5 ms·

Dutch citizen here, I have never seen something like this. To compare, here's a similar situation in The Netherlands: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5

by crote 8y ago

Dutch citizen here, I have never seen something like this. To compare, here's a similar situation in The Netherlands: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.09h,77.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2JH-h6mtHBJoXqqdSlFURw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.... Points of interest: - big solid white arrow, line-fade is nearly impossible - white-green sign indicating that the road is splitting - big shoulder in the continuation of the division - loads of grass instead of immediately using a metal barrier - gently rising metal barrier, so driving straight into it will result in something like this: http://cdn.brandweersassenheim.nl/large/269dezilkvangrail104.jpg http://cdn.brandweersassenheim.nl/large/269dezilkvangrail104... Same goal, but a completely different approach.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
The intersection in the Tesla crash is pretty sub par by US standards. Most highway off ramps are as you described. In space restricted areas we tend to use tons of reflectors then water/sand barrels or metal crumple barriers instead of gently rising barriers and a grass infield. In basically all cases where there's a lot of pavement that isn't a lane there's diagonal lines of some sort that make it very clear that there isn't a lane there. A good chunk of the time there's a rumble strip of some sort. In rural areas there's less signage, reflectors and barriers but the infield is usually grass, dirt or swampy depending on local climate. Edit: and I'm wrong because why?
- panopticon 8y ago
  Granted my experience is my own and shaped by the areas I've lived in, but I'd say the crash barrier is pretty standard by US standards. A few reflectors, a crumple barrier or some barrels and you've got a highway divider start! Certainly not as lengthy or as well marked as the Dutch example. This one I used to drive by in KC almost daily looks similar to the Tesla accident one (granted, this example does have some friendly arrows in the gore): https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,105.25h,71.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s49sPDnyE3H4GzmLkFSh7Mw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,1... I have also seen so many people crash into this one that they put up yellow hazard lights: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,176.81h,87.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIiyNEDTqkTgA5L0RcNP2Ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,17...
- Piskvorrr 8y ago
  I wouldn't think wrong, but it seems to imply "AVs need great roads or bad roads, on mediocre roads they might kill you for no obvious reason, gee, too bad." Such "pretends to work but actually doesn't", IMNSHO, would be far worse than "doesn't work there at all"
deleted 8y ago
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Symbiote 8y ago
I've tried to find something similar in an urban area in Britain, here's one in Birmingham: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.4901761,-1.889549,3a,69.6y,5.28h,87.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6i9YHY8EOq4wbkhMYGNzcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.4901761,-1.889549,3a,69.6y,5.... That fence wouldn't be fun to drive into at full speed, and the lane markings are worn, but it's still far less awful than a concrete wall.
- mcguire 8y ago
  At highway speeds, if that "fence" is strong enough to prevent vehicles from falling from the raised left lane into the lower right lanes, then it would seem likely to cut a car in two. I think I'd prefer the crash attenuator.
  - sveiss 8y ago
    That segment of the A38 has a 30MPH limit, with the right fork increasing to 50MPH. The dynamics of any crash would be very difficult.
hexane360 8y ago
This is pretty apples-to-oranges. You see things like this in a lot of less dense U.S. areas as well. But in the crash example, it's right in the middle of an interchange, with the lane needing to form and rise quickly. Additionally, the gently rising metal barriers aren't safe in many situations because of their ability to launch cars. That's why they've been replaced by crash attenuators and sand/water barrels. Unfortunately the crash attenuator wasn't replaced after a recent (<1 week ago) accident, ensuring the next accident was fatal. Here's an accurate U.S. analogue to your example: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0286482,-102.1517159,3a,75y,232.39h,77.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scBIOlp1Wc_R9nN9y3vN9ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0286482,-102.1517159,3a,75y,... Meanwhile, here's a Dutch example: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9305956,4.4371182,3a,75y,66.5h,68.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY4bBOC0sxpUHHPmR3re_4A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9305956,4.4371182,3a,75y,66.... Turns out sometimes you need crash attenuators because space isn't infinite. Also, there's no grass in sight here. Here's another example: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9239112,4.4203482,3a,67.8y,262.97h,77.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sle4g58-jOVO3_p38sV4GdA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9239112,4.4203482,3a,67.8y,2... No sloping barriers, because they're not always safer.
- crote 8y ago
  Well, yes and no. First, your counter-example is, ironically, pretty apples-to-oranges, as it is literally in the middle of nowhere. Meanwhile, the municipality where my interchange is located has a population density 1.5x that of Mountain View. About the A20: it was built around 1970, inspired by American designs. Something like this would probably not be built today. Meanwhile, the specific ramp where the accident occurred, was constructed around 2006. I do agree that safety measures should be adjusted according to their location, there is indeed no one-size-fits-all solution here.
  - hexane360 8y ago
    You're right that my first example is in the middle of nowhere, but there's a good reason for that. American and Dutch city designs differ so much to make them incomparable. Even NYC has 0.63 vehicles per household (http://www.governing.com/gov-data/car-ownership-numbers-of-vehicles-by-city-map.html http://www.governing.com/gov-data/car-ownership-numbers-of-v...), and San Jose (the closest to Mountain View I could find) has 2.12. There's a lot more traffic to deal with, and a lot more sprawl, meaning less space for interchanges and long ramps.
mcguire 8y ago
That's an interesting (and amusing) picture, but I'd expect many more incidents of a "gently rising metal barrier" causing a vehicle to roll over.
- zaarn 8y ago
  The metal barriers are usually quite safe and designed to absorb a lot of energy. (Plus rolling over is safer than crashing into concrete)
lsaferite 8y ago
Here's an example of a crash attenuator right near your example: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928978,5.1609792,3a,60y,305.82h,71.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxqB-tfss6s4BD3XLYWEZvQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928978,5.1609792,3a,60y,305.... Edit: Also, that gore is freshly painted. Here's the same gore with faded paint. Mind you, it wasn't as bad, but even there you get faded painting: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928706,5.1608083,3a,75y,109.05h,66.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKPcbjcPvjQ8_TOKVUoHKsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928706,5.1608083,3a,75y,109....
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

