8 ms·

I recently switched to Linux (from Windows 10 - forced upgrade took 45' in the middle of an extremely important moment) Debian netinstall + Mate desktop (Gnome

• ISL 8y ago
  Welcome back!
• tumdum_ 8y ago
  Wait ~6 months, and you will encounter a case where simple package update will cost you more than that 45 minutes ;)
  • taneq 8y ago
    Maybe, but it's never going to force you to reboot to install some shovelware that you don't want and can't opt out of.
    • John_KZ 8y ago
      There's a pretty spectacular performance boost too. Microsoft stealing my electricity and computing power to run bloatware and analytics on data they steal from me is just too much. In the past I thought the idea of "really controlling what's going on with your computer" was just purist mambo jumbo, but windows 10 came to prove me wrong.
    • tumdum_ 8y ago
      Migration of many distros to systemd forced many people to do exactly that ;)
      • Accacin 8y ago
        Did it? I must have missed that.
        • dpwm 8y ago
          There was a little bit of pain but it was nowhere near as bad as some make out. I migrated all my arch boxes at the time just fine and the main work was writing unit files -- which compared to writing init scripts was mainly trivial. Is systemd the best init system? No. But to some of us it was an improvement over what came before it and it really hasn't given us the trouble that others claim it has given them. I remember a colleague who ran Linux From Scratch on his laptop who was abhorred by the changes. We spent an afternoon trying to remove the stuff from an Ubuntu VM image he didn't consider necessary and a lot of it was really alien to him. As an fvwm user he really couldn't understand why almost everything needed dbus and pulseaudio. I couldn't understand a lot of the strange packaging dependencies either. And yet these are things that to me have improved real pain-points in linux distros.
      • gkya 8y ago
        Yeah, but at least you can remove it if you want.
  • aerique 8y ago
    You are correct, but Windows and OS X cost me more time in the end because I'm unfamiliar with them.
  • lmm 8y ago
    Yep. If you want the "Linux experience" these days you have to move to BSD.
    • gkya 8y ago
      I LOVE *BSDs, but this statement is just false. The linux sphere is full of very nice experiences. Projects like Void and Alpine are out there, and then there are the gems like NixOS and GuixSD.
  • csdreamer7 8y ago
    Would you elaborate? I have never had that problem with Ubuntu based distros.
    • tumdum_ 8y ago
      I wish I had that experience. For me update to ubuntu 17.10 broke many things - the most annoying was migration to wayland which brought with it crashes when using multiple monitors via docking station. Arch seems to have the same problems, and in addition few days ago I discovered that my wifi stopped working (that laptop was docked and was using wired connection for last few weeks but had wifi working before). The worst part is those are the machines I use for work ;(
      • asfdsfggtfd 8y ago
        > For me update to ubuntu 17.10 broke many things > The worst part is those are the machines I use for work ;( Why are you using experimental OSs on work machines? The LTS versions exist for a reason.
      • csdreamer7 8y ago
        Okay. I assumed you were talking about a simple update itself. Not a system upgrade to 17.10. I know one guy who bragged that he never restarted an Ubuntu laptop in years, just letting it update, suspend and resume, never restarting it. I have had package upgrade issues with Debian Testing and Manjaro (Arch), but never Ubuntu. Did you disable Wayland? You can easily select X.org on the log in. Or just use 18.04 which went back to X by default. Also, I think you are being unfair, upgrades on Windows are bad too. You are always recommended to a do a fresh install. You need to work on describing your actual issues instead of being so vague if you actually want help with things. Like with this: > Arch seems to have the same problems, and in addition few days ago I discovered that my wifi stopped working (that laptop was docked and was using wired connection for last few weeks but had wifi working before). I do not know if your wifi gave out on 17.10 or Arch. Arch is it's own bag of worms-for all I know you are running a prerelease kernel on that new Intel NUC that runs poorly on Windows right now due to bad drivers. Arch breaks a lot on it's own. You shouldn't be using it if you don't intend to fix it. If you want a more user friendly with Arch, try Manjaro.
