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can they succeed despite their essential dorkiness? Far less dorky than a Segway. I think they're playful enough to work from a marketing perspective. I was b

can they succeed despite their essential dorkiness? Far less dorky than a Segway. I think they're playful enough to work from a marketing perspective. I was bored with new technologies, bored with their repetitive promises, their glassy aesthetic, their oligarchic subsidization. This sentence is fantastic and absolutely on point! The street finds its own uses for technology. On that first ride, a few things became apparent. First, I was more likely to respect traffic laws on a scooter than on a bike, because I wasn’t as worried about conserving my momentum on a scooter. This is a profound observation. Robinson just earned his pay for the week! (A no prize for someone who understands that reference.) What if virtually all bikes had capacitors, regenerative braking, and electric assist? There would be no reason for the endless "momentum hacks" bicyclists are guilty of.

jds375 8y ago
Living in SF I think this is totally false. I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon (and it’s often someone riding extremely slow). Bikes literally don’t fit on most sidewalks and there are extremely clear bike lanes. Plus you can’t pick up much speed before reaching an obstacle. I consistently see people zooming down the sidewalks on scooters because: they fit, they accelerate quickly, and they are often too slow to be in the bike lane. Personally I think this was the massive failure by these scooter companies. No one is riding them in the streets. They are on the sidewalk going 10+mph. I really don’t think people would be quite as upset if they weren’t constantly dodging scooters going down the sidewalk.
- codezero 8y ago
  As a daily bike commuter – I see the scooters in the bike lane all the time. I also think they go pretty fast and at the very least are small and nimble enough that I never feel like they're really in my way. I much prefer them to the docked bikes. People on docked bikes don't ride like other bike commuters, they are a nuisance and feel like more of a danger to other cyclists and traffic in general. Anyways, I look forward to seeing how this plays out.
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    >>> People on docked bikes don't ride like other bike commuters, they are a nuisance and feel like more of a danger to other cyclists and traffic in general. A know annoyance to all car drivers: Tourists. Their RVs spoil every mountain highway. Their rental cars slow down every bridge. Their docker bikes slow down bike lanes. And their lackadaisical meandering on foot slows down airports. Anyone who is looking at the view should be legally obligated to get out of the way of anyone trying to get to work.
    - freehunter 8y ago
      Sorry I'm trying to enjoy my vacation in the city that you're the sole owner and arbiter of. Next time I spend thousands of dollars to visit, I'll make sure not to enjoy anything or look at anything in case it accidentally inconveniences you. I understand you're a very important person with very important things to do.
      - naravara 8y ago
        You can meander, gawk, and enjoy things all you want, but it's not necessary to stop in the middle of the sidewalk or weave around unpredictably to do any of that. It's not taking "ownership" of a city, most of what he mentioned is just about avoiding being in the way when occupying a shared space. It's basic manners.
      - InitialLastName 8y ago
        Point taken, but you should probably familiarize yourself a little bit with the road patterns of places you visit. For example, the green lanes painted on the road in Manhattan are neither "cab hailing lanes" nor the "special pedestrian lanes" that (usually grumpy) tourists seem to think they are. -anyone frustrated by people with luggage walking in the middle of the road.
    - codezero 8y ago
      My point of view certainly isn't that extreme. I prefer people on docked bikes over having more cars on the road. I just would also like to see them wearing helmets, being conscious of others on bikes and generally being better citizens. I realize this could apply to lots of interactions :)
- analogmemory 8y ago
  > I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon What? There is a huge population of cyclists out there. Do you live on top of a hill?
  - tlrobinson 8y ago
    I think they meant "sidewalk", given the rest of the context.
  - tracker1 8y ago
    Depends on where you are... here in Phoenix, for example, I think I may see a handful and only in the downtown area, or on the front of a bus.
    - weberc2 8y ago
      "out there [in SF]" not "out there [in the world]"
      - tracker1 8y ago
        I assumed "out there [wherever /you/ are]"
