7 ms·

> The paint on the right edge of the gore marking, as seen in Google Maps, is worn Indeed; here's a close-up of the critical area. Note that the darker stripe

by raldi 8y ago

> The paint on the right edge of the gore marking, as seen in Google Maps, is worn Indeed; here's a close-up of the critical area. Note that the darker stripe on the bottom of the photo is NOT the crucial one; the one that the car was supposed to follow is the much more faded one above that that you can barely see: https://www.google.com/maps/@37.410912,-122.0757037,3a,75y,205.08h,52.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjXdU2LMnTz4QQshWHKU0Tg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 https://www.google.com/maps/@37.410912,-122.0757037,3a,75y,2... (Note that I'm not blaming the faded paint; it's a totally normal situation on freeways that it's entirely the job of the self-driving car to handle correctly. But I think it was what triggered this fatal flaw.)

zo1 8y ago
Wow. The start of that concrete lane-divider looks incredibly dangerous for a highway. It pretty-much just "starts", with only some sort of object that they call a "crash attenuator" in front of it. I would imagine its purpose is to dampen/dissipate kinetic energy and maybe deflect oncoming objects from hitting the concrete slab directly. I don't even see any sort of road-bumps to warn drivers of this dangerous obstacle approaching.
- wjamesg 8y ago
  Agree. The area leading up to the barrier could at least be striped off.
  - caf 8y ago
    Yes, I'd expect to see something like https://goo.gl/maps/dbp2fx79ihz https://goo.gl/maps/dbp2fx79ihz I could easily imagine a stressed human driver unfamiliar with the area following that unstriped gore area as a 'lane', too.
  - prawn 8y ago
    And you'd think that basic paint striping would be comparably cheap. It's incredible that such a deadly point wouldn't have it.
- panopticon 8y ago
  Out of curiosity, are you not in the U.S.? These types of lane dividers are incredibly common throughout the country. Note that I'm not defending the safety of them; I'm just surprised to see someone call them out as a hazard as they're such a common sight.
  - crote 8y ago
    Dutch citizen here, I have never seen something like this. To compare, here's a similar situation in The Netherlands: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.09h,77.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2JH-h6mtHBJoXqqdSlFURw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.... Points of interest: - big solid white arrow, line-fade is nearly impossible - white-green sign indicating that the road is splitting - big shoulder in the continuation of the division - loads of grass instead of immediately using a metal barrier - gently rising metal barrier, so driving straight into it will result in something like this: http://cdn.brandweersassenheim.nl/large/269dezilkvangrail104.jpg http://cdn.brandweersassenheim.nl/large/269dezilkvangrail104... Same goal, but a completely different approach.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      The intersection in the Tesla crash is pretty sub par by US standards. Most highway off ramps are as you described. In space restricted areas we tend to use tons of reflectors then water/sand barrels or metal crumple barriers instead of gently rising barriers and a grass infield. In basically all cases where there's a lot of pavement that isn't a lane there's diagonal lines of some sort that make it very clear that there isn't a lane there. A good chunk of the time there's a rumble strip of some sort. In rural areas there's less signage, reflectors and barriers but the infield is usually grass, dirt or swampy depending on local climate. Edit: and I'm wrong because why?
      - panopticon 8y ago
        Granted my experience is my own and shaped by the areas I've lived in, but I'd say the crash barrier is pretty standard by US standards. A few reflectors, a crumple barrier or some barrels and you've got a highway divider start! Certainly not as lengthy or as well marked as the Dutch example. This one I used to drive by in KC almost daily looks similar to the Tesla accident one (granted, this example does have some friendly arrows in the gore): https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,105.25h,71.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s49sPDnyE3H4GzmLkFSh7Mw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,1... I have also seen so many people crash into this one that they put up yellow hazard lights: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,176.81h,87.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIiyNEDTqkTgA5L0RcNP2Ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,17...
