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As a counterpoint, Canada (and presumably the US too) has seen a dramatic decrease in unintentional injury mortality among children over the last 70 years. htt

As a counterpoint, Canada (and presumably the US too) has seen a dramatic decrease in unintentional injury mortality among children over the last 70 years. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28026710 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28026710

ghaff 8y ago
Yes, although that study suggests the big declines have been with things like choking and burns among very young children. I don't think anyone is arguing for more dangerous products or getting rid of safety precautions for toddlers. That study also suggests more vehicle-related accidents but it's hard to know what to make of that without knowing more about the type of accidents, population patterns, etc.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  >I don't think anyone is arguing for more dangerous products or safety precautions for toddlers. Maybe some people think that way. Colloquially, I've heard about a million times Europeans laugh at how ridiculous they think some laws are in that regard, such as Kinder eggs being banned in America.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    As with many things, there's probably a lot of focus on edge cases about which reasonable people can disagree. Bucky balls were another recent case. And then there's the sheaf of safety warnings that come with every product and no one ever reads. But, mostly, getting rid of small parts in toddler toys, avoiding sharp edges, baby monitors, etc. are probably significant net positives for safety without a whole lot of downside.
    - astura 8y ago
      The ban on bucky balls was overturned in court. https://www.popsci.com/buckyballs-are-back-on-market https://www.popsci.com/buckyballs-are-back-on-market
  - JackCh 8y ago
    Are kinder eggs actually a dangerous product, or are they just getting swept up by broader American legislation? It's my understanding the American law preventing the importation of kinder eggs is a law against inedible objects from being embedded inside edible objects, which seems generally reasonable. Generally. But are Kinder eggs actually dangerous? Are many European children dying because of Kinder eggs specifically?
    - ghaff 8y ago
      Very unusual but apparently it can happen: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/kinder-egg-toy-death-france-three-year-old-french-girl-chokes-a6822626.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/kinder-egg-t...
      - Luc 8y ago
        Note she choked on the toy, not on the egg. That could have happened with a US-friendly 'chocolate egg with toy not inside it' packaging as well. The egg has been redesigned some years ago. The two parts now stay attached together.
    - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
      Kinder eggs are something that were swept up in a generally well-meaning legislation. It improved safety overall, but generally disallows such products to be sold lest there be a choking hazard. All that said, I think there are ways to get exceptions, but they are shy to give them away. And it really is a shame in this case: though there have been perhaps a handful of suspected choking cases in children, overall they have been quite reasonably safe (based on years and years of them being sold to children elsewhere). It simply winds up being a silly ban done for a good overall reason.
    - koide 8y ago
      I would dispute the reasonableness of that law... Does it apply to cherries, olives, avocado, apples, pears, etc.?
      - 8y ago
  - civilitty 8y ago
    It's not the eggs that are banned, the FDA bans the practice of putting inedible objects fully encased in edible things in general. I loved me my Kinder Surprise when I was a kid but I don't think that's an unreasonable restriction when it comes to products marketed towards children (I don't know if it applies across the board or only to things marketed at children). Kinder has introduced an American version now where the egg is split vertically into two halves - one half has the chocolate and the other half has the toy so that there's no risk of accidentally eating it. I'm not sure if they do the assembly required toys for the American version but I see the eggs everywhere now.
    - repsilat 8y ago
      Huh, I guess I have never seen "fake bone-in chicken". Interesting that food can contain inedible objects, but you're not allowed to put them there. At this point I guess it would be helpful to know the letter of the law/regulation, but it's also probably not important enough to bother. Do big American Easter eggs sometimes come with plastic bags of smaller candies inside? Those seem less likely to be a choking hazard, but similar enough that they could fall afoul of the law that hits the Kinder eggs.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      How do tiered cakes work in USA? Wedding cakes, for example, in UK often have hidden 'pillars' inside the lower tiers to provide structural strength. Perhaps there's a size limit on embedded non-edible components.
      - 5DFractalTetris 8y ago
        I could tell you but it'd void your cake's warranty.
      - seandougall 8y ago
        That happens here too, but a lot of the stricter regulations apply only to prepackaged foods; I expect this is one of those. King cakes are another example — commonly enjoyed despite how many baby Jesuses have been swallowed or choked on.
- cma 8y ago
  > I don't think anyone is arguing for more dangerous products or getting rid of safety precautions for toddlers. Extreme "get the government off our back" people are definitely arguing for that.
ballenf 8y ago
Valid point, but we should also therefore include suicides in adults where it resulted from childhood anxiety issues caused by overprotectiveness.
JackCh 8y ago
Has there been any change in the rate of depression or other mental disorders in minors, and if so, is loss of autonomy one of the factors in this?
- watwut 8y ago
  It is hard to say, since we diagnose more then before. Anecdotally, some say that yes there is such rise. Then again, teenagers are now less violent then before, commit less serious crime, get pregnant less often and take drugs less. It is hard to weight those against each other.
  - JackCh 8y ago
    Do they take less drugs, or do they just take less recreational drugs? Anecdotally, I'd wager kids are taking more drugs than ever before, specifically the kind that come with a prescription. And we could really get into the weeds with which recreational drugs are/were popular with kids... And I'd also wager that the number of kids negatively impacted by poor mental health today is a lot more than the number of kids negatively impacted by violent youth crime and teenage pregnancies in past years not so far removed from our own. Furthermore we've got a baby/bathwater situation going on here specifically with respect to teenage pregnancy as it relates to minor autonomy. Teaching kids to use condoms and birth control needn't be thrown out with the bathwater that is overprotected children. In fact, I think you could argue that sex education for minors is an exception to the rule, where minors are being given more autonomy today than in the past.
    - watwut 8y ago
      Less heroin and similar addictive drugs. Probably also less marihuanna. Point was they are less likely to be junkies.
      - JackCh 8y ago
        I've seen sources for less cannabis, but I'm skeptical that the proportion of opioid/prescription medication abuse is down. Furthermore there is also the very serious issue of adderrall abuse, which is very common, and doubtlessly related the issue of modern social expectations forced on kids. And beyond that, I'd wager caffeine consumption is also through the roof. When I was a kid it was virtually unheard of for minors to drink coffee, and I never saw colas let alone energy drinks sold in vending machines in schools.
TangoTrotFox 8y ago
A problem with isolated stats is that it doesn't necessarily tell you much about the system from which it was derived. Life and development are extremely complex. Has there been a somehow more difficult to measure cost associated with this? For instance there are also various correlations such as a strong increase in mental illness, a decline in academic performance, and a general infantilization of young adults. I'm not sure it's such a stretch to see how we treat our children as, at least possibly, somehow related.
walshemj 8y ago
Probably due to the reduction in people working on farms which can be dangerous places - there was a documentary on Rick Hall - the founder of Muscle Shoals. He grew up on a farm and one of his siblings was scaled to death and later when he had made money a tractor he had brought for his father overturned killing him.
astura 8y ago
Unintentional injury includes car crashes which have been getting less deadly thanks to increasing safety standards, seat belt laws, car seat laws, graduated licensing, stiffer penalties for DUI (as well as actual enforcement). You're also talking about increasing safety standards on consumer products and packaging leading to less injuries.
m_mueller 8y ago
So does Switzerland where the norm is still to send off children to kindergarden alonr at age 6. Or in Japan where 7 year olds take responsibility over 4 year olds going there (with some adults also warching the crossings). There‘s many ways increasing child safety that don’t mandate parents to helicopter.