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Living in SF I think this is totally false. I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon In Houston, I'd see bike "momentum hacks" often in all the occasions I'd see a bike. You don't see them that often, but they are often alarming, sometimes catastrophic, and sometimes fatal. I recently saw SF helmet-cam footage of an intelligent, conscientious biking coworker, who decided to pass a van on the right, only to find that the van was turning right. While trying to make a left in busy traffic, I was ambushed by a bike-bro in North Beach. If I spotted him a fraction of a second later, he would have been catapulted by the instant torque of an electric car. "Momentum hacks" are not that frequent, but given the relative infrequency of cyclists as compared to cars, the frequency of severe flirting with catastrophe is quite alarming. They cause vehicle operators who are 100X more fragile to act as if they were nigh invulnerable.
  - Steltek 8y ago
    > I recently saw SF helmet-cam footage of an intelligent, conscientious biking coworker, who decided to pass a van on the right, only to find that the van was turning right. While trying to make a left in busy traffic, I was ambushed by a bike-bro in North Beach I can't speak to those locations but FYI, in Massachusetts, the driver would be eligible for a citation in those instances, even without a collision. Turning traffic always yields right of way to straight-through traffic. Speaking with cyclists who practice such "momentum hacks", I often get the response along the lines of "Even obeying the law, drivers nearly kill me every day so what good is the law?".
    - twoodfin 8y ago
      Do bikes in MA have a right to pass a left turning car in the far left lane? That would be surprising. For right turns it makes sense since the bike nominally has a travel lane that’s being crossed. (I’m interpreting GP’s comment as if both the car and bike were traveling in the same direction.)
      - Steltek 8y ago
        That seems like a extremely unlikely scenario to me but I suppose it's possible. I've seen bikes pass on the left but only to make a left turn in gridlocked traffic. But then again, crossing the double yellow to pass is a common practice for drivers as well.
- simonebrunozzi 8y ago
  You live under a rock, not in SF. I live in SF and I constantly see scooters riding both on streets and on sidewalks. "No one is riding them in the streets" is absolutely false.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    When I was there a few weeks back, it looked like about 50-50 streets/sidewalks to me.
  - jds375 8y ago
    Obviously not EVERYONE is. I think it’s pretty clear that I mean most people are. Do you take everything literally? I doubt that strategy works well in the workplace or life
    - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
      No one is riding them in the streets. They are on the sidewalk going 10+mph. Sorry to pile on, but that didn't sound to me like you're saying that some are riding in the street and some aren't.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- chrisdhoover 8y ago
  Nah, the scooters are fast enough for the bike lane. They are so new that we dont have a social compact to govern them. They are a great innovation and will help over all with life in the city. Over time the social contract will be eatablished and responsible folks, that is most folks, will observe the safe amd normative behavior scooter use needs.
- Bud 8y ago
  It's false that nobody is riding them in the streets; plainly false. There is constant scooter traffic on Market St. in the bike lanes and in car lanes.
- TulliusCicero 8y ago
  Too slow to be in the bike lane seems an odd complaint; in bike-heavy cities like Copenhagen or Amsterdam, the average bike speed is only like 10mph. 14-15 would put you among the faster cyclists in urban areas (granted, people there probably could go faster, but bike traffic/frequent stops means there not much point).
analogmemory 8y ago
I've ridden the electric scooters a few times and while I understand the joy the author found I disliked them compared to other options. I honestly think the electric bikes (Jump/GoBikes) that are coming out are better options. For one you can go faster and further for cheaper than the scooters. Also the safety issues, I felt much more unstable on the scooter than anything else. I almost ate it when i rolled over a small pothole.
- madengr 8y ago
  Pothole? I lip on a sidewalk slab is enough to dump a scooter.
jnwatson 8y ago
Those "momentum hacks" like the Idaho stop have been shown to improve cyclist safety. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop
- joshe 8y ago
  Yeah, it seems like all the little stuff, bikes, ebikes, and electric scooters should Idaho stop. The stuff that kills people should have to do the full stop.
  - monkeywork 8y ago
    Your living a pipe dream if you think that a bike, ebike, or electric scooter can't kill someone. 180lbs going 15-20MPH smashing into someone who is unaware, someone who is elderly or very young, etc etc. Rolling stops should be done much much slower than that I'm aware, however the problem is peoples perception of what they can get away with furthers then... currently the LAW is to STOP but instead people roll cause they feel they can get away with it, when the LAW is to ROLL they will start to blow through it (many already do anyway)...
    - Johnny555 8y ago
