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People here are commenting that NYC is quite an expensive place to live off donations. I'm not sure what advantages that the location brings when working on a

People here are commenting that NYC is quite an expensive place to live off donations. I'm not sure what advantages that the location brings when working on a programming language (networking?), but I can suggest moving to South Africa where cost of living is low and quality of life is high. Yeah there's "crime" -- but it's not too bad as long as you're a little smart about the way you conduct yourself. Cape Town is an obvious first choice and is really cosmopolitan with a good dev community, but I can suggest Durban as a good runner up; it was recently voted "Most Livable City in South Africa" [0] For New York level "hole-in-a-wall" rentals, you can live like a king in South Africa :) If you're willing to share a spot you can really get a palace for yourself, and enjoy some of the best beaches in the world (in Durban). [0] https://www.iol.co.za/mercury/news/durban-is-most-liveable-city-in-south-africa-13963052 https://www.iol.co.za/mercury/news/durban-is-most-liveable-c...

komali2 8y ago
New Zealand is also making a big push to bring in tech workers, with some amiable visas. I see their immigration department at tech conferences all the time. From personal experience, I can tell you that Taiwan is a fantastic place as well. Lots of engineers, absurdly low cost of living for the civic amenities (which blow away even the best that San Francisco or New York can offer), and gorgeous nature if you're into that. If you manage to learn Mandarin it'll greatly expand your access to the programming community there, but if not there's plenty of English speakers and just expats.
- jeffreyrogers 8y ago
  I was in Taiwan recently and it is a lovely country, but talking to some friends who work there (in non-tech jobs) they said there is a large brain drain to mainland China. Has this been your experience? I'd imagine salaries are substantially lower than what someone would make in the US, even after factoring in cost of living.
  - komali2 8y ago
    Speculation among my Taiwanese friends is that the "brain drain" rumor is raw propaganda from the PRC government. Very few Taiwanese people would give up the freedoms they have in Taiwan for a move to China, just because they might get paid more. There probably should be a (unbiased) study done, but it does not match my experience. Taiwan does get shitloads of Chinese people coming in to work, though. Taiwanese salaries are substantially lower, yes, especially for Taiwanese. Furthermore, they have an unhealthy, ineffective work culture reminiscent of Japan. These issues need to be worked out and it is a long term plan of mine to tackle this head on and very publicly when I start a business there. For expats, there's no need to participate in this work culture if you don't work at a majority Taiwanese company, and if you do work at such a company, you can simply annoy your coworkers by leaving at 5, you most likely won't be fired over it but will need to withstand peer pressure. Visibly Asian-heritage expats will experience this even more. The best case scenario is the one we're discussing in the main thread - expat working internationally, but remote.
- ChristianGeek 8y ago
  New Zealand’s cost of living isn’t nearly as great as it used to be (it’s actually slightly higher than the U.S.), primarily thanks to the influx of Chinese investors.
overcast 8y ago
There is plenty of economical cities to move to in the States, without packing up everything and moving to another continent. Even just heading up state to somewhere like Rochester is a smart choice. Cheap cost of living, great lakes, finger lakes, amazing cocktail and food scene.
asdfman123 8y ago
You can also live in Anywhere, USA if you're not willing to be that adventurous. It's cheap, too. I worked remotely in Yakima, Washington, which means I could still fly home and visit Seattle from time to time. Then again, some people love the adventure of moving to another country, and I encourage them to pursue that if that's what they want. That's all moot though because the Zig guy said elsewhere he'll probably be following his girlfriend who's about to graduate.
- passivepinetree 8y ago
  Well, then you have to live in Yakima! ;) There are excellent inexpensive places to live in Washington that offer a lot more than Yakima does. Spokane, for example, is still very inexpensive compared to Seattle and offers a lot more in terms of both city life and accessible outdoor activities. It's too bad the dev scene there is pretty limited (Itron and Seven2 are really the only companies that I can think of off the top of my ahead employing devs, and the salaries are nothing to write home about). Of course, if you're doing remote work anyway, this isn't really an issue.
  - asdfman123 8y ago
    Yep, I was following my now fiancee. There are a lot of great mid-size cities out there--a hundred of them to choose from--and they're all cheap. There's this prevailing attitude by city dwellers that living outside of NY, SF, Seattle, or <insert your tech hub here> is death, but that is an attitude borne from a lack of experience about life. Life is sometimes great in midsize cities, and in many ways they offer more for less.
    - datalus 8y ago
      As someone who is leaving Austin soon, this hits... home. And it just took enough life experience to arrive at this conclusion.
      - ex_ex_nihilo 8y ago
kevin_b_er 8y ago
Durban's crime appears to have a homicide rate per capita equivalent or a bit higher to that of NYC in 1990 during the height of the crack cocaine epidemic.
matdehaast 8y ago
@Nsomaru are you living in Cape Town/South Africa?
- nsomaru 8y ago
  I've lived there a few years. Move around more now.
driverdan 8y ago
Most people who live in cities don't realize how inexpensive it can be to live in the US. For example, I lived a spartan but comfortable life in Rochester, NY for well under $20k/year. That was renting an expensive-for-the-area apt in a nice neighborhood. When I had roommates my rent was <$250/m. You can buy a house in Rochester for under $20k.
- ictoan 8y ago
  It can be inexpensive in terms of rent but you will need to pay for transportation (i.e. car and gas) to live in the US. I lived in Budapest and Chiang Mai, Thailand before and the advantage of these cities is that you can pretty much walk anywhere or pay little for private/public transportation. Food is everywhere and you're not stuck in the middle of nowhere. The cost of owning a car is part of the living expense... so it's not just rent. And FYI, I had a nice studio in Chiang Mai for less than $250 a month. It was professionally cleaned every week and the place was just steps away from cafes and grocery stores. No cars required.
- ChristianGeek 8y ago
  Given the weather in Rochester, what were your utility costs?!
  - driverdan 8y ago
    It depends on the home and the method you use to heat. Many houses in Rochester pre-date modern insulation and cost a lot to heat. That said, there are plenty of reasonably priced newer homes with good insulation available. The last place I lived was well insulated and cost <$150/m to heat in the worst conditions.
alanz1223 8y ago
From an outsiders perspective with all the legislature and politics governing it S.A wouldn't be my first choice. Midwest U.S is still very comfortable and you don't have to move countries or as a last resort maybe I'd go somewhere in Latin America. If he is confident that he can manage to quit his job while making less than 1k a month for now, then even $10/hr part time job of less than 25 hours a week would be a great boost
- acjohnson55 8y ago
  I don't know about that. As a freelancing expat, you could probably avoid truly being impacted by South African politics. The politics of much of the Midwest aren't exactly stellar. Especially in the most affordable parts. Lastly, as cheap as the Midwest is, bang for the buck in South Africa is far more exciting. I'm not an expert on S.A., but I have been there. And I spent the first 21 years of my life in the Midwest.
fernly 8y ago
Well if we're gonna give Andrew suggestions on places to emigrate, S.A. -- like N.Z. -- has the advantage of English as a first language. BUT if Andrew and S.O. have any Spanish, they shouldn't overlook the often-overlooked country of Uruguay. From[1], > Uruguay is ranked first in Latin America in democracy, peace, low perception of corruption, e-government, and is first in South America when it comes to press freedom, size of the middle class and prosperity... Nearly 95% of Uruguay's electricity comes from renewable energy, mostly hydroelectric facilities and wind parks... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay
ansible 8y ago
Cape Town, in the recent past may have been a good choice, but not so much this year. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/02/cape-town-running-out-of-water-drought-taps-shutoff-other-cities/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/02/cape-town-runnin...