ghaff 8y ago

Yes, although that study suggests the big declines have been with things like choking and burns among very young children. I don't think anyone is arguing for more dangerous products or getting rid of safety precautions for toddlers. That study also suggests more vehicle-related accidents but it's hard to know what to make of that without knowing more about the type of accidents, population patterns, etc.

wallace_f 8y ago
>I don't think anyone is arguing for more dangerous products or safety precautions for toddlers. Maybe some people think that way. Colloquially, I've heard about a million times Europeans laugh at how ridiculous they think some laws are in that regard, such as Kinder eggs being banned in America.
- ghaff 8y ago
  As with many things, there's probably a lot of focus on edge cases about which reasonable people can disagree. Bucky balls were another recent case. And then there's the sheaf of safety warnings that come with every product and no one ever reads. But, mostly, getting rid of small parts in toddler toys, avoiding sharp edges, baby monitors, etc. are probably significant net positives for safety without a whole lot of downside.
  - astura 8y ago
    The ban on bucky balls was overturned in court. https://www.popsci.com/buckyballs-are-back-on-market https://www.popsci.com/buckyballs-are-back-on-market
- JackCh 8y ago
  Are kinder eggs actually a dangerous product, or are they just getting swept up by broader American legislation? It's my understanding the American law preventing the importation of kinder eggs is a law against inedible objects from being embedded inside edible objects, which seems generally reasonable. Generally. But are Kinder eggs actually dangerous? Are many European children dying because of Kinder eggs specifically?
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Very unusual but apparently it can happen: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/kinder-egg-toy-death-france-three-year-old-french-girl-chokes-a6822626.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/kinder-egg-t...
    - Luc 8y ago
      Note she choked on the toy, not on the egg. That could have happened with a US-friendly 'chocolate egg with toy not inside it' packaging as well. The egg has been redesigned some years ago. The two parts now stay attached together.
  - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    Kinder eggs are something that were swept up in a generally well-meaning legislation. It improved safety overall, but generally disallows such products to be sold lest there be a choking hazard. All that said, I think there are ways to get exceptions, but they are shy to give them away. And it really is a shame in this case: though there have been perhaps a handful of suspected choking cases in children, overall they have been quite reasonably safe (based on years and years of them being sold to children elsewhere). It simply winds up being a silly ban done for a good overall reason.
  - koide 8y ago
    I would dispute the reasonableness of that law... Does it apply to cherries, olives, avocado, apples, pears, etc.?
    - 8y ago
- civilitty 8y ago
  It's not the eggs that are banned, the FDA bans the practice of putting inedible objects fully encased in edible things in general. I loved me my Kinder Surprise when I was a kid but I don't think that's an unreasonable restriction when it comes to products marketed towards children (I don't know if it applies across the board or only to things marketed at children). Kinder has introduced an American version now where the egg is split vertically into two halves - one half has the chocolate and the other half has the toy so that there's no risk of accidentally eating it. I'm not sure if they do the assembly required toys for the American version but I see the eggs everywhere now.
  - repsilat 8y ago
    Huh, I guess I have never seen "fake bone-in chicken". Interesting that food can contain inedible objects, but you're not allowed to put them there. At this point I guess it would be helpful to know the letter of the law/regulation, but it's also probably not important enough to bother. Do big American Easter eggs sometimes come with plastic bags of smaller candies inside? Those seem less likely to be a choking hazard, but similar enough that they could fall afoul of the law that hits the Kinder eggs.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    How do tiered cakes work in USA? Wedding cakes, for example, in UK often have hidden 'pillars' inside the lower tiers to provide structural strength. Perhaps there's a size limit on embedded non-edible components.
    - 5DFractalTetris 8y ago
      I could tell you but it'd void your cake's warranty.
    - seandougall 8y ago
      That happens here too, but a lot of the stricter regulations apply only to prepackaged foods; I expect this is one of those. King cakes are another example — commonly enjoyed despite how many baby Jesuses have been swallowed or choked on.
cma 8y ago
> I don't think anyone is arguing for more dangerous products or getting rid of safety precautions for toddlers. Extreme "get the government off our back" people are definitely arguing for that.

