12 ms·

Aside from Wunderlist, who was acquired and running on AWS, and had to switch to Azure and rewrite a bunch of their code to become ToDo.

by IMcD23 8y ago

zeusk 8y ago
The scale of products you're talking about are vastly different. Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft".
- zxcvhjkl 8y ago
  > Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft" Why is that? Why should people forget how evil MS was and still is?
  - zeusk 8y ago
    > Why is that? Why should people forget how evil MS was and still is? I'm not asking for that, but making wild baseless predictions of how the service will go to shitter or how suddenly all private code will be ripped off and "I'm going to gitlab now, because Microsoft sucks!" is not part of a healthy discussion. I do have some privacy concerns but they're no less than when Github was not owned by an enterprise software company; If anything I'd be more concerned about privacy if it were Google or Facebook making this acquisition.
    - feanaro 8y ago
      > I'm not asking for that, but making wild baseless predictions of how the service will go to shitter or how suddenly all private code will be ripped off and "I'm going to gitlab now, because Microsoft sucks!" is not part of a healthy discussion. But they're not baseless predictions, they're based on past information and it tells us it would be prudent to minimize reliance of Github sooner rather than later.
    - zxcvhjkl 8y ago
      People base their expectations on past performance. And for MS it hasn’t been stellar. But there is no need for speculation; we will wait and see. The problem is deeper than that though. Unless you were developing an Editor or a Git hosting service, you were not in direct competition with GitHub. Suddenly a lot of startups will find their private code hosted by a direct competitor. I wouldn’t feel comfortable if I was them.
      - zeusk 8y ago
        The same people also host their deployment with some of these corporations, who doesn't use either of AWS, GCP or Azure? Do you also have the same concern that a direct competitor possibly has access to your deployed code, API keys and is also in direct control of your production environment? Not that because it happens, it is nice; but at-least at this point the source code access concern is more of a conspiracy theory if anything.
        jtbayly 8y ago
        Yes, major corporations have moved off of AWS for precisely this reason. (edit to clarify: They moved out of concern about a competitor hosting & having too much knowledge about their business.)
        eli 8y ago
        I'm not personally concerned but some big companies definitely are https://www.retaildive.com/news/report-target-opts-out-of-amazon-cloud-services/503885/ https://www.retaildive.com/news/report-target-opts-out-of-am...
      - kickingvegas 8y ago
        Exactly. GitHub Enterprise under MS rule would be an epic conflict of interest for many customers who currently use it because MS could/would compete with them. While it's not a complete 1-1 mapping, I keep thinking of Stac Electronics disk compression lawsuit against MS when it comes to handling source code: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stac_Electronics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stac_Electronics
    - balls187 8y ago
      Do you have examples of Microsoft acquiring technology that was beloved and embraced by it's community and making it better? MGS did right by Bungie/Halo circa XBox; though Halo hadn't yet been released, and it's initial fanbase were all Marathon fans.
      - cm2187 8y ago
        Xamarin, Minecraft. They are as capable of the best as of the worst.
        krageon 8y ago
        Minecraft was going in the toilet slowly far before Microsoft acquired them, but the changes they made have not been for the better in my opinion. Xamarin was plainly bad before acquisition, and as far as I've been able to discern this hasn't changed.
        evilmushroom 8y ago
        it's still bad.
    - __jack_rabbit__ 8y ago
      I'm not really interested in being part of a "healthy discussion" with Microsoft. There are enough people telling Microsoft about all the things it is doing to make people dislike it. It knows what these things are. If it wants to stop doing them, then I'm happy to use some of its products. Until then, I'm going to gitlab now, because Microsoft sucks!
    - oldcynic 8y ago
      OK I'll avoid iterating the ludicrously long list of Microsoft acquisitions that immediately did go to shit. Often intentionally, like AutoRoute straight after purchase from Nextbase. All I need do to have concern about this acquisition is look to last year. https://archive.codeplex.com/ https://archive.codeplex.com/ How long before they get bored of github then? Codeplex wasn't as good or popular as github, but did seem to have many valid reasons for existence if you were Windows focused. So they killed it.
      - sime2009 8y ago
        Codeplex died because GitHub won. There was little point in keeping Codeplex around especially after MS decided to move their open source stuff to where the developers were, i.e. GitHub.
    - saintPirelli 8y ago
      > baseless If the company that ships OS with preinstalled, hidden keyloggers (using that as a pars pro toto) acquires the platform I host my code on, that's not a basis on which to be concerned?
      - kbenson 8y ago
        Are you referring to the issue where the crappily written driver had a keylogger to detect keyboard volume keys, etc, or something else? If it's the first, that's not exactly Microsoft's fault, in the same way it's not exactly Mocrosoft's fault that if you buy a Dell it might come with McAfee preinstalled. Although, it could be argued that if the driver was verified, perhaps they should extend their verified driver program to cover that instead of just crash protection. Then again, since the arguments here are centered around not trusting Microsoft with your source code, I can see why they may not require that...
        saintPirelli 8y ago
        No, I am talking about a literal keylogger actively installed on the OS. To their credit, after it surfaced they now provide a privacy option to "turn it off", but they still pretty much admit to spy on you every chance they get. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-speech-inking-typing-and-privacy-faq https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-speech-inking...
    - matheusmoreira 8y ago
      After what they did to Skype, such predictions are hardly baseless.
  - macspoofing 8y ago
    Because Microsoft was never that evil and they aren't evil today. It took me seeing the stuff Apple got away with the iPhone to see what a non-issue Microsoft 90s desktop hegemony was. The fear was overblown.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - prewett 8y ago
      They were convicted of anti-competitive behavior, and that was after at least a decade of unprovable rumors and industry open-secret of anti-competitive behavior. How much more clear-cut of a case do you need?
      - zeusk 8y ago
        More than 20 years ago; The entire leadership has changed since. Also, not getting convicted isn’t a very high bar.
        skreutzer 8y ago
