6 ms·

Wait ~6 months, and you will encounter a case where simple package update will cost you more than that 45 minutes ;)

by tumdum_ 8y ago

taneq 8y ago
Maybe, but it's never going to force you to reboot to install some shovelware that you don't want and can't opt out of.
- John_KZ 8y ago
  There's a pretty spectacular performance boost too. Microsoft stealing my electricity and computing power to run bloatware and analytics on data they steal from me is just too much. In the past I thought the idea of "really controlling what's going on with your computer" was just purist mambo jumbo, but windows 10 came to prove me wrong.
- tumdum_ 8y ago
  Migration of many distros to systemd forced many people to do exactly that ;)
  - Accacin 8y ago
    Did it? I must have missed that.
    - dpwm 8y ago
      There was a little bit of pain but it was nowhere near as bad as some make out. I migrated all my arch boxes at the time just fine and the main work was writing unit files -- which compared to writing init scripts was mainly trivial. Is systemd the best init system? No. But to some of us it was an improvement over what came before it and it really hasn't given us the trouble that others claim it has given them. I remember a colleague who ran Linux From Scratch on his laptop who was abhorred by the changes. We spent an afternoon trying to remove the stuff from an Ubuntu VM image he didn't consider necessary and a lot of it was really alien to him. As an fvwm user he really couldn't understand why almost everything needed dbus and pulseaudio. I couldn't understand a lot of the strange packaging dependencies either. And yet these are things that to me have improved real pain-points in linux distros.
  - gkya 8y ago
    Yeah, but at least you can remove it if you want.
aerique 8y ago
You are correct, but Windows and OS X cost me more time in the end because I'm unfamiliar with them.
lmm 8y ago
Yep. If you want the "Linux experience" these days you have to move to BSD.
- gkya 8y ago
  I LOVE *BSDs, but this statement is just false. The linux sphere is full of very nice experiences. Projects like Void and Alpine are out there, and then there are the gems like NixOS and GuixSD.
csdreamer7 8y ago
Would you elaborate? I have never had that problem with Ubuntu based distros.
- tumdum_ 8y ago
  I wish I had that experience. For me update to ubuntu 17.10 broke many things - the most annoying was migration to wayland which brought with it crashes when using multiple monitors via docking station. Arch seems to have the same problems, and in addition few days ago I discovered that my wifi stopped working (that laptop was docked and was using wired connection for last few weeks but had wifi working before). The worst part is those are the machines I use for work ;(
  - asfdsfggtfd 8y ago
    > For me update to ubuntu 17.10 broke many things > The worst part is those are the machines I use for work ;( Why are you using experimental OSs on work machines? The LTS versions exist for a reason.
  - csdreamer7 8y ago
    Okay. I assumed you were talking about a simple update itself. Not a system upgrade to 17.10. I know one guy who bragged that he never restarted an Ubuntu laptop in years, just letting it update, suspend and resume, never restarting it. I have had package upgrade issues with Debian Testing and Manjaro (Arch), but never Ubuntu. Did you disable Wayland? You can easily select X.org on the log in. Or just use 18.04 which went back to X by default. Also, I think you are being unfair, upgrades on Windows are bad too. You are always recommended to a do a fresh install. You need to work on describing your actual issues instead of being so vague if you actually want help with things. Like with this: > Arch seems to have the same problems, and in addition few days ago I discovered that my wifi stopped working (that laptop was docked and was using wired connection for last few weeks but had wifi working before). I do not know if your wifi gave out on 17.10 or Arch. Arch is it's own bag of worms-for all I know you are running a prerelease kernel on that new Intel NUC that runs poorly on Windows right now due to bad drivers. Arch breaks a lot on it's own. You shouldn't be using it if you don't intend to fix it. If you want a more user friendly with Arch, try Manjaro.
sandebert 8y ago
Really? I've used Linux for ten years or so have never had a problem like this. When I started using it I was really, really worried because I suspected this be standard behaviour really. ”Surely this 'package management' thing will break things all the time?”. But nope, runs like clockwork. (I've always used Debian based distros, if that's a factor.)
- pjmlp 8y ago
  On Ubuntu it occurs a few times that I needed to clean up the dpkg locks.
imtringued 8y ago
Windows significant issues with the update process. Every now and then microsoft releases their broken updates that cause your PC to enter a bootloop and then you have to reinstall windows. So far this has happened on almost every version of windows that I've used.
laumars 8y ago
You will run into problems like that on any platform. Want to do a "quick" Windows Update? OK, let's just schedule in 2 hours of downtime. What about OS X packages that aren't in the app store - sure lots of solutions exist but none are without their occasional problems. While package management is a solved problem (well, on all platforms outside of Windows that is), that doesn't mean that occasional issues will not arise. Though for what it's worth: I run Arch which is about as hands on as it gets without compiling your own packages and it's been 10 years since the last time a package update cost me 45 minutes or longer of my time.
- gkya 8y ago
  Add to that that you can work while the update is being downloaded and applied; and in the very few occasions where reboot is absolutely inevitable (I have never had such a situation since many years; even the new kernel can wait until I'm done with my things and ready to reboot to bring it online), it's just a reboot, nothing more. With Windows 10, it just blocks you with a screen that has a message telling "I'm doing my things now" and a progress report. Your work is inevitably interrupted. For example, I sometimes play some games on my brother's Win 10 PC (I don't use Windows on my laptop, and don't want to bother with setting up Wine and the games on it). A couple days ago it wanted to update, and I told it to postpone. Then I left for 15 minutes and came back, there was an update going on. It blocked us out of the computer for the entire afternoon and most of the evening doing black magic behind a soft blue screen.
  - jamesgeck0 8y ago
    While I don't love Window Update's behavior, that particular major update was released about a month ago. Your brother has been postponing it for weeks.
belorn 8y ago
I can say for certain that I have never had a package update interrupting me in the middle of an extremely important moment, and for a very simply reason. I do not update my packages during extremely important moments. I have never had the itch in the middle of a presentation to say "Wait everyone, a update came so lets have you all sit and wait and look while the machine do a 45 minutes update".
- jake_the_third 8y ago
  I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but forced updates have already come to linux: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for-snap-from-store/707 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for... Even applications you'd expect to be native (apt packages) like `gnome-system-monitor` are included as snaps by default in the desktop version of ubuntu 18.04. All it takes is a someone with sufficient authority to make disabling snaps very difficult.[1] Unfortunately, there are plenty of lunatics on both sides of the fence who think they should have the final say in what you can do with your computer and when you can do it. [1] E.g gnome developers decided to change the default behavior of the power button, then decided that users shouldn't be allowed to change this behavior: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=755953 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=755953
  - Nadya 8y ago
    Has come to Ubuntu flavors of Linux* and it seems, especially, just GNOME? I don't have this problem with Arch and pacman -Syu at my leisure. I refuse to use autoupdating software out of principle and am saddened so many people choose convenience over security.
    - gkya 8y ago
      Not only, but Debian wouldn't do this ever too. It's just as easy to run a Debian desktop spin, and it does not have any of the scandals or idiotic decisions Ubuntu has. This is what's nice with the distro ecosystem. Someone messes their thing up and gives you the middle finger? Say bye and switch to a saner thing. Your apps will work on almost all of the Linux distros (GNU/ or not) and *BSD w/o any effort, and getting them to work otherwise is not only possible, but usually easy.

