11 ms·

Secret to longevity may lie in the microbiome and the gut

154 points by Mrtierne 8y ago

baxtr 8y ago
The topic microbime is definitely on the rise right now. It will soon reach mainstream media. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=Microbiome https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge...
unicornporn 8y ago
In a few years we might look back at this period and think: oh, it was at the time when we thought gut bacteria was the solution to every health problem known to mankind. Remember when it was vitamin D?
- sametmax 8y ago
  It's better than to ignore it's part of a healthy body.
  - 8u23u0893290u 8y ago
    But important to remember we're composites of organs, tissues, and cell types/structures.
- mobilefriendly 8y ago
  Vitamin D is still going strong, recent studies about the benefits to every thing from fetal babies to lower belly fat to reducing mental illness.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Maybe one day we'll realize that there is no single factor for good health. Maybe it's Vitamin D AND gut bacteria AND lot of other factors that are even individually different?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- beenBoutIT 8y ago
  The gut bacteria findings go against the previously held view that antibiotics were the solution to every health problem known to mankind.
  - ImaCake 8y ago
    It turns out antibiotics are actually pretty awful - they wreak havoc on your microbiome, they modulate your immune system in weird ways, they cause some weird allergies. But they are still way better than the diseases they cure, and definitely better than death!
    - andrei_says_ 8y ago
      Except that they get prescribed a lot, almost as an insurance.
      - acchow 8y ago
        And in some countries, they give antibiotics for viral infections because patients just want them! Got the common cold? Here's some Amoxicillin!
        janekm 8y ago
        Worse, in China they are sold OTC and are as popular as you suggest (aside from being the thing that is prescribed on nearly every doctors visit to a health center). Even though anti-viral medicines (for what little good those do...) are also available OTC...
    - neor 8y ago
      Yep, antibiotics are the lesser evil. The only thing I really don't agree with is how easily and how much it is used in our food production. Toxins move up the food chain, and with humans being pretty much the top of that chain we shouldn't be dumping medicine into livestock just to keep them from getting sick.
- cJ0th 8y ago
  We should already know better that there most likely is no "secret". That is, it's probably more than one special variable we have to look at. Somehow many scientists are having a hard time to let go of one dimensional thinking.
- acchow 8y ago
  In a few years, we might look back at this period and think: oh, it was at the time when we actually thought correlation studies had any value.
- TangoTrotFox 8y ago
  I think this is very different in that it's something we previously completely disregarded in health outcomes. We consume various things that we know wreak havoc on our gut biome including antibiotics and various residual herbicides, but it was felt that this was mostly harmless as the gut biome did not play a critical role in our physiological condition. Now it's seeming that it may indeed be quite a critical system in the human physiological condition and so it's more of an entirely new field of study than a miracle cure. I feel as though there is some degree of ostrich-syndrome when it comes to the deterioration of American physical and mental health. Something is causing this change, and most convenient explanations (lethargic lifestyles, internet, etc) do not really work since that would imply a comparable decline in other areas that have also seen such changes, yet the correlations there are spotty at best.
  - Elrac 8y ago
    As far as I know, the US is the only prosperous country where life expectancies are going down. Makes one sit back and think, no? A lot of factors are probably involved as you say, but if I had to guess at the elephant-in-the-room dominant factor I'd say it's the US's model of what's euphemistically called "health care" and "health insurance." It's a complete no-brainer that people who can't afford medical treatment are dying earlier.
    - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
      Look at the reasons that people are dying. It's been blamed on things like the opioid crisis but the numbers in no way support such 'hypothesis', which don't even really qualify as such. Cardiovascular disease, heart failure, stroke, diabetic complications, etc are where the big increases are coming from. And nearly all the major causes of death that are increasing are strongly linked with obesity, which is skyrocketing out of control. This is what I was alluding to early when suggesting that this change is, in turn, blamed on lethargic lifestyles, the internet, etc yet such changes are also happening in other nations yet they are not experiencing such radical shifts in lack of healthfulness.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  When was vitamin D discredited?
- dhimes 8y ago
  That's also how chiropractics started.
gojomo 8y ago
I'm a believer in the importance of the microbiome, but this study seems fishy: * the authors have already started a company and pursued a patent on their ayurvedic-derived formulation * the figure 1(a) in their paper (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25382-z#Fig1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25382-z#Fig1) doesn't show a big difference from plain probiotics to their formulation, but does show some oddities in the Y-axis where, for the control group, there were clearly exactly just 10 flies' mortality measured (integer steps down), but apparently many, many more for other cases scaled to the 0-10 axis. * it's unclear if the treatments/evaluations where blinded – the word 'blind' is not found in the Nature article * the 1st comment on the Nature article wonders: "the control flies didn't live to their normal expected age or even close. What gives?" (Perhaps the flies that lived longer just had more food in total?)