        But the users from 20 years ago aren't dead yet. It's difficult to get a widespread bad reputation in business, but once it's obtained, it needs an incredible amount of repairing and good-doing to get rid of it again, and it's not that Microsoft is doing any of it with their recent pseudo-openness approach, they just realized that OS lock-in doesn't work any more and that they have to massively invest in cloud data/services lock-in and the race for AI, by giving their OS/VS away gratis, to prevent a world of Java and web developers and Apple after loosing the entire mobile sector. Looks like people will fall for that lock-in/dependency again because they don't understand digital, and Microsoft can buy their way out of their previously miserable situation. Wonder who paid for that, probably all the companies with Microsoft licenses because of lock-in and market dominance.
      - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        Evil is not a legal term though. All large global corporations are constantly involved in legal battles, because that's how conflicts are resolved in our society. Sometimes they win. Sometimes they lose and are convicted. Quite often they settle before they are convicted. That's not the difference between good and evil. Microsoft took the view that they could bundle IE with Windows and that they could license Windows to PC manufacturers on an exclusive basis. A US court decided that given their market share they were not allowed to do that. Google is in a similar bundling conflict now with the European Union. So far Google has lost and they may or may not ultimately lose before the European Court of Justice. Or they may settle before it comes to that. In 2015 Apple, Google, Intel and Adobe were caught trying to keep wages down by agreeing not to poach each others' employees. They paid $415 million to settle that case. Please look up [Company Name] litigation on Wikipedia and you will find countless cases of large companies being convicted for something or settling this or that case. Is any of this evil? That is a question everyone has to answer for themselves in each particular case, because "evil" is a moral term. The simple fact of losing a legal battle does not qualify as evil according to my moral compass.
  - spookthesunset 8y ago
    > Why is that? Because this isn't slashdot.
  - coldseattle 8y ago
    Don't forget how evil Github is!
    - yani 8y ago
      I agree... GH is evil
  - intended 8y ago
    The call is not to forget - I didn’t see that from the comment. However knee jerk responses are today out of line with MSFTs behavior and actual ability. Simply they are anti-objective and inefficient in discussing current reality.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    Evil are the companies that pollute rivers, sponsor wars, have work conditions on borderline slavery, agree to work with dictatorship governments....
    - skreutzer 8y ago
      No. Software developers, doctors, post delivery personell, whatever, is supposed to do the best in their own field, and just because there are other sectors which are considerably worse doesn't mean that we should let ours ever fall to that level too. It's not difficult to see a dystopiant future in which software might help create the most horrible of all societies, and its reach could also be global.
- cutler 8y ago
  Read-up on MS's ongoing Linux patent racket and you might change your tune.
  - zeusk 8y ago
    I don't see how it relates to Github but sure, link me to someplace I can read up on it because a Google search of "Microsoft Linux patent racket" only led me to an obvious troll bait blog.
    - bitmapbrother 8y ago
      Microsoft milks Casio for using Linux: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/20/signs_deal_with_casio_for_undisclosed_sum/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/20/signs_deal_with_cas... And there are many more companies they've sued for using Linux.
    - cutler 8y ago
      https://meshedinsights.com/2016/11/22/microsoft-linux-patents-tweets/ https://meshedinsights.com/2016/11/22/microsoft-linux-patent... That was only 18 months ago at which time MS had harvested a cool $85 million form its Linux patent racket. God knows what the Linux Foundation were smoking when they accepted Microsoft's membership. Suse Linux is another victim of Microsoft's extortion. Worst is the patents remain unspecified, as far as I'm aware.
      - zeusk 8y ago
        I don't want to sound dismissive but you've linked to a blog post from 2016, which in its entirety only mentions how much they make from the entire patent portfolio and a wild guess on how much they could be making from "Linux patent racket" and no other details on who they're pursuing or what the demands are/were.
      - AsyncAwait 8y ago
        > God knows what the Linux Foundation were smoking when they accepted Microsoft's membership The Linux Foundation doesn't care about Linux. It's mostly a way for the CEO to get paid big sums, he uses a Mac on stage when talking about Linux. They sponsor a bunch of good projects and pay Linus and Greg, but they're not ideologically commuted to Linux, as long as MS pays the fees, in they go.
- iceman2654 8y ago
  > Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft" OK, I respect the call for keeping an open mind. Always a good approach. But let's not forget all of the moves toward a friendlier Microsoft/Linux world looks suspiciously like "Embrace" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... I for one am willing to keep an open mind, but will be following these types of developments closely. I hope to be proven wrong.
  - tomnipotent 8y ago
    Then EVERY single other business of its size has a strategy that looks like "Embrace". The only difference is that Microsoft had a memo leak.
    - wasx 8y ago
      ... which is exactly the problem. The issue is the tactic, not the company employing it. It’s just this company has a serious habit of employing those tactics, hence the distrust.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - Lio 8y ago
        I'd like anyone in any business contemplating an Embrace, Extinguish strategy to know that it ends in people not trusting your company and being unwilling to work with your services. I would like to know how much it is costing Microsoft to fix that damaged reputation so that other executives will know if they do this it will end up costing at least X amount.
        chme 8y ago
        Hmm... I would think that it will cost Microsoft a rethinking of their business strategy. If their 'Embrace' looks like 'Yes we are compatible with...' and their 'Extend' like 'If you use our layer you can also do...' then people stay sceptical. Instead their 'Embrace' should be 'How can we help you with your open source product?' and their 'Extend': 'Here are patches that fixes problems, improves performance and implement community wanted features.' It seems companies like this always try to hold the door to 'Extinguish' open.
- Razengan 8y ago
  What about the people who hate Apple just because `Apple`? (or any other form of "brand envy" against other companies, for that matter.)
  - zeusk 8y ago
    > What about the people who hate Apple just because `Apple`? Yeah, sure. I'm totally on that but this isn't a thread about Apple, is it?
  - geon 8y ago
    Blatant what-about-ism.
- gaius 8y ago
  The funny thing is that Google is 20x as evil, and the fanboys still love them
