8 ms·

Wow. The start of that concrete lane-divider looks incredibly dangerous for a highway. It pretty-much just "starts", with only some sort of object that they cal

by zo1 8y ago

Wow. The start of that concrete lane-divider looks incredibly dangerous for a highway. It pretty-much just "starts", with only some sort of object that they call a "crash attenuator" in front of it. I would imagine its purpose is to dampen/dissipate kinetic energy and maybe deflect oncoming objects from hitting the concrete slab directly. I don't even see any sort of road-bumps to warn drivers of this dangerous obstacle approaching.

wjamesg 8y ago
Agree. The area leading up to the barrier could at least be striped off.
- caf 8y ago
  Yes, I'd expect to see something like https://goo.gl/maps/dbp2fx79ihz https://goo.gl/maps/dbp2fx79ihz I could easily imagine a stressed human driver unfamiliar with the area following that unstriped gore area as a 'lane', too.
- prawn 8y ago
  And you'd think that basic paint striping would be comparably cheap. It's incredible that such a deadly point wouldn't have it.
panopticon 8y ago
Out of curiosity, are you not in the U.S.? These types of lane dividers are incredibly common throughout the country. Note that I'm not defending the safety of them; I'm just surprised to see someone call them out as a hazard as they're such a common sight.
- crote 8y ago
  Dutch citizen here, I have never seen something like this. To compare, here's a similar situation in The Netherlands: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.09h,77.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2JH-h6mtHBJoXqqdSlFURw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.... Points of interest: - big solid white arrow, line-fade is nearly impossible - white-green sign indicating that the road is splitting - big shoulder in the continuation of the division - loads of grass instead of immediately using a metal barrier - gently rising metal barrier, so driving straight into it will result in something like this: http://cdn.brandweersassenheim.nl/large/269dezilkvangrail104.jpg http://cdn.brandweersassenheim.nl/large/269dezilkvangrail104... Same goal, but a completely different approach.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    The intersection in the Tesla crash is pretty sub par by US standards. Most highway off ramps are as you described. In space restricted areas we tend to use tons of reflectors then water/sand barrels or metal crumple barriers instead of gently rising barriers and a grass infield. In basically all cases where there's a lot of pavement that isn't a lane there's diagonal lines of some sort that make it very clear that there isn't a lane there. A good chunk of the time there's a rumble strip of some sort. In rural areas there's less signage, reflectors and barriers but the infield is usually grass, dirt or swampy depending on local climate. Edit: and I'm wrong because why?
    - panopticon 8y ago
      Granted my experience is my own and shaped by the areas I've lived in, but I'd say the crash barrier is pretty standard by US standards. A few reflectors, a crumple barrier or some barrels and you've got a highway divider start! Certainly not as lengthy or as well marked as the Dutch example. This one I used to drive by in KC almost daily looks similar to the Tesla accident one (granted, this example does have some friendly arrows in the gore): https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,105.25h,71.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s49sPDnyE3H4GzmLkFSh7Mw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,1... I have also seen so many people crash into this one that they put up yellow hazard lights: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,176.81h,87.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIiyNEDTqkTgA5L0RcNP2Ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,17...
    - Piskvorrr 8y ago
