5 ms·

This is the sort of development that makes me want a Pixel 2. I've been leaning toward an iPhone, for the first time, on security grounds, so this is a welcome

by ISL 8y ago

This is the sort of development that makes me want a Pixel 2. I've been leaning toward an iPhone, for the first time, on security grounds, so this is a welcome piece of news. Thanks, Google. Please keep it up.

saagarjha 8y ago
I'm pretty sure everything mentioned here has been a feature on iPhones for quite some time.
- refulgentis 8y ago
  No
  - tptacek 8y ago
    I'm interested in which details you can present.
    - uncleamerica 8y ago
      No
    - joshuamorton 8y ago
      If I understand correctly, this feature want on phones as recently as 2016 (San Bernardino). It would have made it impossible for Apple to comply. I haven't seen anything since that says that this has changed, but I admit I don't pay close attention.
    - refulgentis 8y ago
      I'm interested in which details OP can present - I'm somewhat surprised to be put in a position where I have to do a breakdown of Apple's security vs. Google's to address a claim that doesn't have anything backing it, and is specifically stated with uncertainty ("I'm pretty sure...") I'm only _somewhat_ surprised because people have a high-level idea that Apple is the one manufacturer concerned with security, and I'm somewhat _surprised_ because tptacek is involved, and he's aware that it's highly unusual to request no proof from the original claim while asking people addressing it to provide proof. This contradiction leads me to believe tptacek has info on this that could settle things, leading me to resent facing two generations of posts that don't attempt to flesh out a claim while I'm downvoted for not fleshing out a claim, and I'm requested to make a claim. I'll keep eating downvotes instead, this is objectively unreasonable. EDIT: ...and there's already a sibling post that addresses this. Not a great look folks. :/
- ucaetano 8y ago
  No. If Apple develops a new, signed, version of the security module, it can bypass the password by updating the firmware in the security module without the user's password. At least that was the case during the San Bernardino dispute. Apple never claimed it couldn't do, only that it refused to do for the FBI. In this case (Pixel 2), Google claims that it is impossible to do that.
  - saurik 8y ago
    I was under the (potentially incorrect) impression that this was fixed in later iPhone revisions (which may have even already existed by the time this happened). Essentially: pointing out that the iPhone 5c--a five year old device--had this issue is not particularly strong evidence that this hasn't been "a feature on iPhones for quite some time".
    - ucaetano 8y ago
      > is not particularly strong evidence that this hasn't been "a feature on iPhones for quite some time" Sure, but there's no evidence whatsoever that this has been "a feature on iPhones for quite some time".
  - jd007 8y ago
    The San Bernardino case involved an older device though, the 5C (which came out in 2013), which did not have the dedicated security module (Secure Enclave) at all. As far as I know, there is no confirmation on whether Apple (or anyone) could flash new firmware to the Secure Enclave, without the user passcode, without wiping data on the phone. This info is strangely missing from the official iOS Security Guide document. If anyone has more info on this please share. There are some (unsubstantiated IMO) claims by people online (e.g. https://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ https://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-wit...), and a series of Tweets with an ex-Apple security engineer (https://twitter.com/JohnHedge/status/699882614212075520 https://twitter.com/JohnHedge/status/699882614212075520), but nothing official. SEP firmware definitely can be upgraded without a key wipe (as confirmed by the Tweets as well as regular usage of iOS), but it's unsure if can be done without the user passcode. iOS does prompt the user for passcode when performing OS updates (which is also the delivery mechanism for Secure Enclave firmware upgrades). I don't know whether this is a UX-level security check only or actually hardware level required step.
kerng 8y ago
It shows that Google is behind... I think most systems (iPhone, even Windows with TPM and Bitlocker) had this stuff for many years.
cryptonector 8y ago
What about app security? I gave up on Android years ago. Is it still the case that apps expect to be given most/all permissions in order to function? If so then no thanks.
- et1337 8y ago
  They overhauled permissions so that the app will ask you for permission right when the app needs it, rather than 50 permissions all up front. So you try to upload a photo and Android says "allow access to photos?" It was a huge and much-needed upgrade.
  - nitrogen 8y ago
    Unfortunately some critical permissions are lumped into "Other" and can't be disabled, including full network access (portscan and privacy risk) and running at phone startup (I uninstalled Pandora when I started getting "Pandora has stopped" alerts when Spotify was the only app open).
    - cryptonector 8y ago
      Until this story gets as good as iOS', you can count me out of the Android universe.