  - Mononokay 8y ago
    Oh please, very few people actually like Google.
- some_account 8y ago
  You are native to think they want to support open source. This is an American, capitalistic company who have crushed many opponents exactly the way they are doing now. Embrace, extend, extinguish. It's their thing. You can Google it even.
- static_noise 8y ago
  The name is burnt. They still are a company with business interests. While their interests might align today with the open source community this doesn't have to be so tomorrow and there is no resistance internally to burn these bridges they are building today.
- linkmotif 8y ago
  I wasted many years using Windows, an OS that I gained nothing from using except memorizing UI patterns. This may be great for some, but I really developed as a computer person when I got OS X, which allowed me to use Unix without diving into Linux. The impact was huge. I still think sadly about the wasted years clicking around Windows. Just the other day I was helping my mom with some C# code in VS, stepping through lines in the debugger. When I hit some library code I excpected to step into the library code, like in Java. Instead it force stepped over. Wouldn’t even let me see a decompile, like XCode shows you for code without available source. That’s microsoft for you. You get some binary libraries, docs that may or may not be crap, and Steve Balmer screaming “developers developers developers” while you bang your head trying to figure out some poorly documented library works. Microsoft relies on users’ ignorance, Stockholm syndrome, and the perception that Apple is more expensive. You get so much more from Apple, it’s incomparable. That said this acquisition seems like a great fit and doesn’t trouble me at all. As much as I love it, GitHub is nothing special. Microsoft has little to ruin and a lot to improve. Seems like a solid vanity pickup for MSFT, and a good source of guiding vision for GH.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    I really would love to see how XCode is able to display anything for binary Objective-C libraries, beyond pure Assembly. If you want pure Assembly in binary libraries in C++ and C#, Visual Studio can also display them, one just needs to select the right options.
    - linkmotif 8y ago
      > I really would love to see how XCode is able to display anything for binary Objective-C libraries, beyond pure Assembly. Indeed it only shows disassembly. I was frustrated that VS wouldn't even show me that. Others write that newer VS lets you enable the showing of assembly. Anyway, I am spoiled by Java, where I can step into standard library code (which is in Java), can decompile to produce pretty nice Java source where the source is not available, and IntelliJ, which automatically downloads the source where it is publicly available. It's quite wonderful. But I am guessing you already know this, judging from your profile. To me, not being beholden to documentation is an incredible freedom. The ability to just pop open the source to understand the tool you're working with is indispensable once you've experience that freedom. Microsoft developers don't have this ability, and having had it, it's hard to imagine being without.
- Mononokay 8y ago
  Haloween documents, and literally the twenty years they've been trying to destroy free software. Not to mention . . : https://twitter.com/jamiebuilds/status/1002696910266773505 https://twitter.com/jamiebuilds/status/1002696910266773505 Tl;dr, Microsoft ignored his license, attributed nothing, and copied his program directory-by-directory. Fuck Microsoft. Trust them with email, not your software.
- sjellis 8y ago
  > Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft". To be fair, Microsoft need to stop doing stuff that makes people dislike them. Microsoft aggressively court developers who don't use their platforms, but if you are a Microsoft partner or worse, a mere Windows user, you don't always feel so loved.
  - schwarrrtz 8y ago
    Case in point: ads in Windows 10.
    - evfanknitram 8y ago
      Are these only available in Home edition? I'm in pro edition and have ever seen any ads. I also use ClassicShell start menu so maybe that's why I never see it...
      - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
        Ads are definitely present in Pro. Perhaps you're just not calling them ads. In the start menu you get "recommended apps", explorer pops up "recommendations" for OneDrive, and when you switch your default browser to Chrome it nags you that you should really give Edge a chance, to name a few things people are referring to when they talk about Windows 10 having ads. Fortunately, there's free third party software that fix a lot of Microsoft's bullshit: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10.
        scaryspooky 8y ago
        Or you delete Cortana and completely break all of that bullshit. Though it has made it so a Windows 10 update will no longer apply, which is a frustrating side effect but one I am willing to live with.
      - frnkr 8y ago
        They're present even in Enterprise versions. The worst part? Every time you upgrade you get all the garbage back: games, ads, etc. I was stupid when testing W10 and didn't backup W7 so I was left with W10. My solution? Bought MBP's for my whole team, and buying more as we grow. I've been MS since ms-dos and walked thru all the versions since 95 (excluding Vista), but now I'm happy Apple guy. All it took was Win 10. :/ I'm kinda missing Win UI but OMG how much I hated W10...I felt so betreyed :(
- cm2187 8y ago
  I actually was never anti-Microsoft but I must say that the aggressive, user-hostile moves they made with Windows 10 seriously irked me.
- sametmax 8y ago
  Well, you may love to forget, but a lot of us don't. We didn't forget that our community was called a cancer (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_cancer/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_...) We didn't forget that microsoft is one of the biggest pattent troll in the world (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220040230959%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20040230959&RS=DN/20040230959 http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=... or http://www.asymco.com/2011/05/27/microsoft-has-received-five-times-more-income-from-android-than-from-windows-phone/ http://www.asymco.com/2011/05/27/microsoft-has-received-five...). We didn't forget than they litterally corrupted officials to capture markets (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrawrage/2013/03/20/microsoft-whistleblower-allegations-highlight-global-corruption-risks/#265aede42599 https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrawrage/2013/03/20/micro... and https://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/pots-de-vin-microsoft,1-45570.html https://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/pots-de-vin-microsoft,1...) We didn't forget monopolistic practices (https://www.networkworld.com/article/2221165/microsoft-subnet/a-blast-from-the-past---microsoft-accused-of-monopolistic-practices.