Wait ~6 months, and you will encounter a case where simple package update will cost you more than that 45 minutes ;)

taneq 8y ago

Maybe, but it's never going to force you to reboot to install some shovelware that you don't want and can't opt out of.

John_KZ 8y ago
There's a pretty spectacular performance boost too. Microsoft stealing my electricity and computing power to run bloatware and analytics on data they steal from me is just too much. In the past I thought the idea of "really controlling what's going on with your computer" was just purist mambo jumbo, but windows 10 came to prove me wrong.
tumdum_ 8y ago
Migration of many distros to systemd forced many people to do exactly that ;)
- Accacin 8y ago
  Did it? I must have missed that.
  - dpwm 8y ago
    There was a little bit of pain but it was nowhere near as bad as some make out. I migrated all my arch boxes at the time just fine and the main work was writing unit files -- which compared to writing init scripts was mainly trivial. Is systemd the best init system? No. But to some of us it was an improvement over what came before it and it really hasn't given us the trouble that others claim it has given them. I remember a colleague who ran Linux From Scratch on his laptop who was abhorred by the changes. We spent an afternoon trying to remove the stuff from an Ubuntu VM image he didn't consider necessary and a lot of it was really alien to him. As an fvwm user he really couldn't understand why almost everything needed dbus and pulseaudio. I couldn't understand a lot of the strange packaging dependencies either. And yet these are things that to me have improved real pain-points in linux distros.
- gkya 8y ago
  Yeah, but at least you can remove it if you want.

aerique 8y ago

You are correct, but Windows and OS X cost me more time in the end because I'm unfamiliar with them.

lmm 8y ago

Yep. If you want the "Linux experience" these days you have to move to BSD.

gkya 8y ago
I LOVE *BSDs, but this statement is just false. The linux sphere is full of very nice experiences. Projects like Void and Alpine are out there, and then there are the gems like NixOS and GuixSD.

csdreamer7 8y ago

Would you elaborate? I have never had that problem with Ubuntu based distros.

