7 ms·

How many VPN services are run by the government three letter agencies through decoy companies? Seems like a match made in heaven.

by fegu 8y ago

mirimir 8y ago
There's no way to know that, either. One of the first VPN services, Anonymizer, morphed into a CIA operation. And Tor, after all, is still heavily funded by the US government. However, as cynical as I've become, I believe that the US freedom vibe is more than PR. But anyway, there's no way to know. So your best bet is nested VPN chains. Including providers from jurisdictions where cooperation is less likely. Insorg is Russian, for example. Also, AirVPN, IVPN and Riseup have said that they'll shut down before they'll log.
- gant 8y ago
  Problem with Riseup is, that they're invite-only and at the same time becoming the most centralized email service for anonymous left-learning political use. Personally I can recommend Autistici/Inventati. More smaller services/servers seems like a much better way to go.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Yes, Autistici/Inventati are excellent too.
- stef25 8y ago
  Riseup will also shut down before not handing over the details of an extreme right winger that somehow slipped through their vetting process.
- TimTheTinker 8y ago
  > your best bet is nested VPN chains It is possible to set up an anonymous DigitalOcean account funded by a Visa gift card and associated with an anonymous email provider. Perhaps the best privacy-preserving tool would be a pool of anonymous, public accounts to public and private VPN services, and a client app that dynamically builds and connects via nested VPN chains.
  - DoctorOetker 8y ago
    But how do you buy the anonymous gift/prepaid whatever card? Cash bills are marked with unique codes, and the trip from bank->(consumer->seller)*->bank tends to be relatively short, often 1 or 2. Systematic/sustained transfers are easily detected with graph theory & statistics... Especially if most other actors are carrying their cell phone with them all the time!
    - panarky 8y ago
      When you pay cash for a drink from the convenience store do they log the serial numbers of the banknotes they give you as change? Even if they did, how would they associate those serial numbers to your identity? When you buy a prepaid card does the cashier link the serial numbers to the transaction? If other actors have their cell phones with them, how does that allow graph theory to tie the prepaid card to you?
      - DoctorOetker 8y ago
        Alice withdraws bill number 17 from the ATM. Bank knows: Alice-17. Alice buys cell phone charger from cashier/seller Bob with bill 17. Seller Bob deposits his cash (including bill 17) to the bank, and only the bank needs to scan the unique number, and associate with who brought it in: Bank predicts: bill 17: Bank->Alice->Bob->Bank For a lot of people even this simple automatable case is controversial, or supposedly too expensive to be true... average joes and janes do not need to track and note down serial numbers for this to work... ==== Most convenience stores have a unified interface for printing the unlock codes for each type of product, and print the unlock code at time of buying. If you carry a cell phone, then the space-time event of cell phone position at the same location as the convenience store at the same time as printing the code identifies you. If other actors have their cell phones with them, the path of their bills is very much revealed. One is then trying to hide in among a very small set of unexplained connections... Really we should have some kind of open source simulator of a market, and the surveillance state perspective of it, so we can prove in practice what is possible to deduce...
- panarky 8y ago
  > jurisdictions where cooperation is less likely There are still some legal restraints on US agencies and military conducting signals intelligence within the United States. But they are unrestrained outside the US. And we've seen that foreign networks are thoroughly compromised by US agencies. So wouldn't it actually be safer for a US resident to select a provider based in the US?
  - mirimir 8y ago
    > There are still some legal restraints on US agencies and military conducting signals intelligence within the United States. That is likely a fantasy. The NSA is a military organization. And the US is always at war. So there's no expectation that the NSA will respect US law. At best, it will pretend to do so. > So wouldn't it actually be safer for a US resident to select a provider based in the US? It is true that there's no mandatory logging requirement for VPN services in the US. And PIA has prevailed so far on that basis. However, there are also National Security Letters, which might require logging without public notice.[0] 0) https://www.calyxinstitute.org/sites/all/documents/08_28_2015_REDACTED_Decision_and_Order.pdf https://www.calyxinstitute.org/sites/all/documents/08_28_201...
- bretpiatt 8y ago
  Using a VPN service from a non-US friendly jurisdiction doesn't guarantee the CIA isn't operating the service, hasn't compromised the service (via human or technical), or doesn't have taps to monitor the service in/out flows giving them the metadata needed to retrace your connection back through the platform.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    There are no guarantees. That's why you use nested VPN chains plus Tor.
- hliyan 8y ago
  > One of the first VPN services, Anonymizer, morphed into a CIA operation I assume you mean anonymizer.com? If so, can you point me to some reliable source for this info? Would like to know more...
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Abraxas Corporation bought Anonymizer in May 2008.[0] > Abraxas Corporation focuses on services, system and technology solutions, and training programs across the United States National Security community, the United States Government, and the United States military markets.[1] It was founded in 2001 > by a group of former high-ranking agency employees, led by Richard "Hollis" Helms, a longtime overseas officer in the Middle East and onetime head of the CIA's European division, and Richard Calder, who was the agency's deputy director for administration. 0) https://www.socaltech.com/anonymizer_acquired_by_abraxas/s-0015106.html https://www.socaltech.com/anonymizer_acquired_by_abraxas/s-0... 1) https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=12218215 https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.a... 2) http://articles.latimes.com/2006/sep/17/nation/na-abraxas17 http://articles.latimes.com/2006/sep/17/nation/na-abraxas17
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

How many VPN services are run by the government three letter agencies through decoy companies? Seems like a match made in heaven.