      I wouldn't think wrong, but it seems to imply "AVs need great roads or bad roads, on mediocre roads they might kill you for no obvious reason, gee, too bad." Such "pretends to work but actually doesn't", IMNSHO, would be far worse than "doesn't work there at all"
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Symbiote 8y ago
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  Excessively long, unstriped gores are not at all common in the Eastern US. This is bad engineering and poor maintenance.
  - slededit 8y ago
    If anything the US tends towards far too little merge space than excessive. Almost every city has a blind yield entering the freeway somewhere.
    - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
      This is a problem with old highways that were upgraded to substandard interstates. That isn't the case here with plenty of room to build a safer design.
- zo1 8y ago
  I live in South Africa. We see items such as this more commonly: https://www.google.com/maps/@-25.833477,28.2391574,3a,75y,75.68h,69.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBDi8lst7PqI18fbBPonSHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@-25.833477,28.2391574,3a,75y,75... https://www.google.com/maps/@-25.8317095,28.2407035,3a,75y,75.68h,69.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sToVJ0Vj2O6lL-lcXOiU9cA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@-25.8317095,28.2407035,3a,75y,7... However, it's not consistent. Some end quite abruptly as well, and have a plain sign in the middle without any slowly-rising divider.
- metafunctor 8y ago
  I'm in the EU. This road does look a little bit hazardous to me; like it was designed 60 years ago and never updated. - The area one is not supposed to drive in doesn't appear to be marked. Where I live, it would be painted with yellow diagonal stripes. - On a high-speed road, there would be grooves on the road to generate noise if you are driving too close to the edge of the lane. - Paint on the road is rarely the only signal to the driver (because of snow or other conditions that may obscure road markings). There would be ample overhead signs. - Unusual obstacles would always be clearly visible: painted with reflective paint or using actual warning lights. - We rarely use concrete lane dividers here. Usually these areas consist of open space and a shallow ditch, so you don't necessarily crash hard if you end up driving in there. There's usually grass, bushes, etc. There are occasional lane dividers, of course, when there's no space to put in an open area. However, the dividers are made of metal and they are not hard obstacles and fold or turn your vehicle away if you hit them (and people rarely do because of the above). I'm sure there are some dangerous roads here, too, but a fatal concrete obstacle like this, with highway speeds, with almost no warning signs whatsoever, is almost unheard of.
vilhelm_s 8y ago
I had never heard of crash attenuators before, but they seem really impressive! This one was the "SCI smart cushion" model. According to the manual[1] it can reduce the acceleration from a collision at 100 km/h (63 mph) to less than 10G, so even a direct frontal collision at highway speed would be survivable[1]. That's pretty amazing. [0] http://4fhmzg4ct6wezwll3wmp9kl9.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/SCI_Smart_Cushion_Design_and_Installation_Manual_2015.pdf http://4fhmzg4ct6wezwll3wmp9kl9.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-c... [1] http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.212.5449&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.212...
dhruvrrp 8y ago
The crash attenuators are usually good enough to save people's lives. There are small grooves in the sides on some of the freeways in CA but they aren’t everywhere. The problem with the attenuators are that they don’t get replaced fast enough which makes these accidents a lot deadlier. You can see the difference between a used and unised attenuator in this article. http://abc7news.com/automotive/tesla-claims-missing-safety-barrier-played-role-in-deadly-crash/3272688/ http://abc7news.com/automotive/tesla-claims-missing-safety-b...

