7 ms·

If the majority of your co-workers join the union, at what point do you feel that you would be scabbing by not joining the union that is fighting for better sta

by stnmtn 8y ago

If the majority of your co-workers join the union, at what point do you feel that you would be scabbing by not joining the union that is fighting for better standards for you?

idiot900 8y ago
At what point does the union feel bad for mandating that I join it, even if I don't want to?
prepend 8y ago
I would evaluate the union and choose to stay and join, stay and not join, or leave. There are lots of factors so it’s hard to say. I think I wouldn’t feel too bad if I was in a position and co-workers joined a union, but I didn’t. But I would feel kind of scabish if I joined a majority union org and didn’t join the union. Kind of like if you live in a house and your neighbors form an HOA and you choose not to join. I wouldn’t feel bad at all, as I bought the house with the expectation of no HOA.
colejohnson66 8y ago
What if your coworkers join the union simply because they have to? At my last job, everyone seemed to resent the union.
GauntletWizard 8y ago
I feel like I would be scabbing if I ever joined a union. The minimal Workers rights are something that society should collectively bargain for; anything beyond that is selling out the rest of humanity for the in-group. You should collaborate with your coworkers, sure, and make sure accurate (if aggregated) salary information is available, but getting a union to represent you basically screws you - the union has leverage on you more than it gives you on your employer. A union is a corporation that you've given a monopoly on your time - Do you expect that to work out well in even a slightly employer-favoring market?
- bobwaycott 8y ago
  The labor market always favors employers. Ideally, one would love for market conditions to also be favorable to wage-earners, but the market is never not favoring employers because it is laborers who must sell their labor time or starve/die. There is no labor market in which laborers are even mostly favored, or happily surviving and living without selling their labor time. Unions exist as a means to ensure the labor market is not entirely employer-favoring because laborers must sell their labor time or starve—which places them at an automatic disadvantage and maintains employer power in the market. Employers want to pay as little as possible for labor, while maintaining their power over laborers—which is why they’re either openly hostile to unions or (if they’re smarter like, say, tech companies) act in their own best interest by treating employees in ways they believe will prevent unions from being seen as necessary.
bobwaycott 8y ago
Roughly at the moment you elect to—or believe you ought to—enjoy the better standards negotiated by the union members.
chrisseaton 8y ago
> at what point do you feel that you would be scabbing by not joining the union that is fighting for better standards for you? But what if I don't like the union's goals or the way it tries to achieve those goals? Not joining them isn't 'scabbing' it's standing up for my own principles. People talk about unions as if they're some kind of benign force for unquestioned good. In your mind they're simply 'fighting for better standards' without any qualification of what they think those better standards are, how they're fighting to get them, what their end-state is, what other political campaigns unrelated to the job they support, and so on. The the UK most unions aggressively support one of our main political parties. If you don't want to support that political party then don't join any union because your money will be going to them! It's not 'scabbing' to stand up to not join a union.
- MangezBien 8y ago
  > It's not 'scabbing' to stand up to not join a union. Literally the definition of a scab. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scab https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scab definition 3b.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    I don't think it's the literal definition that's being debated. The question was about 'do you think you're doing the wrong thing', because saying someone is a scab is a moral judgement, not just a factual one.
- vidarh 8y ago
  Most unions support Labour because like in most of Europe the Labour party was literally founded by and for the labour movement and the unions. Hence the unions are also represented in the governing organs of Labour as well, as is the case in most Labour parties in Europe. Of course there certainly are people in unions who do not support Labour, but the historical connection is there because the Labour parties were largely formed as an extension of the work started in and around the unions.
  - 8y ago

by stnmtn 8y ago

If the majority of your co-workers join the union, at what point do you feel that you would be scabbing by not joining the union that is fighting for better standards for you?

idiot900 8y ago

At what point does the union feel bad for mandating that I join it, even if I don't want to?

prepend 8y ago

I would evaluate the union and choose to stay and join, stay and not join, or leave. There are lots of factors so it’s hard to say. I think I wouldn’t feel too bad if I was in a position and co-workers joined a union, but I didn’t. But I would feel kind of scabish if I joined a majority union org and didn’t join the union. Kind of like if you live in a house and your neighbors form an HOA and you choose not to join. I wouldn’t feel bad at all, as I bought the house with the expectation of no HOA.

colejohnson66 8y ago

What if your coworkers join the union simply because they have to? At my last job, everyone seemed to resent the union.

GauntletWizard 8y ago

I feel like I would be scabbing if I ever joined a union. The minimal Workers rights are something that society should collectively bargain for; anything beyond that is selling out the rest of humanity for the in-group. You should collaborate with your coworkers, sure, and make sure accurate (if aggregated) salary information is available, but getting a union to represent you basically screws you - the union has leverage on you more than it gives you on your employer. A union is a corporation that you've given a monopoly on your time - Do you expect that to work out well in even a slightly employer-favoring market?

bobwaycott 8y ago
The labor market always favors employers. Ideally, one would love for market conditions to also be favorable to wage-earners, but the market is never not favoring employers because it is laborers who must sell their labor time or starve/die. There is no labor market in which laborers are even mostly favored, or happily surviving and living without selling their labor time. Unions exist as a means to ensure the labor market is not entirely employer-favoring because laborers must sell their labor time or starve—which places them at an automatic disadvantage and maintains employer power in the market. Employers want to pay as little as possible for labor, while maintaining their power over laborers—which is why they’re either openly hostile to unions or (if they’re smarter like, say, tech companies) act in their own best interest by treating employees in ways they believe will prevent unions from being seen as necessary.

bobwaycott 8y ago

Roughly at the moment you elect to—or believe you ought to—enjoy the better standards negotiated by the union members.

chrisseaton 8y ago

> at what point do you feel that you would be scabbing by not joining the union that is fighting for better standards for you? But what if I don't like the union's goals or the way it tries to achieve those goals? Not joining them isn't 'scabbing' it's standing up for my own principles. People talk about unions as if they're some kind of benign force for unquestioned good. In your mind they're simply 'fighting for better standards' without any qualification of what they think those better standards are, how they're fighting to get them, what their end-state is, what other political campaigns unrelated to the job they support, and so on. The the UK most unions aggressively support one of our main political parties. If you don't want to support that political party then don't join any union because your money will be going to them! It's not 'scabbing' to stand up to not join a union.

MangezBien 8y ago
> It's not 'scabbing' to stand up to not join a union. Literally the definition of a scab. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scab https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scab definition 3b.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  I don't think it's the literal definition that's being debated. The question was about 'do you think you're doing the wrong thing', because saying someone is a scab is a moral judgement, not just a factual one.
vidarh 8y ago
Most unions support Labour because like in most of Europe the Labour party was literally founded by and for the labour movement and the unions. Hence the unions are also represented in the governing organs of Labour as well, as is the case in most Labour parties in Europe. Of course there certainly are people in unions who do not support Labour, but the historical connection is there because the Labour parties were largely formed as an extension of the work started in and around the unions.
- 8y ago