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2221165/microsoft-subne... or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor...) We didn't forget the lies (http://practical-tech.com/operating-system/2096/ http://practical-tech.com/operating-system/2096/) and sabotage (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009051922175320 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009051922175320). We didn't forget they aided dictators (https://www.salon.com/2011/09/06/wikileaks_microsoft_tunisia https://www.salon.com/2011/09/06/wikileaks_microsoft_tunisia) or destroyed products you bought remotly (http://sebsauvage.net/rhaa/?2010/01/06/13/21/41-microsoft-peine-de-mort-par-flashage http://sebsauvage.net/rhaa/?2010/01/06/13/21/41-microsoft-pe...). We didn't forget they force updated Win10 and all the integrated ads and spywares, after a terrible Win8 while everybody was happy with win 7. We didn't forget that microsoft killed rare, nokia, skype and that currently outlook is becomming less and less usable everyday. So yeah, VSCode, Excel, TypeScript, the Xbox and C# are good products. So what ? Unless you suddently fire everybody from MS, change their raison de vivre, and reboot them, they are still Microsoft. Attitude like yours is why crooked politicians get reelected. Why big companies can mess up with consummers and get away with it. People say that you can't change the world. That you can't do anything about what's wrong. They feel helpless. I'd start with stopping this habit of giving a free pass to all the entities with a disrespectful background just because they got better on some points. Or because they have a better PR. Because they do. Half of the links I had on them were cleaned off. They are green washing them, cm by cm. Until all that remains is that they were the good guys.
- erlich 8y ago
  Microsoft need to stop creating sub-par products. Skype is absolute junk...takes me 15 mins to get a call working each time. Microsoft Teams/Planner is junk too. I understand things are changing, but it still feels like they have weak product managers who don't care about the quality and polish of their products.
- Konryan 8y ago
  People hate Microsoft for "being Microsoft" BECAUSE of what Microsoft is, does and has done. I'm sure you will find most people who voice those opinions have their own reasons, based on history, to be distrustful of Microsoft and the way this acquisition will be handled.
- ksec 8y ago
  They cant just ask for forgiveness after all that they have done. Action speaks louder than words. I don't care about Open Soruces or Paid or Free. Bring me better products! Bring me better services. Proof it to me that they care. They are obviously doing a lot of things right under Nadella. But asking many to not hating them after 4 years of good and 20 to 40 years of bad may be is a little too much to ask for. They will have to do a lot more to wins us back.
- jacksmith21006 8y ago
  Dislike the word "hate". It is more people that have been in the industry for a long time know what Microsoft has been all about for a very long time. But finally we have a new culture in software. Where big tech give away crazy amounts of IP. Google gave away Map/Reduce and K8s and TF and so many papers. FB has given away so much also. We finally had a single and neutral site which everyone uses. So things were just fantastic and then the old guard just can't resist and messes it up. Now the big tech companies will have to move to a new site and a single place is no more. Looks like they will move to GitLab which will just become the new GitHub and ironically way down the road MS will probably have to move their code to GitLab if it becomes the new place. There are many, many developers, most developers?, that do not use any MS developement technology. Now without them wanting it MS has injected themselves and will cause a hassle. Either moving your repo to GitLab or now having to go to multiple places to find things. Or confusion if the repo is on Github or Gitlab. It is not a huge hassle but a hassle that was not necessary. That is the thing. The new leaders in the tech world are all about moving the ENTIRE industry forward. But MS move here has slowed the industry as people have new work to deal with it. BTW, do hope we can put to rest that MS has changed. Clearly they have not. I never really thought it as company cultures rarely change. But here is the nice black and white proof.
- brightball 8y ago
  As soon as SQL Server isn’t an inescapable trap for your data, my impression of Microsoft will improve on the developer side. Right now the idea of doing things that every other major Relational DB can do, like hook directly to ElasticSearch or feed live data into an outside system is crippled. It’s hard to see that as anything other than a business decision that negatively impacts my codebase.
jxi 8y ago
I still use Wunderlist and probably will until they forcefully shut it down. Tried the ToDo app, and I don't get why they basically tried to rewrite Wunderlist. The ToDo app was so buggy and crashed all the time not to mention it's lack of features. Hopefully Microsoft learns from this mistake of trying to do a crappy useless rewrite.
ggg9990 8y ago
It’s very different when it’s a direct competitor, especially one you’re paying $ to every month. CEOs hate funding their competitors.
dspillett 8y ago
There is a large difference in complexity here though, and Wunderlist need extra coding for O365 integration so it wasn't just redevelopment purely for a platform shift. GitHub more complex than todo-list-on-steroids app so a platform change would not make any real sense. MS today may still have some of its old habits but they do seem to have purged a lot of the "not invented here" problem that caused much embarrassment when the first attempts to migrate HotMail over to MS technologies failed. It also has pretty good integration with relevant MS tools (VS & VS.code, etc.). I expect to see them moving the base infrastructure over to Azure, but non-MS technologies are well enough supported on the platform so that won't require any notable changes to the main codebase of the product itself (though perhaps some rework of the deployment processes to make them more optimal for their new target network?). These days they care a lot more about what runs on Azure than what is written using .Net and even what runs on Windows, and are comfortable releasing their own code using other tech (VS.code being based on Electron being the first example that springs to mind). They'd prefer you used an MS stack from top to bottom of course, but they are more than happy for projects to use other components in/on Azure. It'll be interesting to see how they would position it alongside TFS, as there is a lot of overlap between the two products. My guess is they'd keep pushing TFS for people who are completely MS shops and GH for people with more varied stacks.
- dspillett 8y ago
  > VS.code being based on Electron (self reply as it is too late to edit) As pointed out in another location I post: Electron was created at GitHub and they are its primary maintainer which may have had some bearing on the decision, and a wider effect as it could touch many other projects. Though as Electron is open source there is always the fork option if the community doesn't like the direction MS go with it. Looks like their will be two sets of automatic posts on news of any project that used Electron: those bemoaning its use because it is Electron and those bemoaning its use because MS!