  • sandebert 8y ago
    Really? I've used Linux for ten years or so have never had a problem like this. When I started using it I was really, really worried because I suspected this be standard behaviour really. ”Surely this 'package management' thing will break things all the time?”. But nope, runs like clockwork. (I've always used Debian based distros, if that's a factor.)
    • pjmlp 8y ago
      On Ubuntu it occurs a few times that I needed to clean up the dpkg locks.
  • imtringued 8y ago
    Windows significant issues with the update process. Every now and then microsoft releases their broken updates that cause your PC to enter a bootloop and then you have to reinstall windows. So far this has happened on almost every version of windows that I've used.
  • laumars 8y ago
    You will run into problems like that on any platform. Want to do a "quick" Windows Update? OK, let's just schedule in 2 hours of downtime. What about OS X packages that aren't in the app store - sure lots of solutions exist but none are without their occasional problems. While package management is a solved problem (well, on all platforms outside of Windows that is), that doesn't mean that occasional issues will not arise. Though for what it's worth: I run Arch which is about as hands on as it gets without compiling your own packages and it's been 10 years since the last time a package update cost me 45 minutes or longer of my time.
    • gkya 8y ago
      Add to that that you can work while the update is being downloaded and applied; and in the very few occasions where reboot is absolutely inevitable (I have never had such a situation since many years; even the new kernel can wait until I'm done with my things and ready to reboot to bring it online), it's just a reboot, nothing more. With Windows 10, it just blocks you with a screen that has a message telling "I'm doing my things now" and a progress report. Your work is inevitably interrupted. For example, I sometimes play some games on my brother's Win 10 PC (I don't use Windows on my laptop, and don't want to bother with setting up Wine and the games on it). A couple days ago it wanted to update, and I told it to postpone. Then I left for 15 minutes and came back, there was an update going on. It blocked us out of the computer for the entire afternoon and most of the evening doing black magic behind a soft blue screen.
      • jamesgeck0 8y ago
        While I don't love Window Update's behavior, that particular major update was released about a month ago. Your brother has been postponing it for weeks.
  • belorn 8y ago
    I can say for certain that I have never had a package update interrupting me in the middle of an extremely important moment, and for a very simply reason. I do not update my packages during extremely important moments. I have never had the itch in the middle of a presentation to say "Wait everyone, a update came so lets have you all sit and wait and look while the machine do a 45 minutes update".
    • jake_the_third 8y ago
      I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but forced updates have already come to linux: https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for-snap-from-store/707 https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/disabling-automatic-refresh-for... Even applications you'd expect to be native (apt packages) like `gnome-system-monitor` are included as snaps by default in the desktop version of ubuntu 18.04. All it takes is a someone with sufficient authority to make disabling snaps very difficult.[1] Unfortunately, there are plenty of lunatics on both sides of the fence who think they should have the final say in what you can do with your computer and when you can do it. [1] E.g gnome developers decided to change the default behavior of the power button, then decided that users shouldn't be allowed to change this behavior: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=755953 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=755953
      • Nadya 8y ago
        Has come to Ubuntu flavors of Linux* and it seems, especially, just GNOME? I don't have this problem with Arch and pacman -Syu at my leisure. I refuse to use autoupdating software out of principle and am saddened so many people choose convenience over security.
        • gkya 8y ago
          Not only, but Debian wouldn't do this ever too. It's just as easy to run a Debian desktop spin, and it does not have any of the scandals or idiotic decisions Ubuntu has. This is what's nice with the distro ecosystem. Someone messes their thing up and gives you the middle finger? Say bye and switch to a saner thing. Your apps will work on almost all of the Linux distros (GNU/ or not) and *BSD w/o any effort, and getting them to work otherwise is not only possible, but usually easy.