by crote 8y ago

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

The intersection in the Tesla crash is pretty sub par by US standards. Most highway off ramps are as you described. In space restricted areas we tend to use tons of reflectors then water/sand barrels or metal crumple barriers instead of gently rising barriers and a grass infield. In basically all cases where there's a lot of pavement that isn't a lane there's diagonal lines of some sort that make it very clear that there isn't a lane there. A good chunk of the time there's a rumble strip of some sort. In rural areas there's less signage, reflectors and barriers but the infield is usually grass, dirt or swampy depending on local climate. Edit: and I'm wrong because why?

panopticon 8y ago
Granted my experience is my own and shaped by the areas I've lived in, but I'd say the crash barrier is pretty standard by US standards. A few reflectors, a crumple barrier or some barrels and you've got a highway divider start! Certainly not as lengthy or as well marked as the Dutch example. This one I used to drive by in KC almost daily looks similar to the Tesla accident one (granted, this example does have some friendly arrows in the gore): https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,105.25h,71.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s49sPDnyE3H4GzmLkFSh7Mw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,1... I have also seen so many people crash into this one that they put up yellow hazard lights: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,176.81h,87.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIiyNEDTqkTgA5L0RcNP2Ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,17...
Piskvorrr 8y ago
I wouldn't think wrong, but it seems to imply "AVs need great roads or bad roads, on mediocre roads they might kill you for no obvious reason, gee, too bad." Such "pretends to work but actually doesn't", IMNSHO, would be far worse than "doesn't work there at all"

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Symbiote 8y ago

I've tried to find something similar in an urban area in Britain, here's one in Birmingham: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.4901761,-1.889549,3a,69.6y,5.28h,87.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6i9YHY8EOq4wbkhMYGNzcw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.4901761,-1.889549,3a,69.6y,5.... That fence wouldn't be fun to drive into at full speed, and the lane markings are worn, but it's still far less awful than a concrete wall.

mcguire 8y ago
At highway speeds, if that "fence" is strong enough to prevent vehicles from falling from the raised left lane into the lower right lanes, then it would seem likely to cut a car in two. I think I'd prefer the crash attenuator.
- sveiss 8y ago
  That segment of the A38 has a 30MPH limit, with the right fork increasing to 50MPH. The dynamics of any crash would be very difficult.

hexane360 8y ago

This is pretty apples-to-oranges. You see things like this in a lot of less dense U.S. areas as well. But in the crash example, it's right in the middle of an interchange, with the lane needing to form and rise quickly. Additionally, the gently rising metal barriers aren't safe in many situations because of their ability to launch cars. That's why they've been replaced by crash attenuators and sand/water barrels. Unfortunately the crash attenuator wasn't replaced after a recent (<1 week ago) accident, ensuring the next accident was fatal. Here's an accurate U.S. analogue to your example: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0286482,-102.1517159,3a,75y,232.39h,77.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scBIOlp1Wc_R9nN9y3vN9ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@41.0286482,-102.1517159,3a,75y,... Meanwhile, here's a Dutch example: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9305956,4.4371182,3a,75y,66.5h,68.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sY4bBOC0sxpUHHPmR3re_4A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9305956,4.4371182,3a,75y,66.... Turns out sometimes you need crash attenuators because space isn't infinite. Also, there's no grass in sight here. Here's another example: https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9239112,4.4203482,3a,67.8y,262.97h,77.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sle4g58-jOVO3_p38sV4GdA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9239112,4.4203482,3a,67.8y,2... No sloping barriers, because they're not always safer.

crote 8y ago
Well, yes and no. First, your counter-example is, ironically, pretty apples-to-oranges, as it is literally in the middle of nowhere. Meanwhile, the municipality where my interchange is located has a population density 1.5x that of Mountain View. About the A20: it was built around 1970, inspired by American designs. Something like this would probably not be built today. Meanwhile, the specific ramp where the accident occurred, was constructed around 2006. I do agree that safety measures should be adjusted according to their location, there is indeed no one-size-fits-all solution here.
- hexane360 8y ago
  You're right that my first example is in the middle of nowhere, but there's a good reason for that. American and Dutch city designs differ so much to make them incomparable. Even NYC has 0.63 vehicles per household (http://www.governing.com/gov-data/car-ownership-numbers-of-vehicles-by-city-map.html http://www.governing.com/gov-data/car-ownership-numbers-of-v...), and San Jose (the closest to Mountain View I could find) has 2.12. There's a lot more traffic to deal with, and a lot more sprawl, meaning less space for interchanges and long ramps.

mcguire 8y ago

That's an interesting (and amusing) picture, but I'd expect many more incidents of a "gently rising metal barrier" causing a vehicle to roll over.

zaarn 8y ago
The metal barriers are usually quite safe and designed to absorb a lot of energy. (Plus rolling over is safer than crashing into concrete)

lsaferite 8y ago

Here's an example of a crash attenuator right near your example: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928978,5.1609792,3a,60y,305.82h,71.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxqB-tfss6s4BD3XLYWEZvQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928978,5.1609792,3a,60y,305.... Edit: Also, that gore is freshly painted. Here's the same gore with faded paint. Mind you, it wasn't as bad, but even there you get faded painting: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928706,5.1608083,3a,75y,109.05h,66.44t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKPcbjcPvjQ8_TOKVUoHKsg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928706,5.1608083,3a,75y,109....

deleted 8y ago
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