Aside from Wunderlist, who was acquired and running on AWS, and had to switch to Azure and rewrite a bunch of their code to become ToDo.

by IMcD23 8y ago

Aside from Wunderlist, who was acquired and running on AWS, and had to switch to Azure and rewrite a bunch of their code to become ToDo.

zeusk 8y ago

The scale of products you're talking about are vastly different. Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft".

zxcvhjkl 8y ago
> Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft" Why is that? Why should people forget how evil MS was and still is?
- zeusk 8y ago
  > Why is that? Why should people forget how evil MS was and still is? I'm not asking for that, but making wild baseless predictions of how the service will go to shitter or how suddenly all private code will be ripped off and "I'm going to gitlab now, because Microsoft sucks!" is not part of a healthy discussion. I do have some privacy concerns but they're no less than when Github was not owned by an enterprise software company; If anything I'd be more concerned about privacy if it were Google or Facebook making this acquisition.
  - feanaro 8y ago
    > I'm not asking for that, but making wild baseless predictions of how the service will go to shitter or how suddenly all private code will be ripped off and "I'm going to gitlab now, because Microsoft sucks!" is not part of a healthy discussion. But they're not baseless predictions, they're based on past information and it tells us it would be prudent to minimize reliance of Github sooner rather than later.
  - zxcvhjkl 8y ago
    People base their expectations on past performance. And for MS it hasn’t been stellar. But there is no need for speculation; we will wait and see. The problem is deeper than that though. Unless you were developing an Editor or a Git hosting service, you were not in direct competition with GitHub. Suddenly a lot of startups will find their private code hosted by a direct competitor. I wouldn’t feel comfortable if I was them.
    - zeusk 8y ago
      The same people also host their deployment with some of these corporations, who doesn't use either of AWS, GCP or Azure? Do you also have the same concern that a direct competitor possibly has access to your deployed code, API keys and is also in direct control of your production environment? Not that because it happens, it is nice; but at-least at this point the source code access concern is more of a conspiracy theory if anything.
      - jtbayly 8y ago
        Yes, major corporations have moved off of AWS for precisely this reason. (edit to clarify: They moved out of concern about a competitor hosting & having too much knowledge about their business.)
      - eli 8y ago
        I'm not personally concerned but some big companies definitely are https://www.retaildive.com/news/report-target-opts-out-of-amazon-cloud-services/503885/ https://www.retaildive.com/news/report-target-opts-out-of-am...
    - kickingvegas 8y ago
      Exactly. GitHub Enterprise under MS rule would be an epic conflict of interest for many customers who currently use it because MS could/would compete with them. While it's not a complete 1-1 mapping, I keep thinking of Stac Electronics disk compression lawsuit against MS when it comes to handling source code: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stac_Electronics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stac_Electronics
  - balls187 8y ago
    Do you have examples of Microsoft acquiring technology that was beloved and embraced by it's community and making it better? MGS did right by Bungie/Halo circa XBox; though Halo hadn't yet been released, and it's initial fanbase were all Marathon fans.
    - cm2187 8y ago
      Xamarin, Minecraft. They are as capable of the best as of the worst.
      - krageon 8y ago
        Minecraft was going in the toilet slowly far before Microsoft acquired them, but the changes they made have not been for the better in my opinion. Xamarin was plainly bad before acquisition, and as far as I've been able to discern this hasn't changed.
        evilmushroom 8y ago
        it's still bad.
  - __jack_rabbit__ 8y ago
    I'm not really interested in being part of a "healthy discussion" with Microsoft. There are enough people telling Microsoft about all the things it is doing to make people dislike it. It knows what these things are. If it wants to stop doing them, then I'm happy to use some of its products. Until then, I'm going to gitlab now, because Microsoft sucks!
  - oldcynic 8y ago
    OK I'll avoid iterating the ludicrously long list of Microsoft acquisitions that immediately did go to shit. Often intentionally, like AutoRoute straight after purchase from Nextbase. All I need do to have concern about this acquisition is look to last year. https://archive.codeplex.com/ https://archive.codeplex.com/ How long before they get bored of github then? Codeplex wasn't as good or popular as github, but did seem to have many valid reasons for existence if you were Windows focused. So they killed it.
    - sime2009 8y ago
      Codeplex died because GitHub won. There was little point in keeping Codeplex around especially after MS decided to move their open source stuff to where the developers were, i.e. GitHub.
  - saintPirelli 8y ago
    > baseless If the company that ships OS with preinstalled, hidden keyloggers (using that as a pars pro toto) acquires the platform I host my code on, that's not a basis on which to be concerned?
    - kbenson 8y ago
      Are you referring to the issue where the crappily written driver had a keylogger to detect keyboard volume keys, etc, or something else? If it's the first, that's not exactly Microsoft's fault, in the same way it's not exactly Mocrosoft's fault that if you buy a Dell it might come with McAfee preinstalled. Although, it could be argued that if the driver was verified, perhaps they should extend their verified driver program to cover that instead of just crash protection. Then again, since the arguments here are centered around not trusting Microsoft with your source code, I can see why they may not require that...
      - saintPirelli 8y ago
        No, I am talking about a literal keylogger actively installed on the OS. To their credit, after it surfaced they now provide a privacy option to "turn it off", but they still pretty much admit to spy on you every chance they get. https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-speech-inking-typing-and-privacy-faq https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10-speech-inking...
  - matheusmoreira 8y ago
    After what they did to Skype, such predictions are hardly baseless.
- macspoofing 8y ago
  Because Microsoft was never that evil and they aren't evil today. It took me seeing the stuff Apple got away with the iPhone to see what a non-issue Microsoft 90s desktop hegemony was. The fear was overblown.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - prewett 8y ago
    They were convicted of anti-competitive behavior, and that was after at least a decade of unprovable rumors and industry open-secret of anti-competitive behavior. How much more clear-cut of a case do you need?
    - zeusk 8y ago
      More than 20 years ago; The entire leadership has changed since. Also, not getting convicted isn’t a very high bar.
      - skreutzer 8y ago
        But the users from 20 years ago aren't dead yet. It's difficult to get a widespread bad reputation in business, but once it's obtained, it needs an incredible amount of repairing and good-doing to get rid of it again, and it's not that Microsoft is doing any of it with their recent pseudo-openness approach, they just realized that OS lock-in doesn't work any more and that they have to massively invest in cloud data/services lock-in and the race for AI, by giving their OS/VS away gratis, to prevent a world of Java and web developers and Apple after loosing the entire mobile sector. Looks like people will fall for that lock-in/dependency again because they don't understand digital, and Microsoft can buy their way out of their previously miserable situation. Wonder who paid for that, probably all the companies with Microsoft licenses because of lock-in and market dominance.
    - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
      Evil is not a legal term though. All large global corporations are constantly involved in legal battles, because that's how conflicts are resolved in our society. Sometimes they win. Sometimes they lose and are convicted. Quite often they settle before they are convicted. That's not the difference between good and evil. Microsoft took the view that they could bundle IE with Windows and that they could license Windows to PC manufacturers on an exclusive basis. A US court decided that given their market share they were not allowed to do that. Google is in a similar bundling conflict now with the European Union. So far Google has lost and they may or may not ultimately lose before the European Court of Justice. Or they may settle before it comes to that. In 2015 Apple, Google, Intel and Adobe were caught trying to keep wages down by agreeing not to poach each others' employees. They paid $415 million to settle that case. Please look up [Company Name] litigation on Wikipedia and you will find countless cases of large companies being convicted for something or settling this or that case. Is any of this evil? That is a question everyone has to answer for themselves in each particular case, because "evil" is a moral term. The simple fact of losing a legal battle does not qualify as evil according to my moral compass.