- ImaCake 8y ago
  I'm glad someone else shares my skepticism. Looks like they may be guilty of P-hacking in those graphs. I think this paper has value, in that it basically replicates the SCFA diet results others have seen. But the qPCR graphs are kinda hopeless. >the authors have already started a company and pursued a patent on their ayurvedic-derived formulation The fruit fly microbiome is exactly 2 organisms. The human microbiome is somewhat more complex - several hundred genera at least. It's pretty hard to draw a connection between the microbiomes of these two animals.
- chmike 8y ago
  I would´t trust my nose to detect fishiness. These expermients simply need to be reproduced independently to be verified. Until then, it's anti-scientific to assume anything about fishiness. The reported facts do NOT PROVE that the results were forged.
  - krageon 8y ago
    Nobody is claiming that it does. They are indicating possible economic investment in the results and some questionable statistics. It is perfectly scientific to take these pieces of evidence and adjust the possibility of this study being fishy upwards.
deepsun 8y ago
Advertisement of a herbal supplement.
ogennadi 8y ago
> Scientists fed fruit flies with a combination of probiotics and an herbal supplement called Triphala that was able to prolong the flies' longevity by 60 percent and protect them against chronic diseases associated with aging. For comparison, dietary restriction increases longevity in rats and mice by up to 45%, but this may only be in lab animals https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299887/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299887/
gweinberg 8y ago
I think there's been very little evolutionary pressure to increase lifespan in creatures like fruit flies since despite their short lifespan few of them die from age related causes. I would assume it's pretty easy to increase the lifetime of short-lived creatures in a protected environment, and pretty unlikely that the methods which accomplish this would also extend the lives of long-lived creatures.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- kojon55 8y ago
  What do fruit flies usually die from?
  - ralusek 8y ago
    Broken hearts.
  - masonic 8y ago
    Bad autopilot implementations.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - ItsMe000001 8y ago
    Looks silly at first glance, but I think it is a very interesting question. Asking Google I found a lot of "they die", but no good research about the cause (admittedly, I only spend a few minutes). Only one other - still open - question on Quora: https://www.quora.com/Has-anyone-tracked-the-cause-of-death-in-fruit-fly-aging-studies https://www.quora.com/Has-anyone-tracked-the-cause-of-death-... -- The only answer says it has not been studied thoroughly, but it is from someone whose professional and job title ("Biomedical gerontologist, Chief Science Officer of SENS Foundation") sound like he would/should know. I think it is implied that the cause of death is ageing? What else would it be (lab fruit flies don't have predators)? I found a hint here: http://genomics.senescence.info/species/entry.php?species=Drosophila_melanogaster http://genomics.senescence.info/species/entry.php?species=Dr... > Little is known about causes of death in old fruit flies but cardiac ageing has been reported [0981]. That sentence indicates that the question is not very well researched? If that is true I find it amazing that there are ageing studies, shouldn't their own cause of death be well-known? To @gweinberg, if you are reading this, what do you base this on? You wrote > few of them die from age related causes
Latteland 8y ago
Wait, it's an internet law that every article that asks if "<something> may be the solution to <some problem>" it is never the solution.
- relaunched 8y ago
  Clickbait's Law
avip 8y ago
I’m working in proximate space. Every research paper about nutrition in general and gut bacteria specifically should be assumed shit science.
- 3eto 8y ago
  Interested in learning more if you have time to expand. Cheers
  - avip 8y ago
    Sure. I see 3 recurring issues with "nutritional research" I'm exposed to: 1. Wayyyyy too much industry involvement, much of it not properly disclosed (OP here is a classical and representative example). 2. Lots of research from relatively small and "less known" institutes, done by researchers with hard to verify credentials. 3. Low scientific standards. That'd include: - Refusal to share data - Refusal to share data analysis methods - Not keeping the basics of a double-blinded test - No reproduction, and not even the possibility of independent reproducibility, as the methods are described so vaguely. That's in a nutshell.
    - nonbel 8y ago
      This sounds like standard biomed to me: - Refusal to share data - Refusal to share data analysis methods - Not keeping the basics of a double-blinded test - No reproduction, and not even the possibility of independent reproducibility, as the methods are described so vaguely. Can you link to a recent paper that doesnt run afoul of at least one of your criteria. Especially the last...
    - ianai 8y ago
      You identified the problem. What’s the solution?
      - neuronic 8y ago
        The solution is identification of bad methods and subsequent ignorance. If only we had a metric for credible science that takes authors, institutions, publisher and funding sources into account....