by fegu 8y ago

How many VPN services are run by the government three letter agencies through decoy companies? Seems like a match made in heaven.

mirimir 8y ago

There's no way to know that, either. One of the first VPN services, Anonymizer, morphed into a CIA operation. And Tor, after all, is still heavily funded by the US government. However, as cynical as I've become, I believe that the US freedom vibe is more than PR. But anyway, there's no way to know. So your best bet is nested VPN chains. Including providers from jurisdictions where cooperation is less likely. Insorg is Russian, for example. Also, AirVPN, IVPN and Riseup have said that they'll shut down before they'll log.

gant 8y ago
Problem with Riseup is, that they're invite-only and at the same time becoming the most centralized email service for anonymous left-learning political use. Personally I can recommend Autistici/Inventati. More smaller services/servers seems like a much better way to go.
- mirimir 8y ago
  Yes, Autistici/Inventati are excellent too.
stef25 8y ago
Riseup will also shut down before not handing over the details of an extreme right winger that somehow slipped through their vetting process.
TimTheTinker 8y ago
> your best bet is nested VPN chains It is possible to set up an anonymous DigitalOcean account funded by a Visa gift card and associated with an anonymous email provider. Perhaps the best privacy-preserving tool would be a pool of anonymous, public accounts to public and private VPN services, and a client app that dynamically builds and connects via nested VPN chains.
- DoctorOetker 8y ago
  But how do you buy the anonymous gift/prepaid whatever card? Cash bills are marked with unique codes, and the trip from bank->(consumer->seller)*->bank tends to be relatively short, often 1 or 2. Systematic/sustained transfers are easily detected with graph theory & statistics... Especially if most other actors are carrying their cell phone with them all the time!
  - panarky 8y ago
    When you pay cash for a drink from the convenience store do they log the serial numbers of the banknotes they give you as change? Even if they did, how would they associate those serial numbers to your identity? When you buy a prepaid card does the cashier link the serial numbers to the transaction? If other actors have their cell phones with them, how does that allow graph theory to tie the prepaid card to you?
    - DoctorOetker 8y ago
      Alice withdraws bill number 17 from the ATM. Bank knows: Alice-17. Alice buys cell phone charger from cashier/seller Bob with bill 17. Seller Bob deposits his cash (including bill 17) to the bank, and only the bank needs to scan the unique number, and associate with who brought it in: Bank predicts: bill 17: Bank->Alice->Bob->Bank For a lot of people even this simple automatable case is controversial, or supposedly too expensive to be true... average joes and janes do not need to track and note down serial numbers for this to work... ==== Most convenience stores have a unified interface for printing the unlock codes for each type of product, and print the unlock code at time of buying. If you carry a cell phone, then the space-time event of cell phone position at the same location as the convenience store at the same time as printing the code identifies you. If other actors have their cell phones with them, the path of their bills is very much revealed. One is then trying to hide in among a very small set of unexplained connections... Really we should have some kind of open source simulator of a market, and the surveillance state perspective of it, so we can prove in practice what is possible to deduce...
panarky 8y ago
> jurisdictions where cooperation is less likely There are still some legal restraints on US agencies and military conducting signals intelligence within the United States. But they are unrestrained outside the US. And we've seen that foreign networks are thoroughly compromised by US agencies. So wouldn't it actually be safer for a US resident to select a provider based in the US?
- mirimir 8y ago
  > There are still some legal restraints on US agencies and military conducting signals intelligence within the United States. That is likely a fantasy. The NSA is a military organization. And the US is always at war. So there's no expectation that the NSA will respect US law. At best, it will pretend to do so. > So wouldn't it actually be safer for a US resident to select a provider based in the US? It is true that there's no mandatory logging requirement for VPN services in the US. And PIA has prevailed so far on that basis. However, there are also National Security Letters, which might require logging without public notice.[0] 0) https://www.calyxinstitute.org/sites/all/documents/08_28_2015_REDACTED_Decision_and_Order.pdf https://www.calyxinstitute.org/sites/all/documents/08_28_201...
bretpiatt 8y ago
Using a VPN service from a non-US friendly jurisdiction doesn't guarantee the CIA isn't operating the service, hasn't compromised the service (via human or technical), or doesn't have taps to monitor the service in/out flows giving them the metadata needed to retrace your connection back through the platform.
- mirimir 8y ago
  There are no guarantees. That's why you use nested VPN chains plus Tor.
hliyan 8y ago
> One of the first VPN services, Anonymizer, morphed into a CIA operation I assume you mean anonymizer.com? If so, can you point me to some reliable source for this info? Would like to know more...
- mirimir 8y ago
  Abraxas Corporation bought Anonymizer in May 2008.[0] > Abraxas Corporation focuses on services, system and technology solutions, and training programs across the United States National Security community, the United States Government, and the United States military markets.[1] It was founded in 2001 > by a group of former high-ranking agency employees, led by Richard "Hollis" Helms, a longtime overseas officer in the Middle East and onetime head of the CIA's European division, and Richard Calder, who was the agency's deputy director for administration. 0) https://www.socaltech.com/anonymizer_acquired_by_abraxas/s-0015106.html https://www.socaltech.com/anonymizer_acquired_by_abraxas/s-0... 1) https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapId=12218215 https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.a... 2) http://articles.latimes.com/2006/sep/17/nation/na-abraxas17 http://articles.latimes.com/2006/sep/17/nation/na-abraxas17

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]