- spookthesunset 8y ago
  > Why is that? Because this isn't slashdot.
- coldseattle 8y ago
  Don't forget how evil Github is!
  - yani 8y ago
    I agree... GH is evil
- intended 8y ago
  The call is not to forget - I didn’t see that from the comment. However knee jerk responses are today out of line with MSFTs behavior and actual ability. Simply they are anti-objective and inefficient in discussing current reality.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Evil are the companies that pollute rivers, sponsor wars, have work conditions on borderline slavery, agree to work with dictatorship governments....
  - skreutzer 8y ago
    No. Software developers, doctors, post delivery personell, whatever, is supposed to do the best in their own field, and just because there are other sectors which are considerably worse doesn't mean that we should let ours ever fall to that level too. It's not difficult to see a dystopiant future in which software might help create the most horrible of all societies, and its reach could also be global.
cutler 8y ago
Read-up on MS's ongoing Linux patent racket and you might change your tune.
- zeusk 8y ago
  I don't see how it relates to Github but sure, link me to someplace I can read up on it because a Google search of "Microsoft Linux patent racket" only led me to an obvious troll bait blog.
  - bitmapbrother 8y ago
    Microsoft milks Casio for using Linux: https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/20/signs_deal_with_casio_for_undisclosed_sum/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/09/20/signs_deal_with_cas... And there are many more companies they've sued for using Linux.
  - cutler 8y ago
    https://meshedinsights.com/2016/11/22/microsoft-linux-patents-tweets/ https://meshedinsights.com/2016/11/22/microsoft-linux-patent... That was only 18 months ago at which time MS had harvested a cool $85 million form its Linux patent racket. God knows what the Linux Foundation were smoking when they accepted Microsoft's membership. Suse Linux is another victim of Microsoft's extortion. Worst is the patents remain unspecified, as far as I'm aware.
    - zeusk 8y ago
      I don't want to sound dismissive but you've linked to a blog post from 2016, which in its entirety only mentions how much they make from the entire patent portfolio and a wild guess on how much they could be making from "Linux patent racket" and no other details on who they're pursuing or what the demands are/were.
    - AsyncAwait 8y ago
      > God knows what the Linux Foundation were smoking when they accepted Microsoft's membership The Linux Foundation doesn't care about Linux. It's mostly a way for the CEO to get paid big sums, he uses a Mac on stage when talking about Linux. They sponsor a bunch of good projects and pay Linus and Greg, but they're not ideologically commuted to Linux, as long as MS pays the fees, in they go.
iceman2654 8y ago
> Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft" OK, I respect the call for keeping an open mind. Always a good approach. But let's not forget all of the moves toward a friendlier Microsoft/Linux world looks suspiciously like "Embrace" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... I for one am willing to keep an open mind, but will be following these types of developments closely. I hope to be proven wrong.
- tomnipotent 8y ago
  Then EVERY single other business of its size has a strategy that looks like "Embrace". The only difference is that Microsoft had a memo leak.
  - wasx 8y ago
    ... which is exactly the problem. The issue is the tactic, not the company employing it. It’s just this company has a serious habit of employing those tactics, hence the distrust.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - Lio 8y ago
      I'd like anyone in any business contemplating an Embrace, Extinguish strategy to know that it ends in people not trusting your company and being unwilling to work with your services. I would like to know how much it is costing Microsoft to fix that damaged reputation so that other executives will know if they do this it will end up costing at least X amount.
      - chme 8y ago
        Hmm... I would think that it will cost Microsoft a rethinking of their business strategy. If their 'Embrace' looks like 'Yes we are compatible with...' and their 'Extend' like 'If you use our layer you can also do...' then people stay sceptical. Instead their 'Embrace' should be 'How can we help you with your open source product?' and their 'Extend': 'Here are patches that fixes problems, improves performance and implement community wanted features.' It seems companies like this always try to hold the door to 'Extinguish' open.
Razengan 8y ago
What about the people who hate Apple just because `Apple`? (or any other form of "brand envy" against other companies, for that matter.)
- zeusk 8y ago
  > What about the people who hate Apple just because `Apple`? Yeah, sure. I'm totally on that but this isn't a thread about Apple, is it?
- geon 8y ago
  Blatant what-about-ism.
gaius 8y ago
The funny thing is that Google is 20x as evil, and the fanboys still love them
- Mononokay 8y ago
  Oh please, very few people actually like Google.
some_account 8y ago
You are native to think they want to support open source. This is an American, capitalistic company who have crushed many opponents exactly the way they are doing now. Embrace, extend, extinguish. It's their thing. You can Google it even.
static_noise 8y ago
The name is burnt. They still are a company with business interests. While their interests might align today with the open source community this doesn't have to be so tomorrow and there is no resistance internally to burn these bridges they are building today.
linkmotif 8y ago
I wasted many years using Windows, an OS that I gained nothing from using except memorizing UI patterns. This may be great for some, but I really developed as a computer person when I got OS X, which allowed me to use Unix without diving into Linux. The impact was huge. I still think sadly about the wasted years clicking around Windows. Just the other day I was helping my mom with some C# code in VS, stepping through lines in the debugger. When I hit some library code I excpected to step into the library code, like in Java. Instead it force stepped over. Wouldn’t even let me see a decompile, like XCode shows you for code without available source. That’s microsoft for you. You get some binary libraries, docs that may or may not be crap, and Steve Balmer screaming “developers developers developers” while you bang your head trying to figure out some poorly documented library works. Microsoft relies on users’ ignorance, Stockholm syndrome, and the perception that Apple is more expensive. You get so much more from Apple, it’s incomparable. That said this acquisition seems like a great fit and doesn’t trouble me at all. As much as I love it, GitHub is nothing special. Microsoft has little to ruin and a lot to improve. Seems like a solid vanity pickup for MSFT, and a good source of guiding vision for GH.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  I really would love to see how XCode is able to display anything for binary Objective-C libraries, beyond pure Assembly. If you want pure Assembly in binary libraries in C++ and C#, Visual Studio can also display them, one just needs to select the right options.
  - linkmotif 8y ago
    > I really would love to see how XCode is able to display anything for binary Objective-C libraries, beyond pure Assembly. Indeed it only shows disassembly. I was frustrated that VS wouldn't even show me that. Others write that newer VS lets you enable the showing of assembly. Anyway, I am spoiled by Java, where I can step into standard library code (which is in Java), can decompile to produce pretty nice Java source where the source is not available, and IntelliJ, which automatically downloads the source where it is publicly available. It's quite wonderful. But I am guessing you already know this, judging from your profile. To me, not being beholden to documentation is an incredible freedom. The ability to just pop open the source to understand the tool you're working with is indispensable once you've experience that freedom. Microsoft developers don't have this ability, and having had it, it's hard to imagine being without.