      They can, as can other pedestrians, and even a little chihuahua dog can trip someone and kill them... But bike-bike and bike-pedestrian deaths are so rare that they make front page news (and in SF, the Bucchere case from 15 years ago is always brought up when people want to point out how dangerous bikes are). Yet cars kill about 20 people a year in SF, and people just shrug and ignore it.
    - ihattendorf 8y ago
      > currently the LAW is to STOP but instead people roll cause they feel they can get away with it, when the LAW is to ROLL they will start to blow through it (many already do anyway)... Slippery slope...
      - 8y ago
monkeywork 8y ago
Not addressing scooters because I haven't encountered many of them, I will say though that I have a burning hatred for e-bikes (specifically the ones they try to come off with the Vespa look).... at least the way they are handled in my area (Ontario, Canada). They require no license to ride, they are easily modifiable to go above the recommended speed, and seem to attract owners who have no safety concerns in their head at all (not wearing proper gear, having no clue how to operate in traffic, etc)... most often they become the vehicle of choice for people who have had their licenses taken away due to DUI charges. While every group (drivers, cyclists, etc) have things people can point to and complain about I've never seen a group so disrespectful of others on the road, so clueless to their surroundings, and have as little grasp of basic safety as the majority of e-bike users on the road. My opinion is if it is powered by anything other than your own legs it should be classified the same as a moped and require insurance, some sort of training and licensing to be allowed on the road.
- sunstone 8y ago
  As a driver I much prefer ebikes of any style to regular bicyclists. Even at 20mph they are fast enough that I don't feel agitated that I'm behind a lethargic turtle in my lane. City traffic often goes at about 20mph between lights in any case. As a former rider of a "Vespa ebike" I find that it also seem much safer as a rider than a regular bicycle because I could most keep up with traffic and I could easily monitor traffic around me because I wasn't pedaling and switching gears and what have you. Personally I feel the ebike, Vespa like or otherwise, is the future of city transportation. It's energy efficient, sweat free and all that most single occupancy vehicle drivers need to go about their daily tasks. If most people started riding them they would instantly become much safer as well.
johnchristopher 8y ago
> The street finds its own uses for technology. Nice :). "[..] the street finds its own uses for things." -- Gibson
d1zzy 8y ago
I think a lot of the reason why I (can't speak for others) went from a super strict traffic law observer to "slow and roll through stop signs if nobody is there" on a bike isn't just the momentum conservation, which I agree is one of the big factors, but think about this: do you really think that drivers would make a full stop, as much as they do now, if suddenly they wouldn't have access to freeways and other high speed roads with no/synchronized/very few intersections and instead would be forced to take residential roads full of stops? This factor is easy to miss for most drivers, but they can do this experiment on themselves, change their commute route to only include very low traffic (ie "safe") roads, and take that route every day, every week for a few months (it was a slow "grinding" process). Let's see then if they still continue to make a full stop as before for every one of those 20 new full STOP intersections...
- vvanders 8y ago
  Yes. Also, if you want to share the road that goes both ways. If I have to obey the laws that keep everyone safe so should you.
  - d1zzy 8y ago
    Easy to say. I want to see how many of the drivers stating such things would still do a full stop at an empty intersection after having biked through it hundreds of times before and it's just one of the many such stops they have on their commute route every day. Basically I want to see statistics/studies. We may conclude then that it's not the fault of the individual if the large majority of us end up bending the rules given the same circumstances but it may be the fault of the circumstances (which are in the control of cities/etc who control public infrastructure).
    - vvanders 8y ago
      Cool, go off and grab that data. In the meantime though, obey the laws of the road or stay off it.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      I want to see how many of the drivers stating such things would still do a full stop at an empty intersection after having biked through it hundreds of times before and it's just one of the many such stops they have on their commute route every day. Basically I want to see statistics/studies. We may conclude then that it's not the fault of the individual if the large majority of us end up bending the rules So, you're entitled to bend the rules, so long as enough other people are with you? Why don't you extrapolate the Kantian Imperative on that one? This is precisely why we can't have nice things. I guess we should just give up on trash cans, and everyone should just throw everything in the street.

