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Stanford to step-up teaching of ethics in technology

11 points by raleighm 8y ago

nibsfour 8y ago
Two big ethical problems that can be hard to prevent and address if they happen in business in my experience are: - Unethical person is critical to survival of company. Do you fire them or not? (and it's clear they won't change). - Big company doing gray area things (say, anti-competitive policies or attitudes) where most or all individuals are acting ethically. Are there any viable options other than full on whistle-blow or silence? (that actually work?).
- bigger_cheese 8y ago
  For 2) In Australia where I am from there are a number of Industry watchdogs such as ACCC (Competition and Consumer Commission), ASIC (Securities and Investment), ABCC (Building and Construction). The ACCC for example investigates Anti-competitive behavior and has the ability to levy fines etc. This is somewhat topical at the moment in the wake of ongoing banking Royal Commission which has turned up huge ethical breaches in the banking and finance sector (Interest rate rigging, fraudulent lending, Cartel behavior etc). There have been some editorials recently about perceived toothlessness of ASIC failing to go after the perpetrators with full weight of penalties available (for instance editorial here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-04/crime-as-misdemeanours-tale-of-two-law-enforcement-agencies/9830742 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-04/crime-as-misdemeanours... ) I think US equivalent would be something like SEC but I'm not sure if they have a consumer competition focused watchdog like ACCC that goes after anti-competitive behavior.
cirgue 8y ago
Ethics are cool, but I think misses the point. A huge part of acting ethically is understanding on a fundamental level why that's important. For that, you have to have some decent history education and some framework for thinking about how actors in a large complex system respond to incentives. Just saying 'this is ethical and this isn't ethical' shortchanges students of the really valuable part of understanding ethics in the context of their work and personal lives.
- thedailymail 8y ago
  Any ethics professor who teaches 'this is ethical and this isn't ethical' is doing it wrong.
  - krageon 8y ago
    I have had the dubious pleasure of getting ethics classes in multiple schools. I don't think I've ever had one where that wasn't basically how the class went. I'm sure that is doing it wrong, but that doesn't mean that it's not the norm.
aafdginionio 8y ago
I haven't read the article since it would cost me $36. This is certainly a step in the right direction, but I doubt it will accomplish much. The reason the tech industry is so evil has little to do with how thorny the issues are. There are complicated ethical problems in tech, but a handful of platitudes would be enough to solve the biggest issues: don't lie, don't spy on people, and don't break the law. I can't think of a company I hate that wouldn't be much improved if it just followed those childishly simple principles. But following those rules requires sacrificing wealth and power. It requires putting yourself out of business if necessary. Good luck convincing people to do that! You can teach people about morality all you want, but no one has figured out how to convince them to put it into practice. Take Mark Zuckerberg's infamous "dumb fucks" comment. That doesn't show someone wresting with complex ethical problems. He knew that he shouldn't have had that data and admitted that he wasn't trustworthy. Even if you think user privacy is a thorny issue, Mark Zuckerberg thought it was pretty clear he was in the wrong. But rather than actually following through on his beliefs, he showed total contempt for morality and went after the money. That sort of broken person couldn't be fixed with a few classes. The sort of people who are most dangerous are the ones who will get an A in these classes, understand everything perfectly, and then go start Facebook or Enron or Oracle.

11 points by raleighm 8y ago

Two big ethical problems that can be hard to prevent and address if they happen in business in my experience are: - Unethical person is critical to survival of company. Do you fire them or not? (and it's clear they won't change). - Big company doing gray area things (say, anti-competitive policies or attitudes) where most or all individuals are acting ethically. Are there any viable options other than full on whistle-blow or silence? (that actually work?).

bigger_cheese 8y ago
For 2) In Australia where I am from there are a number of Industry watchdogs such as ACCC (Competition and Consumer Commission), ASIC (Securities and Investment), ABCC (Building and Construction). The ACCC for example investigates Anti-competitive behavior and has the ability to levy fines etc. This is somewhat topical at the moment in the wake of ongoing banking Royal Commission which has turned up huge ethical breaches in the banking and finance sector (Interest rate rigging, fraudulent lending, Cartel behavior etc). There have been some editorials recently about perceived toothlessness of ASIC failing to go after the perpetrators with full weight of penalties available (for instance editorial here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-04/crime-as-misdemeanours-tale-of-two-law-enforcement-agencies/9830742 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-04/crime-as-misdemeanours... ) I think US equivalent would be something like SEC but I'm not sure if they have a consumer competition focused watchdog like ACCC that goes after anti-competitive behavior.

cirgue 8y ago

Ethics are cool, but I think misses the point. A huge part of acting ethically is understanding on a fundamental level why that's important. For that, you have to have some decent history education and some framework for thinking about how actors in a large complex system respond to incentives. Just saying 'this is ethical and this isn't ethical' shortchanges students of the really valuable part of understanding ethics in the context of their work and personal lives.

thedailymail 8y ago
Any ethics professor who teaches 'this is ethical and this isn't ethical' is doing it wrong.
- krageon 8y ago
  I have had the dubious pleasure of getting ethics classes in multiple schools. I don't think I've ever had one where that wasn't basically how the class went. I'm sure that is doing it wrong, but that doesn't mean that it's not the norm.

aafdginionio 8y ago

I haven't read the article since it would cost me $36. This is certainly a step in the right direction, but I doubt it will accomplish much. The reason the tech industry is so evil has little to do with how thorny the issues are. There are complicated ethical problems in tech, but a handful of platitudes would be enough to solve the biggest issues: don't lie, don't spy on people, and don't break the law. I can't think of a company I hate that wouldn't be much improved if it just followed those childishly simple principles. But following those rules requires sacrificing wealth and power. It requires putting yourself out of business if necessary. Good luck convincing people to do that! You can teach people about morality all you want, but no one has figured out how to convince them to put it into practice. Take Mark Zuckerberg's infamous "dumb fucks" comment. That doesn't show someone wresting with complex ethical problems. He knew that he shouldn't have had that data and admitted that he wasn't trustworthy. Even if you think user privacy is a thorny issue, Mark Zuckerberg thought it was pretty clear he was in the wrong. But rather than actually following through on his beliefs, he showed total contempt for morality and went after the money. That sort of broken person couldn't be fixed with a few classes. The sort of people who are most dangerous are the ones who will get an A in these classes, understand everything perfectly, and then go start Facebook or Enron or Oracle.