komali2 8y ago

New Zealand is also making a big push to bring in tech workers, with some amiable visas. I see their immigration department at tech conferences all the time. From personal experience, I can tell you that Taiwan is a fantastic place as well. Lots of engineers, absurdly low cost of living for the civic amenities (which blow away even the best that San Francisco or New York can offer), and gorgeous nature if you're into that. If you manage to learn Mandarin it'll greatly expand your access to the programming community there, but if not there's plenty of English speakers and just expats.

jeffreyrogers 8y ago
I was in Taiwan recently and it is a lovely country, but talking to some friends who work there (in non-tech jobs) they said there is a large brain drain to mainland China. Has this been your experience? I'd imagine salaries are substantially lower than what someone would make in the US, even after factoring in cost of living.
- komali2 8y ago
  Speculation among my Taiwanese friends is that the "brain drain" rumor is raw propaganda from the PRC government. Very few Taiwanese people would give up the freedoms they have in Taiwan for a move to China, just because they might get paid more. There probably should be a (unbiased) study done, but it does not match my experience. Taiwan does get shitloads of Chinese people coming in to work, though. Taiwanese salaries are substantially lower, yes, especially for Taiwanese. Furthermore, they have an unhealthy, ineffective work culture reminiscent of Japan. These issues need to be worked out and it is a long term plan of mine to tackle this head on and very publicly when I start a business there. For expats, there's no need to participate in this work culture if you don't work at a majority Taiwanese company, and if you do work at such a company, you can simply annoy your coworkers by leaving at 5, you most likely won't be fired over it but will need to withstand peer pressure. Visibly Asian-heritage expats will experience this even more. The best case scenario is the one we're discussing in the main thread - expat working internationally, but remote.
ChristianGeek 8y ago
New Zealand’s cost of living isn’t nearly as great as it used to be (it’s actually slightly higher than the U.S.), primarily thanks to the influx of Chinese investors.