Mononokay 8y ago
Haloween documents, and literally the twenty years they've been trying to destroy free software. Not to mention . . : https://twitter.com/jamiebuilds/status/1002696910266773505 https://twitter.com/jamiebuilds/status/1002696910266773505 Tl;dr, Microsoft ignored his license, attributed nothing, and copied his program directory-by-directory. Fuck Microsoft. Trust them with email, not your software.
sjellis 8y ago
> Meanwhile, I'd really like for people to stop hating Microsoft just because "Microsoft". To be fair, Microsoft need to stop doing stuff that makes people dislike them. Microsoft aggressively court developers who don't use their platforms, but if you are a Microsoft partner or worse, a mere Windows user, you don't always feel so loved.
- schwarrrtz 8y ago
  Case in point: ads in Windows 10.
  - evfanknitram 8y ago
    Are these only available in Home edition? I'm in pro edition and have ever seen any ads. I also use ClassicShell start menu so maybe that's why I never see it...
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      Ads are definitely present in Pro. Perhaps you're just not calling them ads. In the start menu you get "recommended apps", explorer pops up "recommendations" for OneDrive, and when you switch your default browser to Chrome it nags you that you should really give Edge a chance, to name a few things people are referring to when they talk about Windows 10 having ads. Fortunately, there's free third party software that fix a lot of Microsoft's bullshit: https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10 https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10.
      - scaryspooky 8y ago
        Or you delete Cortana and completely break all of that bullshit. Though it has made it so a Windows 10 update will no longer apply, which is a frustrating side effect but one I am willing to live with.
    - frnkr 8y ago
      They're present even in Enterprise versions. The worst part? Every time you upgrade you get all the garbage back: games, ads, etc. I was stupid when testing W10 and didn't backup W7 so I was left with W10. My solution? Bought MBP's for my whole team, and buying more as we grow. I've been MS since ms-dos and walked thru all the versions since 95 (excluding Vista), but now I'm happy Apple guy. All it took was Win 10. :/ I'm kinda missing Win UI but OMG how much I hated W10...I felt so betreyed :(
cm2187 8y ago
I actually was never anti-Microsoft but I must say that the aggressive, user-hostile moves they made with Windows 10 seriously irked me.
sametmax 8y ago
Well, you may love to forget, but a lot of us don't. We didn't forget that our community was called a cancer (https://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_cancer/ https://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/02/ballmer_linux_is_a_...) We didn't forget that microsoft is one of the biggest pattent troll in the world (http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220040230959%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20040230959&RS=DN/20040230959 http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=... or http://www.asymco.com/2011/05/27/microsoft-has-received-five-times-more-income-from-android-than-from-windows-phone/ http://www.asymco.com/2011/05/27/microsoft-has-received-five...). We didn't forget than they litterally corrupted officials to capture markets (https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrawrage/2013/03/20/microsoft-whistleblower-allegations-highlight-global-corruption-risks/#265aede42599 https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexandrawrage/2013/03/20/micro... and https://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/pots-de-vin-microsoft,1-45570.html https://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/pots-de-vin-microsoft,1...) We didn't forget monopolistic practices (https://www.networkworld.com/article/2221165/microsoft-subnet/a-blast-from-the-past---microsoft-accused-of-monopolistic-practices.html https://www.networkworld.com/article/2221165/microsoft-subne... or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Corp https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor...) We didn't forget the lies (http://practical-tech.com/operating-system/2096/ http://practical-tech.com/operating-system/2096/) and sabotage (http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009051922175320 http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2009051922175320). We didn't forget they aided dictators (https://www.salon.com/2011/09/06/wikileaks_microsoft_tunisia https://www.salon.com/2011/09/06/wikileaks_microsoft_tunisia) or destroyed products you bought remotly (http://sebsauvage.net/rhaa/?2010/01/06/13/21/41-microsoft-peine-de-mort-par-flashage http://sebsauvage.net/rhaa/?2010/01/06/13/21/41-microsoft-pe...). We didn't forget they force updated Win10 and all the integrated ads and spywares, after a terrible Win8 while everybody was happy with win 7. We didn't forget that microsoft killed rare, nokia, skype and that currently outlook is becomming less and less usable everyday. So yeah, VSCode, Excel, TypeScript, the Xbox and C# are good products. So what ? Unless you suddently fire everybody from MS, change their raison de vivre, and reboot them, they are still Microsoft. Attitude like yours is why crooked politicians get reelected. Why big companies can mess up with consummers and get away with it. People say that you can't change the world. That you can't do anything about what's wrong. They feel helpless. I'd start with stopping this habit of giving a free pass to all the entities with a disrespectful background just because they got better on some points. Or because they have a better PR. Because they do. Half of the links I had on them were cleaned off. They are green washing them, cm by cm. Until all that remains is that they were the good guys.
erlich 8y ago
Microsoft need to stop creating sub-par products. Skype is absolute junk...takes me 15 mins to get a call working each time. Microsoft Teams/Planner is junk too. I understand things are changing, but it still feels like they have weak product managers who don't care about the quality and polish of their products.
Konryan 8y ago
People hate Microsoft for "being Microsoft" BECAUSE of what Microsoft is, does and has done. I'm sure you will find most people who voice those opinions have their own reasons, based on history, to be distrustful of Microsoft and the way this acquisition will be handled.
ksec 8y ago
They cant just ask for forgiveness after all that they have done. Action speaks louder than words. I don't care about Open Soruces or Paid or Free. Bring me better products! Bring me better services. Proof it to me that they care. They are obviously doing a lot of things right under Nadella. But asking many to not hating them after 4 years of good and 20 to 40 years of bad may be is a little too much to ask for. They will have to do a lot more to wins us back.
jacksmith21006 8y ago
Dislike the word "hate". It is more people that have been in the industry for a long time know what Microsoft has been all about for a very long time. But finally we have a new culture in software. Where big tech give away crazy amounts of IP. Google gave away Map/Reduce and K8s and TF and so many papers. FB has given away so much also. We finally had a single and neutral site which everyone uses. So things were just fantastic and then the old guard just can't resist and messes it up. Now the big tech companies will have to move to a new site and a single place is no more. Looks like they will move to GitLab which will just become the new GitHub and ironically way down the road MS will probably have to move their code to GitLab if it becomes the new place. There are many, many developers, most developers?, that do not use any MS developement technology. Now without them wanting it MS has injected themselves and will cause a hassle. Either moving your repo to GitLab or now having to go to multiple places to find things. Or confusion if the repo is on Github or Gitlab. It is not a huge hassle but a hassle that was not necessary. That is the thing. The new leaders in the tech world are all about moving the ENTIRE industry forward. But MS move here has slowed the industry as people have new work to deal with it. BTW, do hope we can put to rest that MS has changed. Clearly they have not. I never really thought it as company cultures rarely change. But here is the nice black and white proof.
brightball 8y ago
As soon as SQL Server isn’t an inescapable trap for your data, my impression of Microsoft will improve on the developer side. Right now the idea of doing things that every other major Relational DB can do, like hook directly to ElasticSearch or feed live data into an outside system is crippled. It’s hard to see that as anything other than a business decision that negatively impacts my codebase.