• giancarlostoro 8y ago
  Mate is what Gnome 2 was like but with obviously modern things added in since its based off Gtk3 like Gnome 3 is basically. I personally use KDE it gives me a 'full blown desktop' feel and surprisingly uses way less RAM than if I ran Windows 10 directly.
• philliphaydon 8y ago
  Spent 2 weeks using Budgie Ubuntu in virtual box, put it as my main desktop at home on the weekend. It really has improved a lot.
• aerique 8y ago
  I had more or less the same situation with my last remaining Windows machine (mainly for games). I thought Windows reboots were supposed to get less over the years but it has only gotten worse and I've got less autonomy over them with Windows 10. Go away from your computer for a little while and come back to a reboot (a little hyperbole). Now my gaming PC run Void Linux and with native Steam and Wine (PlayOnLinux, Lutris) I've got access to most of my game library. It's easier to just ignore the few games that do not work on Linux nowadays. Diablo 3 runs pretty well on it. (Still, I prefer to avoid Window'isms on Linux so no Gnome, Pulseaudio and other complications (which Void Linux makes easy to avoid).)
  • baud147258 8y ago
    > I thought Windows reboots were supposed to get less over the years It's funny, I can't remember last time I had a forced reboot, either at work or at home, both on Windows 10. On the other hand, I'm shutting down my PC regularly
    • s3m4j 8y ago
      Anecdotal, but I, on the other hand, have had quite a few forced reboot. I close the lid of my laptop and Windows goes to sleep, but during the night it somehow decides to do its thing and reboots. The thing is, I have BIOS password and a dual boot. It will then just hangs indefinitely on the BIOS password prompt. Fans spinning, CPU unthrottled for hours. And then lose network drivers inside Windows. Reinstalling drivers in the morning is not fun.
      • dpwm 8y ago
        That sounds like it's setting an RTC timer to wake up. You may be able to disable that. It may be called wake on timer or wake on RTC.
        • s3m4j 8y ago
          I have win10 pro, in theory I have disabled automatic reboots. In theory.
• 8bitsrule 8y ago
  It's pretty different from the Redhat in the bookstore days. I tried MINT 5 years ago, and never looked back. While the top-rated distros might not be simple enough for grandma to -install-, after that it's cakewalk. (unless she's picked up bad habits using previous OS's). Forced upgrades ... man that's WAY far into the Dominator zone.
  • simonh 8y ago
    No forced upgrades is good, but e.g. from the requirements in the howto on upgrading Mint 17 to 18: * Good understanding of APT and vast experience in working from the command-line. Have fun Grandma!
    • zrobotics 8y ago
      I've always liked the way debian/Debian based systems do updates. Older versions of windows were maybe a little too subtle (many users just ignored the small icon in the tray) vs. the large dialog box that pops up. It's also very easy to just hit accept and let it run in the background. I switched my father's laptop over several years ago (he only surfs the internet/email/scans/prints) and haven't had a tech support call for two years. I'm stuck on windows until there's a decent mechanical CAD avaliable, but good lord am I wishing I stayed with 7. This is the first time I've ever had to change the default in GRUB to windows in ~10 years of dual-boot, since otherwise I have to babysit the thing every update. Sad part is, I actually prefer the UX of 10 more than even MacOS, but for anything 'power-user' orientated it's just such a pain to administer. Side note: has anyone else had problems with system settings reverting to default after updates? I've turned off the suggestion notifications several times, as well as neutering cortana.
• donquichotte 8y ago
  2018 is, after all, the year of the Linux desktop. I was surprised to find that Ubuntu 16.04 worked better on my Thinkpad T450s than the stock Windows 10 install (which came with a lot of crapware). I had sound stutters and mult-monitor issues on Windows, and everything worked out of the box on Ubuntu.
  • berbec 8y ago
    > $(date +%Y)+1 is the year of the Linux desktop. Fixed that for you :)
    • majewsky 8y ago
      echo $(($(date +%Y)+1)) is the year of the Linux desktop. Let's go all the way, shall we?