overcast 8y ago

There is plenty of economical cities to move to in the States, without packing up everything and moving to another continent. Even just heading up state to somewhere like Rochester is a smart choice. Cheap cost of living, great lakes, finger lakes, amazing cocktail and food scene.

asdfman123 8y ago

You can also live in Anywhere, USA if you're not willing to be that adventurous. It's cheap, too. I worked remotely in Yakima, Washington, which means I could still fly home and visit Seattle from time to time. Then again, some people love the adventure of moving to another country, and I encourage them to pursue that if that's what they want. That's all moot though because the Zig guy said elsewhere he'll probably be following his girlfriend who's about to graduate.

passivepinetree 8y ago
Well, then you have to live in Yakima! ;) There are excellent inexpensive places to live in Washington that offer a lot more than Yakima does. Spokane, for example, is still very inexpensive compared to Seattle and offers a lot more in terms of both city life and accessible outdoor activities. It's too bad the dev scene there is pretty limited (Itron and Seven2 are really the only companies that I can think of off the top of my ahead employing devs, and the salaries are nothing to write home about). Of course, if you're doing remote work anyway, this isn't really an issue.
- asdfman123 8y ago
  Yep, I was following my now fiancee. There are a lot of great mid-size cities out there--a hundred of them to choose from--and they're all cheap. There's this prevailing attitude by city dwellers that living outside of NY, SF, Seattle, or <insert your tech hub here> is death, but that is an attitude borne from a lack of experience about life. Life is sometimes great in midsize cities, and in many ways they offer more for less.
  - datalus 8y ago
    As someone who is leaving Austin soon, this hits... home. And it just took enough life experience to arrive at this conclusion.
    - ex_ex_nihilo 8y ago

kevin_b_er 8y ago

Durban's crime appears to have a homicide rate per capita equivalent or a bit higher to that of NYC in 1990 during the height of the crack cocaine epidemic.

matdehaast 8y ago

@Nsomaru are you living in Cape Town/South Africa?

nsomaru 8y ago
I've lived there a few years. Move around more now.

driverdan 8y ago

Most people who live in cities don't realize how inexpensive it can be to live in the US. For example, I lived a spartan but comfortable life in Rochester, NY for well under $20k/year. That was renting an expensive-for-the-area apt in a nice neighborhood. When I had roommates my rent was <$250/m. You can buy a house in Rochester for under $20k.

ictoan 8y ago
It can be inexpensive in terms of rent but you will need to pay for transportation (i.e. car and gas) to live in the US. I lived in Budapest and Chiang Mai, Thailand before and the advantage of these cities is that you can pretty much walk anywhere or pay little for private/public transportation. Food is everywhere and you're not stuck in the middle of nowhere. The cost of owning a car is part of the living expense... so it's not just rent. And FYI, I had a nice studio in Chiang Mai for less than $250 a month. It was professionally cleaned every week and the place was just steps away from cafes and grocery stores. No cars required.
ChristianGeek 8y ago
Given the weather in Rochester, what were your utility costs?!
- driverdan 8y ago
  It depends on the home and the method you use to heat. Many houses in Rochester pre-date modern insulation and cost a lot to heat. That said, there are plenty of reasonably priced newer homes with good insulation available. The last place I lived was well insulated and cost <$150/m to heat in the worst conditions.

alanz1223 8y ago

From an outsiders perspective with all the legislature and politics governing it S.A wouldn't be my first choice. Midwest U.S is still very comfortable and you don't have to move countries or as a last resort maybe I'd go somewhere in Latin America. If he is confident that he can manage to quit his job while making less than 1k a month for now, then even $10/hr part time job of less than 25 hours a week would be a great boost

acjohnson55 8y ago
I don't know about that. As a freelancing expat, you could probably avoid truly being impacted by South African politics. The politics of much of the Midwest aren't exactly stellar. Especially in the most affordable parts. Lastly, as cheap as the Midwest is, bang for the buck in South Africa is far more exciting. I'm not an expert on S.A., but I have been there. And I spent the first 21 years of my life in the Midwest.

fernly 8y ago

Well if we're gonna give Andrew suggestions on places to emigrate, S.A. -- like N.Z. -- has the advantage of English as a first language. BUT if Andrew and S.O. have any Spanish, they shouldn't overlook the often-overlooked country of Uruguay. From[1], > Uruguay is ranked first in Latin America in democracy, peace, low perception of corruption, e-government, and is first in South America when it comes to press freedom, size of the middle class and prosperity... Nearly 95% of Uruguay's electricity comes from renewable energy, mostly hydroelectric facilities and wind parks... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uruguay

ansible 8y ago

Cape Town, in the recent past may have been a good choice, but not so much this year. https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/02/cape-town-running-out-of-water-drought-taps-shutoff-other-cities/ https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/02/cape-town-runnin...