4 ms·

We're not talking about hiring some interns and giving them room to fail here. If I hire your firm and you tell me you can achieve an objective, then I spend m

We're not talking about hiring some interns and giving them room to fail here. If I hire your firm and you tell me you can achieve an objective, then I spend money and come to find out you can't and you knew you couldn't, you've defrauded me. If I ask if you can perform a task and you tell me you know how, then I find out you have no idea, you've lied to me. I'll take a "No, but I can figure it out" any day of the week, but lying is a cardinal sin in any relationship.

carlmr 8y ago
>I'll take a "No, but I can figure it out" any day of the week, but lying is a cardinal sin in any relationship. ...in western business culture.
- v_lisivka 8y ago
  ... in Christianity.
  - carlmr 8y ago
    How so? Southern Europe is very relaxed in this sense culturally, and it's the most religiously Christian part of Europe at the same time. While atheist northern and central Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Switzerland) place a lot of emphasis on reliability. Sure you could argue that these nations are culturally Christian, but Christian culture still doesn't imply an emphasis on reliability. At most I might agree with this being a case of the protestant work ethic, which seems to have a high correlation here (northern and central Europe as well as America is very much protestant, southern Europe is more catholic and orthodox). However first of all most historians agree it's false, and second you get places like Germany, where the economic powerhouse is the catholic south (Baden-Württemberg has Porsche, Daimler (Mercedes), Audi and Bosch, Bayern (Bavaria) has BMW, the protestant North and East are more poor).
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Lying is specifically spoken against in the New Testament [paraphrasing: "let your yes be yes"; and "be beyond reproach"]. AIUI lying is allowed in Hinduism [the means justify the end] and in Islam [if it furthers Islam, it can't be wrong]. However, just because it's lauded in Christian writings and by Christians doesn't mean that Christians are any better in this respect than others, "we are all sinners and fall short of God's glory" afterall. I imagine Buddhism to have a similar focus on truth?
- PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
  ...in any culture where you want trust and reliability. If someone doesn't want to be reliable, that's their choice, but don't expect me to be willing to engage in business with them.
  - BrandonM 8y ago
    I only realized when I started traveling internationally how much we (perhaps over-) value reliability in the US. We really pay a lot in terms of work hours and stress to gain what is sometimes marginally more predictability and reliability. In Mexico, Belize, southeast Asia, and southern Europe, I found everything to be much less reliable than I was used to. Everyone spent a lot time more waiting around. But I felt happier and more relaxed, and the people around me seemed to as well. I think it might be more cultural than you seem to think.
    - otakucode 8y ago
      It might be an artifact of the system-centric nature of our culture. We seek to reduce everything to predictable absolute rulesets, to make things regular and reliable and tractable. I'm not sure if this comes primarily from the Industrial era and mass-manufacturing which has a tremendous conformity component, or whether it comes mostly from the more recent advent of computers. We so easily accede to someone who says "its policy" without considering that the person involved clearly outranks whatever policy is being dealt with. Perhaps we've not been burned by strict adherence to policy and expecting the world to be regular and predictable as recently as those other cultures. It might just be a temporary thing, but I don't know. We've got things like "personal space" which were a very American concept for a long time, but which has since spread, almost certainly with many negative consequences, widely. So maybe this desire for people to accommodate systems rather than for systems to accommodate people will spread too. We're screwed if that's the case.
- michaelcampbell 8y ago
  ...which is clearly the context of the discussion.
kamaal 8y ago
We are not talking about those sort of failures here. But almost everyone who has every written code, has failed or written buggy code at some point in time. In fact I'm a tad little surprised that I'm having to sell the virtues of incremental failure in a forum that idolizes "Move fast and break things"
- mieseratte 8y ago
  > We are not talking about those sort of failures here. The thread is about working with Indian contractors who frequently lie, pretending they know what is going on. We are very much talking about this kind of problem. > In fact I'm a tad little surprised that I'm having to sell the virtues of incremental failure in a forum that idolizes "Move fast and break things" What I'm talking about is orthogonal to this. You can move fast and break things, but be straight forward to your manager about the risk involved.
mkovji 8y ago
Some people assume it is a yes when some one says no, but i can figure it out. Whose to blame here?
- mieseratte 8y ago
  > Some people assume it is a yes when some one says no, but i can figure it out. Whose to blame here? The point is that pretending to know does not open up the conversation of risk and reward, whereas "No, but I can figure it out" can and typically will. If, at that point, the manager drops the ball by not making sure the risk / reward profile is correct then it is no longer on the engineer.