- vilhelm_s 8y ago
  I had never heard of crash attenuators before, but they seem really impressive! This one was the "SCI smart cushion" model. According to the manual[1] it can reduce the acceleration from a collision at 100 km/h (63 mph) to less than 10G, so even a direct frontal collision at highway speed would be survivable[1]. That's pretty amazing. [0] http://4fhmzg4ct6wezwll3wmp9kl9.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/SCI_Smart_Cushion_Design_and_Installation_Manual_2015.pdf http://4fhmzg4ct6wezwll3wmp9kl9.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-c... [1] http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.212.5449&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.212...
- dhruvrrp 8y ago
  The crash attenuators are usually good enough to save people's lives. There are small grooves in the sides on some of the freeways in CA but they aren’t everywhere. The problem with the attenuators are that they don’t get replaced fast enough which makes these accidents a lot deadlier. You can see the difference between a used and unised attenuator in this article. http://abc7news.com/automotive/tesla-claims-missing-safety-barrier-played-role-in-deadly-crash/3272688/ http://abc7news.com/automotive/tesla-claims-missing-safety-b...
metafunctor 8y ago
Are these kinds of lane-dividers not painted with heavy yellow diagonal stripes in the US? Is the divider equipped with reflective material and/or lights to make sure drivers notice it? Is the divider actually necessary, or could it be replaced with gravel so people don't need to hit a concrete wall when they make a mistake? I don't think a road like this would be possible in most of the EU. Autopilot needs to be fixed, but this road is also super dangerous and probably would not be allowed in the EU. How often do non-autopilot cars fatally crash here? This does look like a bit of death trap to me!
- jacquesm 8y ago
  > I don't think a road like this would be possible in most of the EU. I've driven in almost all countries in the union and I'm sure that and worse is readily available in multiple EU countries. While it's true that the EU subsidizes a lot of road construction local conditions (materials quality, theft, sloppy contractors) have a huge impact on road and markings quality.
  - metafunctor 8y ago
    Hmm, "possible" was probably too strong of a word. Of course it's possible. However, I've driven a significant number of hours in Spain, Switzerland, Germany, UK, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, and I wouldn't say that this kind of concrete divider is "readily available" as a normal part of a high-speed road, lacking the high-visibility markings I outlined in the post above, year after year as a normal fixture. In fact, I don't remember ever once seeing a concrete divider like this in the EU, even temporarily, but please prove me wrong (and maybe we can tell them to fix it!). At highway speeds, lane dividers are only used when there is a lane traveling in the opposing direction right next to you. There is no point in concrete dividers if all the traffic is traveling in the same direction. At highway speeds, opposing lanes should be divided by a lot of open space and metal fences that don't kill you when you hit them.
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      Try: Poland, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, Slovenia, Slowakia, Czech Republic. Those are also part of the EU and road quality there varies wildly from the countries you use as your examples.
alejohausner 8y ago
I have noticed that, on two-lane non-divided roads, the dividing line (separating you from oncoming traffic) is yellow, while the right-side solid line is white. White means it's safe to cross the line, but yellow means it's dangerous to cross it. You can see that yellow line at the accident site. Now, why didn't they start a new yellow line where the lane split? That would give drivers (and software) an important cue: if you are driving down a "lane" with a yellow line on the right, something is seriously wrong!
- raldi 8y ago
  In the United States, "A yellow line (solid or dashed) indicates that crossing the line will place a driver in a lane where opposing traffic is coming at the driver." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_line_(road_marking)#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_line_(road_marking)#Uni...