ballenf 8y ago

Valid point, but we should also therefore include suicides in adults where it resulted from childhood anxiety issues caused by overprotectiveness.

JackCh 8y ago

Has there been any change in the rate of depression or other mental disorders in minors, and if so, is loss of autonomy one of the factors in this?

watwut 8y ago
It is hard to say, since we diagnose more then before. Anecdotally, some say that yes there is such rise. Then again, teenagers are now less violent then before, commit less serious crime, get pregnant less often and take drugs less. It is hard to weight those against each other.
- JackCh 8y ago
  Do they take less drugs, or do they just take less recreational drugs? Anecdotally, I'd wager kids are taking more drugs than ever before, specifically the kind that come with a prescription. And we could really get into the weeds with which recreational drugs are/were popular with kids... And I'd also wager that the number of kids negatively impacted by poor mental health today is a lot more than the number of kids negatively impacted by violent youth crime and teenage pregnancies in past years not so far removed from our own. Furthermore we've got a baby/bathwater situation going on here specifically with respect to teenage pregnancy as it relates to minor autonomy. Teaching kids to use condoms and birth control needn't be thrown out with the bathwater that is overprotected children. In fact, I think you could argue that sex education for minors is an exception to the rule, where minors are being given more autonomy today than in the past.
  - watwut 8y ago
    Less heroin and similar addictive drugs. Probably also less marihuanna. Point was they are less likely to be junkies.
    - JackCh 8y ago
      I've seen sources for less cannabis, but I'm skeptical that the proportion of opioid/prescription medication abuse is down. Furthermore there is also the very serious issue of adderrall abuse, which is very common, and doubtlessly related the issue of modern social expectations forced on kids. And beyond that, I'd wager caffeine consumption is also through the roof. When I was a kid it was virtually unheard of for minors to drink coffee, and I never saw colas let alone energy drinks sold in vending machines in schools.

TangoTrotFox 8y ago

A problem with isolated stats is that it doesn't necessarily tell you much about the system from which it was derived. Life and development are extremely complex. Has there been a somehow more difficult to measure cost associated with this? For instance there are also various correlations such as a strong increase in mental illness, a decline in academic performance, and a general infantilization of young adults. I'm not sure it's such a stretch to see how we treat our children as, at least possibly, somehow related.

walshemj 8y ago

Probably due to the reduction in people working on farms which can be dangerous places - there was a documentary on Rick Hall - the founder of Muscle Shoals. He grew up on a farm and one of his siblings was scaled to death and later when he had made money a tractor he had brought for his father overturned killing him.

astura 8y ago

Unintentional injury includes car crashes which have been getting less deadly thanks to increasing safety standards, seat belt laws, car seat laws, graduated licensing, stiffer penalties for DUI (as well as actual enforcement). You're also talking about increasing safety standards on consumer products and packaging leading to less injuries.

m_mueller 8y ago

So does Switzerland where the norm is still to send off children to kindergarden alonr at age 6. Or in Japan where 7 year olds take responsibility over 4 year olds going there (with some adults also warching the crossings). There‘s many ways increasing child safety that don’t mandate parents to helicopter.