154 points by Mrtierne 8y ago

The topic microbime is definitely on the rise right now. It will soon reach mainstream media. https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&geo=US&q=Microbiome https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&ge...

unicornporn 8y ago

In a few years we might look back at this period and think: oh, it was at the time when we thought gut bacteria was the solution to every health problem known to mankind. Remember when it was vitamin D?

sametmax 8y ago
It's better than to ignore it's part of a healthy body.
- 8u23u0893290u 8y ago
  But important to remember we're composites of organs, tissues, and cell types/structures.
mobilefriendly 8y ago
Vitamin D is still going strong, recent studies about the benefits to every thing from fetal babies to lower belly fat to reducing mental illness.
maxxxxx 8y ago
Maybe one day we'll realize that there is no single factor for good health. Maybe it's Vitamin D AND gut bacteria AND lot of other factors that are even individually different?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
beenBoutIT 8y ago
The gut bacteria findings go against the previously held view that antibiotics were the solution to every health problem known to mankind.
- ImaCake 8y ago
  It turns out antibiotics are actually pretty awful - they wreak havoc on your microbiome, they modulate your immune system in weird ways, they cause some weird allergies. But they are still way better than the diseases they cure, and definitely better than death!
  - andrei_says_ 8y ago
    Except that they get prescribed a lot, almost as an insurance.
    - acchow 8y ago
      And in some countries, they give antibiotics for viral infections because patients just want them! Got the common cold? Here's some Amoxicillin!
      - janekm 8y ago
        Worse, in China they are sold OTC and are as popular as you suggest (aside from being the thing that is prescribed on nearly every doctors visit to a health center). Even though anti-viral medicines (for what little good those do...) are also available OTC...
  - neor 8y ago
    Yep, antibiotics are the lesser evil. The only thing I really don't agree with is how easily and how much it is used in our food production. Toxins move up the food chain, and with humans being pretty much the top of that chain we shouldn't be dumping medicine into livestock just to keep them from getting sick.
cJ0th 8y ago
We should already know better that there most likely is no "secret". That is, it's probably more than one special variable we have to look at. Somehow many scientists are having a hard time to let go of one dimensional thinking.
acchow 8y ago
In a few years, we might look back at this period and think: oh, it was at the time when we actually thought correlation studies had any value.
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
I think this is very different in that it's something we previously completely disregarded in health outcomes. We consume various things that we know wreak havoc on our gut biome including antibiotics and various residual herbicides, but it was felt that this was mostly harmless as the gut biome did not play a critical role in our physiological condition. Now it's seeming that it may indeed be quite a critical system in the human physiological condition and so it's more of an entirely new field of study than a miracle cure. I feel as though there is some degree of ostrich-syndrome when it comes to the deterioration of American physical and mental health. Something is causing this change, and most convenient explanations (lethargic lifestyles, internet, etc) do not really work since that would imply a comparable decline in other areas that have also seen such changes, yet the correlations there are spotty at best.
- Elrac 8y ago
  As far as I know, the US is the only prosperous country where life expectancies are going down. Makes one sit back and think, no? A lot of factors are probably involved as you say, but if I had to guess at the elephant-in-the-room dominant factor I'd say it's the US's model of what's euphemistically called "health care" and "health insurance." It's a complete no-brainer that people who can't afford medical treatment are dying earlier.
  - TangoTrotFox 8y ago
    Look at the reasons that people are dying. It's been blamed on things like the opioid crisis but the numbers in no way support such 'hypothesis', which don't even really qualify as such. Cardiovascular disease, heart failure, stroke, diabetic complications, etc are where the big increases are coming from. And nearly all the major causes of death that are increasing are strongly linked with obesity, which is skyrocketing out of control. This is what I was alluding to early when suggesting that this change is, in turn, blamed on lethargic lifestyles, the internet, etc yet such changes are also happening in other nations yet they are not experiencing such radical shifts in lack of healthfulness.
SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
When was vitamin D discredited?
dhimes 8y ago
That's also how chiropractics started.

gojomo 8y ago

I'm a believer in the importance of the microbiome, but this study seems fishy: * the authors have already started a company and pursued a patent on their ayurvedic-derived formulation * the figure 1(a) in their paper (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25382-z#Fig1 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-25382-z#Fig1) doesn't show a big difference from plain probiotics to their formulation, but does show some oddities in the Y-axis where, for the control group, there were clearly exactly just 10 flies' mortality measured (integer steps down), but apparently many, many more for other cases scaled to the 0-10 axis. * it's unclear if the treatments/evaluations where blinded – the word 'blind' is not found in the Nature article * the 1st comment on the Nature article wonders: "the control flies didn't live to their normal expected age or even close. What gives?" (Perhaps the flies that lived longer just had more food in total?)