by raldi 8y ago

zo1 8y ago

Wow. The start of that concrete lane-divider looks incredibly dangerous for a highway. It pretty-much just "starts", with only some sort of object that they call a "crash attenuator" in front of it. I would imagine its purpose is to dampen/dissipate kinetic energy and maybe deflect oncoming objects from hitting the concrete slab directly. I don't even see any sort of road-bumps to warn drivers of this dangerous obstacle approaching.

wjamesg 8y ago
Agree. The area leading up to the barrier could at least be striped off.
- caf 8y ago
  Yes, I'd expect to see something like https://goo.gl/maps/dbp2fx79ihz https://goo.gl/maps/dbp2fx79ihz I could easily imagine a stressed human driver unfamiliar with the area following that unstriped gore area as a 'lane', too.
- prawn 8y ago
  And you'd think that basic paint striping would be comparably cheap. It's incredible that such a deadly point wouldn't have it.
panopticon 8y ago
Out of curiosity, are you not in the U.S.? These types of lane dividers are incredibly common throughout the country. Note that I'm not defending the safety of them; I'm just surprised to see someone call them out as a hazard as they're such a common sight.
- crote 8y ago
  Dutch citizen here, I have never seen something like this. To compare, here's a similar situation in The Netherlands: https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.09h,77.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2JH-h6mtHBJoXqqdSlFURw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.nl/maps/@52.0928662,5.1734685,3a,75y,281.... Points of interest: - big solid white arrow, line-fade is nearly impossible - white-green sign indicating that the road is splitting - big shoulder in the continuation of the division - loads of grass instead of immediately using a metal barrier - gently rising metal barrier, so driving straight into it will result in something like this: http://cdn.brandweersassenheim.nl/large/269dezilkvangrail104.jpg http://cdn.brandweersassenheim.nl/large/269dezilkvangrail104... Same goal, but a completely different approach.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    The intersection in the Tesla crash is pretty sub par by US standards. Most highway off ramps are as you described. In space restricted areas we tend to use tons of reflectors then water/sand barrels or metal crumple barriers instead of gently rising barriers and a grass infield. In basically all cases where there's a lot of pavement that isn't a lane there's diagonal lines of some sort that make it very clear that there isn't a lane there. A good chunk of the time there's a rumble strip of some sort. In rural areas there's less signage, reflectors and barriers but the infield is usually grass, dirt or swampy depending on local climate. Edit: and I'm wrong because why?
    - panopticon 8y ago
      Granted my experience is my own and shaped by the areas I've lived in, but I'd say the crash barrier is pretty standard by US standards. A few reflectors, a crumple barrier or some barrels and you've got a highway divider start! Certainly not as lengthy or as well marked as the Dutch example. This one I used to drive by in KC almost daily looks similar to the Tesla accident one (granted, this example does have some friendly arrows in the gore): https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,105.25h,71.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s49sPDnyE3H4GzmLkFSh7Mw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0387093,-94.6774548,3a,75y,1... I have also seen so many people crash into this one that they put up yellow hazard lights: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,176.81h,87.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIiyNEDTqkTgA5L0RcNP2Ew!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0790636,-94.594365,3a,75y,17...
vilhelm_s 8y ago
I had never heard of crash attenuators before, but they seem really impressive! This one was the "SCI smart cushion" model. According to the manual[1] it can reduce the acceleration from a collision at 100 km/h (63 mph) to less than 10G, so even a direct frontal collision at highway speed would be survivable[1]. That's pretty amazing. [0] http://4fhmzg4ct6wezwll3wmp9kl9.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/SCI_Smart_Cushion_Design_and_Installation_Manual_2015.pdf http://4fhmzg4ct6wezwll3wmp9kl9.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-c... [1] http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.212.5449&rep=rep1&type=pdf http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.212...
dhruvrrp 8y ago
The crash attenuators are usually good enough to save people's lives. There are small grooves in the sides on some of the freeways in CA but they aren’t everywhere. The problem with the attenuators are that they don’t get replaced fast enough which makes these accidents a lot deadlier. You can see the difference between a used and unised attenuator in this article. http://abc7news.com/automotive/tesla-claims-missing-safety-barrier-played-role-in-deadly-crash/3272688/ http://abc7news.com/automotive/tesla-claims-missing-safety-b...

metafunctor 8y ago

Are these kinds of lane-dividers not painted with heavy yellow diagonal stripes in the US? Is the divider equipped with reflective material and/or lights to make sure drivers notice it? Is the divider actually necessary, or could it be replaced with gravel so people don't need to hit a concrete wall when they make a mistake? I don't think a road like this would be possible in most of the EU. Autopilot needs to be fixed, but this road is also super dangerous and probably would not be allowed in the EU. How often do non-autopilot cars fatally crash here? This does look like a bit of death trap to me!

jacquesm 8y ago
> I don't think a road like this would be possible in most of the EU. I've driven in almost all countries in the union and I'm sure that and worse is readily available in multiple EU countries. While it's true that the EU subsidizes a lot of road construction local conditions (materials quality, theft, sloppy contractors) have a huge impact on road and markings quality.
- metafunctor 8y ago
  Hmm, "possible" was probably too strong of a word. Of course it's possible. However, I've driven a significant number of hours in Spain, Switzerland, Germany, UK, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Estonia, and I wouldn't say that this kind of concrete divider is "readily available" as a normal part of a high-speed road, lacking the high-visibility markings I outlined in the post above, year after year as a normal fixture. In fact, I don't remember ever once seeing a concrete divider like this in the EU, even temporarily, but please prove me wrong (and maybe we can tell them to fix it!). At highway speeds, lane dividers are only used when there is a lane traveling in the opposing direction right next to you. There is no point in concrete dividers if all the traffic is traveling in the same direction. At highway speeds, opposing lanes should be divided by a lot of open space and metal fences that don't kill you when you hit them.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    Try: Poland, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Greece, Slovenia, Slowakia, Czech Republic. Those are also part of the EU and road quality there varies wildly from the countries you use as your examples.

alejohausner 8y ago

I have noticed that, on two-lane non-divided roads, the dividing line (separating you from oncoming traffic) is yellow, while the right-side solid line is white. White means it's safe to cross the line, but yellow means it's dangerous to cross it. You can see that yellow line at the accident site. Now, why didn't they start a new yellow line where the lane split? That would give drivers (and software) an important cue: if you are driving down a "lane" with a yellow line on the right, something is seriously wrong!

raldi 8y ago
In the United States, "A yellow line (solid or dashed) indicates that crossing the line will place a driver in a lane where opposing traffic is coming at the driver." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_line_(road_marking)#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellow_line_(road_marking)#Uni...