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> I'm glad we had unions, but they also have a dark side, where they can function more like a corrupt cartel over time. someone standing up for your rights and

> I'm glad we had unions, but they also have a dark side, where they can function more like a corrupt cartel over time. someone standing up for your rights and asking for compensation to do it is a lot more than any kind of ridiculous disruption mode you can imagine. so much of the next generation is being told coding is the only job skill they'll need, what do you think will happen when they've flooded the market? we live in a plutocracy waging a war on workers rights, we are gonna need unions and we're gonna need them immediately.

ggg9990 8y ago
Eventually, whether through unions, politics, or guns, the people who can’t code are going to demand more than zero-wage Uber driving.
- rainbowmverse 8y ago
  And the guillotines this time around will be aesthetically flawless engineering marvels made by people who graduated into a saturated job market.
- mrguyorama 8y ago
  Why do you assume the people coding are making more than zero-wage Uber drivers?
brownbat 8y ago
> someone standing up for your rights and asking for compensation to do it They sure would be awfully fine institutions if that's how they actually worked.
- chii 8y ago
  So how _does_ it actually work then?
  - brownbat 8y ago
    Tried to address that a few comments up. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17218381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17218381 Sorry it's a wall of text. I suck at brevity. In my defense it's a complex topic and I'm trying to credit some good points on both sides. And ok, I was too flip in my last comment, frustrated that its parent seemed to completely ignore my main point. At their best, maybe some unions do still work that way. Many don't though. Most blue collar guys I know found the teamsters especially abusive. Separately, investigations into construction in New York invariably find its unions rife with mafia-ties and racketeering. But there are some good cases out there too, I'm sure. I just think the best of both worlds is to incorporate fair practices into our legal structures, rather than create new centers of power.
    - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
      Legal structures are meaningless without the political and economic power to enforce them. But beyond that, it’s about values. You can’t start with a business culture that rewards competitive greed and narcissism over empathy and cooperation and expect it to suddenly start acting against its own core ethics.
      - brownbat 8y ago
        Jelly raised this above too. Pasting my reply at the end here. But I agree with you that values are central. I'd back more investigations to uncover corporations with internal cultures more like Enron and root out bad actors in such places earlier, if we could do that fairly. > Those most in need of the labor rights and respect unions traditionally afford are often those who have almost no access to the legal system. This seems like a powerful concern in theory but the facts make me optimistic. I haven't found, say, OSHA to be toothless in practice, the DOL routinely brings aggressive overtime violations cases, and enforcement of the civil rights act against particularly southern hotels and gas stations by federal courts are all powerful counterexamples. They are not comprehensively solved problems, but clearly demonstrate that organs of state power can and have been used in defense of marginalized groups. I'd say especially Federal courts, but several agencies have done impressive work too.

ggg9990 8y ago

Eventually, whether through unions, politics, or guns, the people who can’t code are going to demand more than zero-wage Uber driving.

rainbowmverse 8y ago
And the guillotines this time around will be aesthetically flawless engineering marvels made by people who graduated into a saturated job market.
mrguyorama 8y ago
Why do you assume the people coding are making more than zero-wage Uber drivers?

brownbat 8y ago

> someone standing up for your rights and asking for compensation to do it They sure would be awfully fine institutions if that's how they actually worked.

chii 8y ago
So how _does_ it actually work then?
- brownbat 8y ago
  Tried to address that a few comments up. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17218381 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17218381 Sorry it's a wall of text. I suck at brevity. In my defense it's a complex topic and I'm trying to credit some good points on both sides. And ok, I was too flip in my last comment, frustrated that its parent seemed to completely ignore my main point. At their best, maybe some unions do still work that way. Many don't though. Most blue collar guys I know found the teamsters especially abusive. Separately, investigations into construction in New York invariably find its unions rife with mafia-ties and racketeering. But there are some good cases out there too, I'm sure. I just think the best of both worlds is to incorporate fair practices into our legal structures, rather than create new centers of power.
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    Legal structures are meaningless without the political and economic power to enforce them. But beyond that, it’s about values. You can’t start with a business culture that rewards competitive greed and narcissism over empathy and cooperation and expect it to suddenly start acting against its own core ethics.
    - brownbat 8y ago
      Jelly raised this above too. Pasting my reply at the end here. But I agree with you that values are central. I'd back more investigations to uncover corporations with internal cultures more like Enron and root out bad actors in such places earlier, if we could do that fairly. > Those most in need of the labor rights and respect unions traditionally afford are often those who have almost no access to the legal system. This seems like a powerful concern in theory but the facts make me optimistic. I haven't found, say, OSHA to be toothless in practice, the DOL routinely brings aggressive overtime violations cases, and enforcement of the civil rights act against particularly southern hotels and gas stations by federal courts are all powerful counterexamples. They are not comprehensively solved problems, but clearly demonstrate that organs of state power can and have been used in defense of marginalized groups. I'd say especially Federal courts, but several agencies have done impressive work too.