jds375 8y ago

Living in SF I think this is totally false. I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon (and it’s often someone riding extremely slow). Bikes literally don’t fit on most sidewalks and there are extremely clear bike lanes. Plus you can’t pick up much speed before reaching an obstacle. I consistently see people zooming down the sidewalks on scooters because: they fit, they accelerate quickly, and they are often too slow to be in the bike lane. Personally I think this was the massive failure by these scooter companies. No one is riding them in the streets. They are on the sidewalk going 10+mph. I really don’t think people would be quite as upset if they weren’t constantly dodging scooters going down the sidewalk.

codezero 8y ago
As a daily bike commuter – I see the scooters in the bike lane all the time. I also think they go pretty fast and at the very least are small and nimble enough that I never feel like they're really in my way. I much prefer them to the docked bikes. People on docked bikes don't ride like other bike commuters, they are a nuisance and feel like more of a danger to other cyclists and traffic in general. Anyways, I look forward to seeing how this plays out.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  >>> People on docked bikes don't ride like other bike commuters, they are a nuisance and feel like more of a danger to other cyclists and traffic in general. A know annoyance to all car drivers: Tourists. Their RVs spoil every mountain highway. Their rental cars slow down every bridge. Their docker bikes slow down bike lanes. And their lackadaisical meandering on foot slows down airports. Anyone who is looking at the view should be legally obligated to get out of the way of anyone trying to get to work.
  - freehunter 8y ago
    Sorry I'm trying to enjoy my vacation in the city that you're the sole owner and arbiter of. Next time I spend thousands of dollars to visit, I'll make sure not to enjoy anything or look at anything in case it accidentally inconveniences you. I understand you're a very important person with very important things to do.
    - naravara 8y ago
      You can meander, gawk, and enjoy things all you want, but it's not necessary to stop in the middle of the sidewalk or weave around unpredictably to do any of that. It's not taking "ownership" of a city, most of what he mentioned is just about avoiding being in the way when occupying a shared space. It's basic manners.
    - InitialLastName 8y ago
      Point taken, but you should probably familiarize yourself a little bit with the road patterns of places you visit. For example, the green lanes painted on the road in Manhattan are neither "cab hailing lanes" nor the "special pedestrian lanes" that (usually grumpy) tourists seem to think they are. -anyone frustrated by people with luggage walking in the middle of the road.
  - codezero 8y ago
    My point of view certainly isn't that extreme. I prefer people on docked bikes over having more cars on the road. I just would also like to see them wearing helmets, being conscious of others on bikes and generally being better citizens. I realize this could apply to lots of interactions :)
analogmemory 8y ago
> I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon What? There is a huge population of cyclists out there. Do you live on top of a hill?
- tlrobinson 8y ago
  I think they meant "sidewalk", given the rest of the context.
- tracker1 8y ago
  Depends on where you are... here in Phoenix, for example, I think I may see a handful and only in the downtown area, or on the front of a bus.
  - weberc2 8y ago
    "out there [in SF]" not "out there [in the world]"
    - tracker1 8y ago
      I assumed "out there [wherever /you/ are]"
stcredzero 8y ago
Living in SF I think this is totally false. I see a bike on the street once in a blue moon In Houston, I'd see bike "momentum hacks" often in all the occasions I'd see a bike. You don't see them that often, but they are often alarming, sometimes catastrophic, and sometimes fatal. I recently saw SF helmet-cam footage of an intelligent, conscientious biking coworker, who decided to pass a van on the right, only to find that the van was turning right. While trying to make a left in busy traffic, I was ambushed by a bike-bro in North Beach. If I spotted him a fraction of a second later, he would have been catapulted by the instant torque of an electric car. "Momentum hacks" are not that frequent, but given the relative infrequency of cyclists as compared to cars, the frequency of severe flirting with catastrophe is quite alarming. They cause vehicle operators who are 100X more fragile to act as if they were nigh invulnerable.
- Steltek 8y ago
  > I recently saw SF helmet-cam footage of an intelligent, conscientious biking coworker, who decided to pass a van on the right, only to find that the van was turning right. While trying to make a left in busy traffic, I was ambushed by a bike-bro in North Beach I can't speak to those locations but FYI, in Massachusetts, the driver would be eligible for a citation in those instances, even without a collision. Turning traffic always yields right of way to straight-through traffic. Speaking with cyclists who practice such "momentum hacks", I often get the response along the lines of "Even obeying the law, drivers nearly kill me every day so what good is the law?".
  - twoodfin 8y ago
    Do bikes in MA have a right to pass a left turning car in the far left lane? That would be surprising. For right turns it makes sense since the bike nominally has a travel lane that’s being crossed. (I’m interpreting GP’s comment as if both the car and bike were traveling in the same direction.)
    - Steltek 8y ago
      That seems like a extremely unlikely scenario to me but I suppose it's possible. I've seen bikes pass on the left but only to make a left turn in gridlocked traffic. But then again, crossing the double yellow to pass is a common practice for drivers as well.
simonebrunozzi 8y ago
You live under a rock, not in SF. I live in SF and I constantly see scooters riding both on streets and on sidewalks. "No one is riding them in the streets" is absolutely false.
- ghaff 8y ago
  When I was there a few weeks back, it looked like about 50-50 streets/sidewalks to me.
- jds375 8y ago
  Obviously not EVERYONE is. I think it’s pretty clear that I mean most people are. Do you take everything literally? I doubt that strategy works well in the workplace or life
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    No one is riding them in the streets. They are on the sidewalk going 10+mph. Sorry to pile on, but that didn't sound to me like you're saying that some are riding in the street and some aren't.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
chrisdhoover 8y ago
Nah, the scooters are fast enough for the bike lane. They are so new that we dont have a social compact to govern them. They are a great innovation and will help over all with life in the city. Over time the social contract will be eatablished and responsible folks, that is most folks, will observe the safe amd normative behavior scooter use needs.
Bud 8y ago
It's false that nobody is riding them in the streets; plainly false. There is constant scooter traffic on Market St. in the bike lanes and in car lanes.
TulliusCicero 8y ago
Too slow to be in the bike lane seems an odd complaint; in bike-heavy cities like Copenhagen or Amsterdam, the average bike speed is only like 10mph. 14-15 would put you among the faster cyclists in urban areas (granted, people there probably could go faster, but bike traffic/frequent stops means there not much point).