tumdum_ 8y ago
I wish I had that experience. For me update to ubuntu 17.10 broke many things - the most annoying was migration to wayland which brought with it crashes when using multiple monitors via docking station. Arch seems to have the same problems, and in addition few days ago I discovered that my wifi stopped working (that laptop was docked and was using wired connection for last few weeks but had wifi working before). The worst part is those are the machines I use for work ;(
- asfdsfggtfd 8y ago
  > For me update to ubuntu 17.10 broke many things > The worst part is those are the machines I use for work ;( Why are you using experimental OSs on work machines? The LTS versions exist for a reason.
- csdreamer7 8y ago
  Okay. I assumed you were talking about a simple update itself. Not a system upgrade to 17.10. I know one guy who bragged that he never restarted an Ubuntu laptop in years, just letting it update, suspend and resume, never restarting it. I have had package upgrade issues with Debian Testing and Manjaro (Arch), but never Ubuntu. Did you disable Wayland? You can easily select X.org on the log in. Or just use 18.04 which went back to X by default. Also, I think you are being unfair, upgrades on Windows are bad too. You are always recommended to a do a fresh install. You need to work on describing your actual issues instead of being so vague if you actually want help with things. Like with this: > Arch seems to have the same problems, and in addition few days ago I discovered that my wifi stopped working (that laptop was docked and was using wired connection for last few weeks but had wifi working before). I do not know if your wifi gave out on 17.10 or Arch. Arch is it's own bag of worms-for all I know you are running a prerelease kernel on that new Intel NUC that runs poorly on Windows right now due to bad drivers. Arch breaks a lot on it's own. You shouldn't be using it if you don't intend to fix it. If you want a more user friendly with Arch, try Manjaro.

sandebert 8y ago

Really? I've used Linux for ten years or so have never had a problem like this. When I started using it I was really, really worried because I suspected this be standard behaviour really. ”Surely this 'package management' thing will break things all the time?”. But nope, runs like clockwork. (I've always used Debian based distros, if that's a factor.)

pjmlp 8y ago
On Ubuntu it occurs a few times that I needed to clean up the dpkg locks.

imtringued 8y ago

Windows significant issues with the update process. Every now and then microsoft releases their broken updates that cause your PC to enter a bootloop and then you have to reinstall windows. So far this has happened on almost every version of windows that I've used.

laumars 8y ago

You will run into problems like that on any platform. Want to do a "quick" Windows Update? OK, let's just schedule in 2 hours of downtime. What about OS X packages that aren't in the app store - sure lots of solutions exist but none are without their occasional problems. While package management is a solved problem (well, on all platforms outside of Windows that is), that doesn't mean that occasional issues will not arise. Though for what it's worth: I run Arch which is about as hands on as it gets without compiling your own packages and it's been 10 years since the last time a package update cost me 45 minutes or longer of my time.

gkya 8y ago
Add to that that you can work while the update is being downloaded and applied; and in the very few occasions where reboot is absolutely inevitable (I have never had such a situation since many years; even the new kernel can wait until I'm done with my things and ready to reboot to bring it online), it's just a reboot, nothing more. With Windows 10, it just blocks you with a screen that has a message telling "I'm doing my things now" and a progress report. Your work is inevitably interrupted. For example, I sometimes play some games on my brother's Win 10 PC (I don't use Windows on my laptop, and don't want to bother with setting up Wine and the games on it). A couple days ago it wanted to update, and I told it to postpone. Then I left for 15 minutes and came back, there was an update going on. It blocked us out of the computer for the entire afternoon and most of the evening doing black magic behind a soft blue screen.
- jamesgeck0 8y ago
  While I don't love Window Update's behavior, that particular major update was released about a month ago. Your brother has been postponing it for weeks.

belorn 8y ago

I can say for certain that I have never had a package update interrupting me in the middle of an extremely important moment, and for a very simply reason. I do not update my packages during extremely important moments. I have never had the itch in the middle of a presentation to say "Wait everyone, a update came so lets have you all sit and wait and look while the machine do a 45 minutes update".

jake_the_third 8y ago
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but forced updates have already come to linux: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for-snap-from-store/707 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for... Even applications you'd expect to be native (apt packages) like `gnome-system-monitor` are included as snaps by default in the desktop version of ubuntu 18.04. All it takes is a someone with sufficient authority to make disabling snaps very difficult.[1] Unfortunately, there are plenty of lunatics on both sides of the fence who think they should have the final say in what you can do with your computer and when you can do it. [1] E.g gnome developers decided to change the default behavior of the power button, then decided that users shouldn't be allowed to change this behavior: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=755953 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=755953
- Nadya 8y ago
  Has come to Ubuntu flavors of Linux* and it seems, especially, just GNOME? I don't have this problem with Arch and pacman -Syu at my leisure. I refuse to use autoupdating software out of principle and am saddened so many people choose convenience over security.
  - gkya 8y ago
    Not only, but Debian wouldn't do this ever too. It's just as easy to run a Debian desktop spin, and it does not have any of the scandals or idiotic decisions Ubuntu has. This is what's nice with the distro ecosystem. Someone messes their thing up and gives you the middle finger? Say bye and switch to a saner thing. Your apps will work on almost all of the Linux distros (GNU/ or not) and *BSD w/o any effort, and getting them to work otherwise is not only possible, but usually easy.