer (push). Literally, everything a company does is push, and everything a customer does is pull. Hell, even the act of making your widget in your basement is a push, you put the effort into making it so people would use it.
BrandonM 8y ago
Who generates the informational pamphlets that people read to learn about your product? Who goes to the trade shows where people seeking solutions might learn about your product? Who keeps an eye out for experts sincerely surveying a space to compare multiple solutions, ensuring that your product is considered? Marketers do all that stuff every day, and your system would still have them. You seem to be against advertising, which is a tiny subset of marketing.

jodrellblank 8y ago

Then let them go out of business. I reject the idea that I have to hear about ambulance chasing lawyers and diet pills and ways to make $$$ fast and cars I can't afford and watches I don't want and household cleaning products I don't trust and kitchen appliances I have no use for and websites solving problems I don't have.. because it's my responsibility to endure it so those poor businesses can continue existing. Like it's some kind of charity and I'm obliged to give them my attention just in case I'm part of their target market. Spare just 2 hours per month to ensure this Chigaco company sells more product. In the limit case, there are more companies and more products than I could learn about if all I did was watch advert show for the rest of my life. And they would be perfectly happy to waste the rest of my life showing me adverts because my life is meaningless to them compared to even $1 more profit. No.

davidivadavid 8y ago
Then your problem is with the targeting of advertising more than the idea of advertising. Which in itself is only a sliver of what marketing is.
- jodrellblank 8y ago
  No, my problem is with the advertising itself. Consider a world with perfect targetted advertising. I would benefit from an XYZ in my life. Suddenly I am inundated with emails, phonecalls, text messages, instant messages, from a planet full of XYZ sellers. Every billboard I see, every surface, every YouTube advert, every radio intermission, every pre-film trailer, every in-film product placement, every web banner advert, every Windows start menu product placement, every smartphone iAd, every Spotify break, all adverts for an XYZ. More adverts for an XYZ than I can take in if I spent a month just watching them. I'm not magically happy with this state of affairs, just because the ads are relevant or precisely targetted. I am worse off, in fact, because of being creeped out by the targetting, and snowed under with the monotony and repetitive onslaught.
  - davidivadavid 8y ago
    Then I guess we differ on the idea of what "perfectly targetted" means. You're certainly not going to buy all XYZs, so XYZs vendor would be wasting dollars advertising the XYZs you're not going to buy. So it's not perfect. Perfectly targetted advertising would show you the one XYZ you are going to buy, and stop there.