6 ms·

There is a common saying: "There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order." Emphasis on Pleas

by JackCh 8y ago

There is a common saying: "There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo. Please use in that order." Emphasis on Please use in that order. I can't believe this needs to be emphasized, but killing people should be a last resort. I'm glad these "2nd Amendment advocates" aren't as trigger happy as you seem to suggest they be. I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that shooting people before nonviolent options are exhausted is depraved.

Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
Well said. I guess the problem is that not enough people know that civil forfeiture is a thing yet. I'm just blown away that such a thing could ever be written into law. I think it's a pretty clear-as-day violation of our Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure.
- userbinator 8y ago
  I guess the problem is that not enough people know that civil forfeiture is a thing yet. ...or that not enough people have experienced it yet, and probably never will. There's a lot of "it won't happen to me" thinking around this, and to be honest, how many people do take large amounts of cash with them while traveling? The fact that this item is newsworthy is enough to show that it happens rarely. I'm almost willing to bet that if the number of people affected goes high enough, there will be armed revolts; but the government is smart enough to not do that, instead preferring to strip liberties in tiny bits at a time.
  - therealtomsmith 8y ago
    > but the government is smart enough to not do that you're talking about our government?
  - stordoff 8y ago
    > There's a lot of "it won't happen to me" thinking around this And probably thinking "They had a reason to do it", which I don't think has shown to be the case.
MattyRad 8y ago
I haven't heard that saying before but I think it very succinctly describes an order of escalation that some people, parent comment included, might not immediately appreciate. Additional info for anyone interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_boxes_of_liberty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_boxes_of_liberty
gowld 8y ago
The first 3 have long been exhausted for civil forfeiture.
- JackCh 8y ago
  I disagree and I strongly discourage you from shooting people. There is still a large portion of the public who don't know what civil forfeiture is or why it's a bad thing. If you want to make a difference the best thing you can do right is educate people.
  - chmod775 8y ago
    > I disagree He's factually correct though. I don't see how you can disagree with the fact that the supreme court already ruled these practices legal (jury), neither republicans nor democrats managed to fix the matter (ballot), and the average american showers once a day... Stories like these have been all over the news under both republican and democratic presidents and congress - nothing changed. Don't give people a four-step program and then act aghast they're considering to go through with it. Find a better four-step program/quote instead.
    - JackCh 8y ago
      >"He's factually correct though." It's not a fact that soap box options have been exhausted. It's merely your opinion that the soap box has been tried enough, to the point that giving up on trying to inform and persuade people is rational and/or ethical. But... is that actually your opinion? You're here arguing online using your soap box, instead of waging a guerilla war against the system. So I think in actual fact you haven't given up on the soap box. Or at least you still see value in the soap box for purposes of inciting a rebellion?
  - manicdee 8y ago
    The soap box has already been used. People don't care. The ballot box has already been used. Both sides either take no action or work to extend the practise. People still don't care. The jury box has already been used, the supreme court has ruled this legal. People still don't care. If you think it's too soon to resort to the ammo box, you need to reevaluate your perspective on the government in the USA. Remember, "all it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing."
mindslight 8y ago
Technology has obsoleted all four of those boxen. Democracy went from a metric to the model, which was then economically optimized out. Now the information flow runs the other direction - the modern political apparatus efficiently distributes public opinion rather than gathering it. Our remaining hope is a newfound fifth - the personal computation box.
- JackCh 8y ago
  I disagree with your conclusion. While it's true technological advances have rendered many traditional forms of soap boxes obsolete, that means we need to develop new more capable soap boxes. But perhaps this is what you allude to with "the personal computation box"? (And as for the ammo box, guerilla fighters have proven resourceful. Modern guerilla warfare and its relationship to technology is an interesting subject you can dive deep into. One must also keep in mind modern 'win' conditions for guerilla fighters, many of which don't look much like win conditions in traditional warfare. But I don't think our present situation will come to this.)
  - mindslight 8y ago
    "We" just developed the most capable soap box yet - "social media". It's worsening the problem. I expressly do not mean the computation box as a new version of soap box (ie general means for swaying opinion), but as a type of private meeting place where individuals may freely associate for their own mutually-beneficial purposes. Guerilla warfare can only exist when there's a local consensus against an (outside) imposing military. This possibility is obviated by democracy, which guarantees that the non-military majority opinion will carry without having to shoot. It's a last defense against outside conquerors, but not domestically-grown totalitarianism. Our modern conundrum is that opinion is being defined by mass media, and now interactive-personalized mass media (the Inception effect is powerful). The same process that has anointed this succession of hopechange-actor presidents also assures those ammo boxen are mutedly waiting for the bogeyman.