carlmr 8y ago

>I'll take a "No, but I can figure it out" any day of the week, but lying is a cardinal sin in any relationship. ...in western business culture.

v_lisivka 8y ago
... in Christianity.
- carlmr 8y ago
  How so? Southern Europe is very relaxed in this sense culturally, and it's the most religiously Christian part of Europe at the same time. While atheist northern and central Europe (Germany, Netherlands, Scandinavia, Switzerland) place a lot of emphasis on reliability. Sure you could argue that these nations are culturally Christian, but Christian culture still doesn't imply an emphasis on reliability. At most I might agree with this being a case of the protestant work ethic, which seems to have a high correlation here (northern and central Europe as well as America is very much protestant, southern Europe is more catholic and orthodox). However first of all most historians agree it's false, and second you get places like Germany, where the economic powerhouse is the catholic south (Baden-Württemberg has Porsche, Daimler (Mercedes), Audi and Bosch, Bayern (Bavaria) has BMW, the protestant North and East are more poor).
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Lying is specifically spoken against in the New Testament [paraphrasing: "let your yes be yes"; and "be beyond reproach"]. AIUI lying is allowed in Hinduism [the means justify the end] and in Islam [if it furthers Islam, it can't be wrong]. However, just because it's lauded in Christian writings and by Christians doesn't mean that Christians are any better in this respect than others, "we are all sinners and fall short of God's glory" afterall. I imagine Buddhism to have a similar focus on truth?
PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
...in any culture where you want trust and reliability. If someone doesn't want to be reliable, that's their choice, but don't expect me to be willing to engage in business with them.
- BrandonM 8y ago
  I only realized when I started traveling internationally how much we (perhaps over-) value reliability in the US. We really pay a lot in terms of work hours and stress to gain what is sometimes marginally more predictability and reliability. In Mexico, Belize, southeast Asia, and southern Europe, I found everything to be much less reliable than I was used to. Everyone spent a lot time more waiting around. But I felt happier and more relaxed, and the people around me seemed to as well. I think it might be more cultural than you seem to think.
  - otakucode 8y ago
    It might be an artifact of the system-centric nature of our culture. We seek to reduce everything to predictable absolute rulesets, to make things regular and reliable and tractable. I'm not sure if this comes primarily from the Industrial era and mass-manufacturing which has a tremendous conformity component, or whether it comes mostly from the more recent advent of computers. We so easily accede to someone who says "its policy" without considering that the person involved clearly outranks whatever policy is being dealt with. Perhaps we've not been burned by strict adherence to policy and expecting the world to be regular and predictable as recently as those other cultures. It might just be a temporary thing, but I don't know. We've got things like "personal space" which were a very American concept for a long time, but which has since spread, almost certainly with many negative consequences, widely. So maybe this desire for people to accommodate systems rather than for systems to accommodate people will spread too. We're screwed if that's the case.
michaelcampbell 8y ago
...which is clearly the context of the discussion.

kamaal 8y ago

We are not talking about those sort of failures here. But almost everyone who has every written code, has failed or written buggy code at some point in time. In fact I'm a tad little surprised that I'm having to sell the virtues of incremental failure in a forum that idolizes "Move fast and break things"

mieseratte 8y ago
> We are not talking about those sort of failures here. The thread is about working with Indian contractors who frequently lie, pretending they know what is going on. We are very much talking about this kind of problem. > In fact I'm a tad little surprised that I'm having to sell the virtues of incremental failure in a forum that idolizes "Move fast and break things" What I'm talking about is orthogonal to this. You can move fast and break things, but be straight forward to your manager about the risk involved.

mkovji 8y ago

Some people assume it is a yes when some one says no, but i can figure it out. Whose to blame here?

mieseratte 8y ago
> Some people assume it is a yes when some one says no, but i can figure it out. Whose to blame here? The point is that pretending to know does not open up the conversation of risk and reward, whereas "No, but I can figure it out" can and typically will. If, at that point, the manager drops the ball by not making sure the risk / reward profile is correct then it is no longer on the engineer.