jxi 8y ago

I still use Wunderlist and probably will until they forcefully shut it down. Tried the ToDo app, and I don't get why they basically tried to rewrite Wunderlist. The ToDo app was so buggy and crashed all the time not to mention it's lack of features. Hopefully Microsoft learns from this mistake of trying to do a crappy useless rewrite.

ggg9990 8y ago

It’s very different when it’s a direct competitor, especially one you’re paying $ to every month. CEOs hate funding their competitors.

dspillett 8y ago

There is a large difference in complexity here though, and Wunderlist need extra coding for O365 integration so it wasn't just redevelopment purely for a platform shift. GitHub more complex than todo-list-on-steroids app so a platform change would not make any real sense. MS today may still have some of its old habits but they do seem to have purged a lot of the "not invented here" problem that caused much embarrassment when the first attempts to migrate HotMail over to MS technologies failed. It also has pretty good integration with relevant MS tools (VS & VS.code, etc.). I expect to see them moving the base infrastructure over to Azure, but non-MS technologies are well enough supported on the platform so that won't require any notable changes to the main codebase of the product itself (though perhaps some rework of the deployment processes to make them more optimal for their new target network?). These days they care a lot more about what runs on Azure than what is written using .Net and even what runs on Windows, and are comfortable releasing their own code using other tech (VS.code being based on Electron being the first example that springs to mind). They'd prefer you used an MS stack from top to bottom of course, but they are more than happy for projects to use other components in/on Azure. It'll be interesting to see how they would position it alongside TFS, as there is a lot of overlap between the two products. My guess is they'd keep pushing TFS for people who are completely MS shops and GH for people with more varied stacks.

dspillett 8y ago
> VS.code being based on Electron (self reply as it is too late to edit) As pointed out in another location I post: Electron was created at GitHub and they are its primary maintainer which may have had some bearing on the decision, and a wider effect as it could touch many other projects. Though as Electron is open source there is always the fork option if the community doesn't like the direction MS go with it. Looks like their will be two sets of automatic posts on news of any project that used Electron: those bemoaning its use because it is Electron and those bemoaning its use because MS!