by JackCh 8y ago

Sohcahtoa82 8y ago

Well said. I guess the problem is that not enough people know that civil forfeiture is a thing yet. I'm just blown away that such a thing could ever be written into law. I think it's a pretty clear-as-day violation of our Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable search and seizure.

userbinator 8y ago
I guess the problem is that not enough people know that civil forfeiture is a thing yet. ...or that not enough people have experienced it yet, and probably never will. There's a lot of "it won't happen to me" thinking around this, and to be honest, how many people do take large amounts of cash with them while traveling? The fact that this item is newsworthy is enough to show that it happens rarely. I'm almost willing to bet that if the number of people affected goes high enough, there will be armed revolts; but the government is smart enough to not do that, instead preferring to strip liberties in tiny bits at a time.
- therealtomsmith 8y ago
  > but the government is smart enough to not do that you're talking about our government?
- stordoff 8y ago
  > There's a lot of "it won't happen to me" thinking around this And probably thinking "They had a reason to do it", which I don't think has shown to be the case.

MattyRad 8y ago

I haven't heard that saying before but I think it very succinctly describes an order of escalation that some people, parent comment included, might not immediately appreciate. Additional info for anyone interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_boxes_of_liberty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_boxes_of_liberty

gowld 8y ago

The first 3 have long been exhausted for civil forfeiture.

JackCh 8y ago
I disagree and I strongly discourage you from shooting people. There is still a large portion of the public who don't know what civil forfeiture is or why it's a bad thing. If you want to make a difference the best thing you can do right is educate people.
- chmod775 8y ago
  > I disagree He's factually correct though. I don't see how you can disagree with the fact that the supreme court already ruled these practices legal (jury), neither republicans nor democrats managed to fix the matter (ballot), and the average american showers once a day... Stories like these have been all over the news under both republican and democratic presidents and congress - nothing changed. Don't give people a four-step program and then act aghast they're considering to go through with it. Find a better four-step program/quote instead.
  - JackCh 8y ago
    >"He's factually correct though." It's not a fact that soap box options have been exhausted. It's merely your opinion that the soap box has been tried enough, to the point that giving up on trying to inform and persuade people is rational and/or ethical. But... is that actually your opinion? You're here arguing online using your soap box, instead of waging a guerilla war against the system. So I think in actual fact you haven't given up on the soap box. Or at least you still see value in the soap box for purposes of inciting a rebellion?
- manicdee 8y ago
  The soap box has already been used. People don't care. The ballot box has already been used. Both sides either take no action or work to extend the practise. People still don't care. The jury box has already been used, the supreme court has ruled this legal. People still don't care. If you think it's too soon to resort to the ammo box, you need to reevaluate your perspective on the government in the USA. Remember, "all it takes for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing."

mindslight 8y ago

Technology has obsoleted all four of those boxen. Democracy went from a metric to the model, which was then economically optimized out. Now the information flow runs the other direction - the modern political apparatus efficiently distributes public opinion rather than gathering it. Our remaining hope is a newfound fifth - the personal computation box.

JackCh 8y ago
I disagree with your conclusion. While it's true technological advances have rendered many traditional forms of soap boxes obsolete, that means we need to develop new more capable soap boxes. But perhaps this is what you allude to with "the personal computation box"? (And as for the ammo box, guerilla fighters have proven resourceful. Modern guerilla warfare and its relationship to technology is an interesting subject you can dive deep into. One must also keep in mind modern 'win' conditions for guerilla fighters, many of which don't look much like win conditions in traditional warfare. But I don't think our present situation will come to this.)
- mindslight 8y ago
  "We" just developed the most capable soap box yet - "social media". It's worsening the problem. I expressly do not mean the computation box as a new version of soap box (ie general means for swaying opinion), but as a type of private meeting place where individuals may freely associate for their own mutually-beneficial purposes. Guerilla warfare can only exist when there's a local consensus against an (outside) imposing military. This possibility is obviated by democracy, which guarantees that the non-military majority opinion will carry without having to shoot. It's a last defense against outside conquerors, but not domestically-grown totalitarianism. Our modern conundrum is that opinion is being defined by mass media, and now interactive-personalized mass media (the Inception effect is powerful). The same process that has anointed this succession of hopechange-actor presidents also assures those ammo boxen are mutedly waiting for the bogeyman.