by zo1 8y ago

wjamesg 8y ago

Agree. The area leading up to the barrier could at least be striped off.

caf 8y ago
Yes, I'd expect to see something like https://goo.gl/maps/dbp2fx79ihz https://goo.gl/maps/dbp2fx79ihz I could easily imagine a stressed human driver unfamiliar with the area following that unstriped gore area as a 'lane', too.
prawn 8y ago
And you'd think that basic paint striping would be comparably cheap. It's incredible that such a deadly point wouldn't have it.

panopticon 8y ago

Out of curiosity, are you not in the U.S.? These types of lane dividers are incredibly common throughout the country. Note that I'm not defending the safety of them; I'm just surprised to see someone call them out as a hazard as they're such a common sight.

crote 8y ago
Dutch citizen here, I have never seen something like this. To compare, here's a similar situation in The Netherlands: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.09h,77.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2JH-h6mtHBJoXqqdSlFURw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.... Points of interest: - big solid white arrow, line-fade is nearly impossible - white-green sign indicating that the road is splitting - big shoulder in the continuation of the division - loads of grass instead of immediately using a metal barrier - gently rising metal barrier, so driving straight into it will result in something like this: http://cdn.brandweersassenheim.nl/large/269dezilkvangrail104.jpg http://cdn.brandweersassenheim.nl/large/269dezilkvangrail104... Same goal, but a completely different approach.
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  The intersection in the Tesla crash is pretty sub par by US standards. Most highway off ramps are as you described. In space restricted areas we tend to use tons of reflectors then water/sand barrels or metal crumple barriers instead of gently rising barriers and a grass infield. In basically all cases where there's a lot of pavement that isn't a lane there's diagonal lines of some sort that make it very clear that there isn't a lane there. A good chunk of the time there's a rumble strip of some sort. In rural areas there's less signage, reflectors and barriers but the infield is usually grass, dirt or swampy depending on local climate. Edit: and I'm wrong because why?
  - panopticon 8y ago
    Granted my experience is my own and shaped by the areas I've lived in, but I'd say the crash barrier is pretty standard by US standards. A few reflectors, a crumple barrier or some barrels and you've got a highway divider start! Certainly not as lengthy or as well marked as the Dutch example. This one I used to drive by in KC almost daily looks similar to the Tesla accident one (granted, this example does have some friendly arrows in the gore): https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,105.25h,71.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s49sPDnyE3H4GzmLkFSh7Mw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,1... I have also seen so many people crash into this one that they put up yellow hazard lights: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,176.81h,87.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIiyNEDTqkTgA5L0RcNP2Ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,17...
  - Piskvorrr 8y ago
    I wouldn't think wrong, but it seems to imply "AVs need great roads or bad roads, on mediocre roads they might kill you for no obvious reason, gee, too bad." Such "pretends to work but actually doesn't", IMNSHO, would be far worse than "doesn't work there at all"
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Symbiote 8y ago
kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
Excessively long, unstriped gores are not at all common in the Eastern US. This is bad engineering and poor maintenance.
- slededit 8y ago
  If anything the US tends towards far too little merge space than excessive. Almost every city has a blind yield entering the freeway somewhere.
  - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
    This is a problem with old highways that were upgraded to substandard interstates. That isn't the case here with plenty of room to build a safer design.
zo1 8y ago
I live in South Africa. We see items such as this more commonly: https://www.google.com/maps/@-25.833477,28.2391574,3a,75y,75.68h,69.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBDi8lst7PqI18fbBPonSHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@-25.833477,28.2391574,3a,75y,75... https://www.google.com/maps/@-25.8317095,28.2407035,3a,75y,75.68h,69.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sToVJ0Vj2O6lL-lcXOiU9cA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@-25.8317095,28.2407035,3a,75y,7... However, it's not consistent. Some end quite abruptly as well, and have a plain sign in the middle without any slowly-rising divider.
metafunctor 8y ago
I'm in the EU. This road does look a little bit hazardous to me; like it was designed 60 years ago and never updated. - The area one is not supposed to drive in doesn't appear to be marked. Where I live, it would be painted with yellow diagonal stripes. - On a high-speed road, there would be grooves on the road to generate noise if you are driving too close to the edge of the lane. - Paint on the road is rarely the only signal to the driver (because of snow or other conditions that may obscure road markings). There would be ample overhead signs. - Unusual obstacles would always be clearly visible: painted with reflective paint or using actual warning lights. - We rarely use concrete lane dividers here. Usually these areas consist of open space and a shallow ditch, so you don't necessarily crash hard if you end up driving in there. There's usually grass, bushes, etc. There are occasional lane dividers, of course, when there's no space to put in an open area. However, the dividers are made of metal and they are not hard obstacles and fold or turn your vehicle away if you hit them (and people rarely do because of the above). I'm sure there are some dangerous roads here, too, but a fatal concrete obstacle like this, with highway speeds, with almost no warning signs whatsoever, is almost unheard of.

vilhelm_s 8y ago

I had never heard of crash attenuators before, but they seem really impressive! This one was the "SCI smart cushion" model. According to the manual[1] it can reduce the acceleration from a collision at 100 km/h (63 mph) to less than 10G, so even a direct frontal collision at highway speed would be survivable[1]. That's pretty amazing. [0] http://4fhmzg4ct6wezwll3wmp9kl9.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/SCI_Smart_Cushion_Design_and_Installation_Manual_2015.pdf http://4fhmzg4ct6wezwll3wmp9kl9.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-c... [1] http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.212.5449&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.212...

dhruvrrp 8y ago

The crash attenuators are usually good enough to save people's lives. There are small grooves in the sides on some of the freeways in CA but they aren’t everywhere. The problem with the attenuators are that they don’t get replaced fast enough which makes these accidents a lot deadlier. You can see the difference between a used and unised attenuator in this article. http://abc7news.com/automotive/tesla-claims-missing-safety-barrier-played-role-in-deadly-crash/3272688/ http://abc7news.com/automotive/tesla-claims-missing-safety-b...