analogmemory 8y ago

I've ridden the electric scooters a few times and while I understand the joy the author found I disliked them compared to other options. I honestly think the electric bikes (Jump/GoBikes) that are coming out are better options. For one you can go faster and further for cheaper than the scooters. Also the safety issues, I felt much more unstable on the scooter than anything else. I almost ate it when i rolled over a small pothole.

madengr 8y ago
Pothole? I lip on a sidewalk slab is enough to dump a scooter.

jnwatson 8y ago

Those "momentum hacks" like the Idaho stop have been shown to improve cyclist safety. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop

joshe 8y ago
Yeah, it seems like all the little stuff, bikes, ebikes, and electric scooters should Idaho stop. The stuff that kills people should have to do the full stop.
- monkeywork 8y ago
  Your living a pipe dream if you think that a bike, ebike, or electric scooter can't kill someone. 180lbs going 15-20MPH smashing into someone who is unaware, someone who is elderly or very young, etc etc. Rolling stops should be done much much slower than that I'm aware, however the problem is peoples perception of what they can get away with furthers then... currently the LAW is to STOP but instead people roll cause they feel they can get away with it, when the LAW is to ROLL they will start to blow through it (many already do anyway)...
  - Johnny555 8y ago
    They can, as can other pedestrians, and even a little chihuahua dog can trip someone and kill them... But bike-bike and bike-pedestrian deaths are so rare that they make front page news (and in SF, the Bucchere case from 15 years ago is always brought up when people want to point out how dangerous bikes are). Yet cars kill about 20 people a year in SF, and people just shrug and ignore it.
  - ihattendorf 8y ago
    > currently the LAW is to STOP but instead people roll cause they feel they can get away with it, when the LAW is to ROLL they will start to blow through it (many already do anyway)... Slippery slope...
    - 8y ago