ImaCake 8y ago
I'm glad someone else shares my skepticism. Looks like they may be guilty of P-hacking in those graphs. I think this paper has value, in that it basically replicates the SCFA diet results others have seen. But the qPCR graphs are kinda hopeless. >the authors have already started a company and pursued a patent on their ayurvedic-derived formulation The fruit fly microbiome is exactly 2 organisms. The human microbiome is somewhat more complex - several hundred genera at least. It's pretty hard to draw a connection between the microbiomes of these two animals.
chmike 8y ago
I would´t trust my nose to detect fishiness. These expermients simply need to be reproduced independently to be verified. Until then, it's anti-scientific to assume anything about fishiness. The reported facts do NOT PROVE that the results were forged.
- krageon 8y ago
  Nobody is claiming that it does. They are indicating possible economic investment in the results and some questionable statistics. It is perfectly scientific to take these pieces of evidence and adjust the possibility of this study being fishy upwards.

deepsun 8y ago

Advertisement of a herbal supplement.

ogennadi 8y ago

> Scientists fed fruit flies with a combination of probiotics and an herbal supplement called Triphala that was able to prolong the flies' longevity by 60 percent and protect them against chronic diseases associated with aging. For comparison, dietary restriction increases longevity in rats and mice by up to 45%, but this may only be in lab animals https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299887/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3299887/

gweinberg 8y ago

I think there's been very little evolutionary pressure to increase lifespan in creatures like fruit flies since despite their short lifespan few of them die from age related causes. I would assume it's pretty easy to increase the lifetime of short-lived creatures in a protected environment, and pretty unlikely that the methods which accomplish this would also extend the lives of long-lived creatures.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
kojon55 8y ago
What do fruit flies usually die from?
- ralusek 8y ago
  Broken hearts.
- masonic 8y ago
  Bad autopilot implementations.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  Looks silly at first glance, but I think it is a very interesting question. Asking Google I found a lot of "they die", but no good research about the cause (admittedly, I only spend a few minutes). Only one other - still open - question on Quora: https://www.quora.com/Has-anyone-tracked-the-cause-of-death-in-fruit-fly-aging-studies https://www.quora.com/Has-anyone-tracked-the-cause-of-death-... -- The only answer says it has not been studied thoroughly, but it is from someone whose professional and job title ("Biomedical gerontologist, Chief Science Officer of SENS Foundation") sound like he would/should know. I think it is implied that the cause of death is ageing? What else would it be (lab fruit flies don't have predators)? I found a hint here: http://genomics.senescence.info/species/entry.php?species=Drosophila_melanogaster http://genomics.senescence.info/species/entry.php?species=Dr... > Little is known about causes of death in old fruit flies but cardiac ageing has been reported [0981]. That sentence indicates that the question is not very well researched? If that is true I find it amazing that there are ageing studies, shouldn't their own cause of death be well-known? To @gweinberg, if you are reading this, what do you base this on? You wrote > few of them die from age related causes

Latteland 8y ago

Wait, it's an internet law that every article that asks if "<something> may be the solution to <some problem>" it is never the solution.

relaunched 8y ago
Clickbait's Law

avip 8y ago

I’m working in proximate space. Every research paper about nutrition in general and gut bacteria specifically should be assumed shit science.

3eto 8y ago
Interested in learning more if you have time to expand. Cheers
- avip 8y ago
  Sure. I see 3 recurring issues with "nutritional research" I'm exposed to: 1. Wayyyyy too much industry involvement, much of it not properly disclosed (OP here is a classical and representative example). 2. Lots of research from relatively small and "less known" institutes, done by researchers with hard to verify credentials. 3. Low scientific standards. That'd include: - Refusal to share data - Refusal to share data analysis methods - Not keeping the basics of a double-blinded test - No reproduction, and not even the possibility of independent reproducibility, as the methods are described so vaguely. That's in a nutshell.
  - nonbel 8y ago
    This sounds like standard biomed to me: - Refusal to share data - Refusal to share data analysis methods - Not keeping the basics of a double-blinded test - No reproduction, and not even the possibility of independent reproducibility, as the methods are described so vaguely. Can you link to a recent paper that doesnt run afoul of at least one of your criteria. Especially the last...
  - ianai 8y ago
    You identified the problem. What’s the solution?
    - neuronic 8y ago
      The solution is identification of bad methods and subsequent ignorance. If only we had a metric for credible science that takes authors, institutions, publisher and funding sources into account....