by ISL 8y ago

saagarjha 8y ago

I'm pretty sure everything mentioned here has been a feature on iPhones for quite some time.

refulgentis 8y ago
No
- tptacek 8y ago
  I'm interested in which details you can present.
  - uncleamerica 8y ago
    No
  - joshuamorton 8y ago
    If I understand correctly, this feature want on phones as recently as 2016 (San Bernardino). It would have made it impossible for Apple to comply. I haven't seen anything since that says that this has changed, but I admit I don't pay close attention.
  - refulgentis 8y ago
    I'm interested in which details OP can present - I'm somewhat surprised to be put in a position where I have to do a breakdown of Apple's security vs. Google's to address a claim that doesn't have anything backing it, and is specifically stated with uncertainty ("I'm pretty sure...") I'm only _somewhat_ surprised because people have a high-level idea that Apple is the one manufacturer concerned with security, and I'm somewhat _surprised_ because tptacek is involved, and he's aware that it's highly unusual to request no proof from the original claim while asking people addressing it to provide proof. This contradiction leads me to believe tptacek has info on this that could settle things, leading me to resent facing two generations of posts that don't attempt to flesh out a claim while I'm downvoted for not fleshing out a claim, and I'm requested to make a claim. I'll keep eating downvotes instead, this is objectively unreasonable. EDIT: ...and there's already a sibling post that addresses this. Not a great look folks. :/
ucaetano 8y ago
No. If Apple develops a new, signed, version of the security module, it can bypass the password by updating the firmware in the security module without the user's password. At least that was the case during the San Bernardino dispute. Apple never claimed it couldn't do, only that it refused to do for the FBI. In this case (Pixel 2), Google claims that it is impossible to do that.
- saurik 8y ago
  I was under the (potentially incorrect) impression that this was fixed in later iPhone revisions (which may have even already existed by the time this happened). Essentially: pointing out that the iPhone 5c--a five year old device--had this issue is not particularly strong evidence that this hasn't been "a feature on iPhones for quite some time".
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    > is not particularly strong evidence that this hasn't been "a feature on iPhones for quite some time" Sure, but there's no evidence whatsoever that this has been "a feature on iPhones for quite some time".
- jd007 8y ago
  The San Bernardino case involved an older device though, the 5C (which came out in 2013), which did not have the dedicated security module (Secure Enclave) at all. As far as I know, there is no confirmation on whether Apple (or anyone) could flash new firmware to the Secure Enclave, without the user passcode, without wiping data on the phone. This info is strangely missing from the official iOS Security Guide document. If anyone has more info on this please share. There are some (unsubstantiated IMO) claims by people online (e.g. https://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-with-the-fbi-court-order/ https://blog.trailofbits.com/2016/02/17/apple-can-comply-wit...), and a series of Tweets with an ex-Apple security engineer (https://twitter.com/JohnHedge/status/699882614212075520 https://twitter.com/JohnHedge/status/699882614212075520), but nothing official. SEP firmware definitely can be upgraded without a key wipe (as confirmed by the Tweets as well as regular usage of iOS), but it's unsure if can be done without the user passcode. iOS does prompt the user for passcode when performing OS updates (which is also the delivery mechanism for Secure Enclave firmware upgrades). I don't know whether this is a UX-level security check only or actually hardware level required step.

kerng 8y ago

It shows that Google is behind... I think most systems (iPhone, even Windows with TPM and Bitlocker) had this stuff for many years.

cryptonector 8y ago

What about app security? I gave up on Android years ago. Is it still the case that apps expect to be given most/all permissions in order to function? If so then no thanks.

et1337 8y ago
They overhauled permissions so that the app will ask you for permission right when the app needs it, rather than 50 permissions all up front. So you try to upload a photo and Android says "allow access to photos?" It was a huge and much-needed upgrade.
- nitrogen 8y ago
  Unfortunately some critical permissions are lumped into "Other" and can't be disabled, including full network access (portscan and privacy risk) and running at phone startup (I uninstalled Pandora when I started getting "Pandora has stopped" alerts when Spotify was the only app open).
  - cryptonector 8y ago
    Until this story gets as good as iOS', you can count me out of the Android universe.