monkeywork 8y ago

Not addressing scooters because I haven't encountered many of them, I will say though that I have a burning hatred for e-bikes (specifically the ones they try to come off with the Vespa look).... at least the way they are handled in my area (Ontario, Canada). They require no license to ride, they are easily modifiable to go above the recommended speed, and seem to attract owners who have no safety concerns in their head at all (not wearing proper gear, having no clue how to operate in traffic, etc)... most often they become the vehicle of choice for people who have had their licenses taken away due to DUI charges. While every group (drivers, cyclists, etc) have things people can point to and complain about I've never seen a group so disrespectful of others on the road, so clueless to their surroundings, and have as little grasp of basic safety as the majority of e-bike users on the road. My opinion is if it is powered by anything other than your own legs it should be classified the same as a moped and require insurance, some sort of training and licensing to be allowed on the road.

sunstone 8y ago
As a driver I much prefer ebikes of any style to regular bicyclists. Even at 20mph they are fast enough that I don't feel agitated that I'm behind a lethargic turtle in my lane. City traffic often goes at about 20mph between lights in any case. As a former rider of a "Vespa ebike" I find that it also seem much safer as a rider than a regular bicycle because I could most keep up with traffic and I could easily monitor traffic around me because I wasn't pedaling and switching gears and what have you. Personally I feel the ebike, Vespa like or otherwise, is the future of city transportation. It's energy efficient, sweat free and all that most single occupancy vehicle drivers need to go about their daily tasks. If most people started riding them they would instantly become much safer as well.

johnchristopher 8y ago

> The street finds its own uses for technology. Nice :). "[..] the street finds its own uses for things." -- Gibson

d1zzy 8y ago

I think a lot of the reason why I (can't speak for others) went from a super strict traffic law observer to "slow and roll through stop signs if nobody is there" on a bike isn't just the momentum conservation, which I agree is one of the big factors, but think about this: do you really think that drivers would make a full stop, as much as they do now, if suddenly they wouldn't have access to freeways and other high speed roads with no/synchronized/very few intersections and instead would be forced to take residential roads full of stops? This factor is easy to miss for most drivers, but they can do this experiment on themselves, change their commute route to only include very low traffic (ie "safe") roads, and take that route every day, every week for a few months (it was a slow "grinding" process). Let's see then if they still continue to make a full stop as before for every one of those 20 new full STOP intersections...

vvanders 8y ago
Yes. Also, if you want to share the road that goes both ways. If I have to obey the laws that keep everyone safe so should you.
- d1zzy 8y ago
  Easy to say. I want to see how many of the drivers stating such things would still do a full stop at an empty intersection after having biked through it hundreds of times before and it's just one of the many such stops they have on their commute route every day. Basically I want to see statistics/studies. We may conclude then that it's not the fault of the individual if the large majority of us end up bending the rules given the same circumstances but it may be the fault of the circumstances (which are in the control of cities/etc who control public infrastructure).
  - vvanders 8y ago
    Cool, go off and grab that data. In the meantime though, obey the laws of the road or stay off it.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    I want to see how many of the drivers stating such things would still do a full stop at an empty intersection after having biked through it hundreds of times before and it's just one of the many such stops they have on their commute route every day. Basically I want to see statistics/studies. We may conclude then that it's not the fault of the individual if the large majority of us end up bending the rules So, you're entitled to bend the rules, so long as enough other people are with you? Why don't you extrapolate the Kantian Imperative on that one? This is precisely why we can't have nice things. I guess we should just give up on trash cans, and everyone should just throw everything in the street.