      • smichel17 8y ago
        Now set a cron job to echo that every Jan 1st.
        • Crespyl 8y ago
          Today is Setting Orange, the 4th day of Confusion in the Year Of the Linux Desktop 3184.
  • celerity 8y ago
    To be fair, 200X was the Year of the Linux Desktop for us Linux users.
  • megaman22 8y ago
    The first rule of Windows is you wipe whatever the OEM has on it as soon as you pull it out of the box, and put a clean OS install on it.
• JepZ 8y ago
  Btw. modern AMD graphics cards are much easier to use and mostly 'just work' out of the box as AMD is actively supporting the development of the open source driver. Intel graphics are fine too, but as we all know, their performance isn't that good.
  • pjmlp 8y ago
    Kind of, since they rebooted their driver, the experience is not that good in older cards. I lost video hardware acceleration on my EEE PC with the AMD APU.
• ahje 8y ago
  Same here. Debian netinstall + MATE Desktop is simply put the best desktop experience I've had. I have Windows 10 in a VM, and it seems it needs updates + reboot every time I turn it on, although that might be because I only boot it once a month or so.
• yani 8y ago
  It is not Linux DE that has improved but rather the applications that we use commonly are web based and available via the browser. This makes netbooks the logical next step IMO
• probably_wrong 8y ago
  Long time Mate user here. The "problem" with Mate is that it just works. I interact with Windows and OSX daily, and I have yet to find a feature that makes me thing "I wish my desktop environment could do this". Mate gets out of my way and lets me work. In other words, it's boring. There's nothing new and shiny to be excited about, because it's as good as it gets. I left Gnome 3 because I was tired of visual effects getting on my way, but those visual effects were what attracted me to Gnome 3 to begin with. I think Mate lacks that "wow!" factor and, as grateful as I am for that, I think this might stop it from being more popular.
  • brusch64 8y ago
    I have no experience with Mate, but the feature I miss the most in the traditional desktops is starting programs by hitting the super (Windows) key and typing the programs. I know that you can use Alt+F2 for this, but using super is much more ingrained for me since I've seen Windows Vista (I am using Linux at home and Windows systems at work)
    • laumars 8y ago
      KDE works that way on my Arch install without any additional tweaking. And I'm pretty sure you could configure the launcher in any DE to work that way if you looked at its hotkey settings (they're usually re-definable in my experience)
      • brusch64 8y ago
        The last time I've really tried out KDE (many years ago, in the KDE4 era) it didn't work and I had to install an extension (that didn't quite work for me) to get that to work. But I've heard that they've changed it later. After some configuration I've installed XFCE on this PC and was much happier. I even found a menu and a configuration for XFCE that worked like I wanted it to work.
        • majewsky 8y ago
          I specifically remember that the input handling code in KDE was adjusted a few years ago to handle single-key shortcuts where the single key is a modifier, esp. the Windows key.
• ourmandave 8y ago
  My desktop has been in perpetual update hell for months. Every reboot update hangs immediately on the restart. I have to hard shutdown and then restart. It boots normally, complains the update failed, and re-downloads the giant update files again in the background. Then lets me put it off another 4 days. Thanks MS!
  • acou_nPlusOne_t 8y ago
    We are so happy, you experienced our fantastic continously integrated customer epxerience that we release carefully untested to our selected users. To be honest, that windows could degrade that much, without the people running en mass to chrombooks or linux, shows just how far these are away from what people expect from a desktop experience. They dont want to relearn gui concepts, they do not want to miss theire programs, they do not want to study computer sciences to use theire machines, and they suffer in silence through all this for that. Im sure this is supossed a statement to show how bad windows is, but it truely reveals how pitiful the competition beyond niche-groups is.
    • AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      That's my feeling. If you can't even win over users from a system who's vendor seems to be intentionally trying to kill it off, your system must be really awful. Not that evangelists will see it that way. Their way of doing things is right, everyone else's is wrong and stupid.
• Jerry2 8y ago
  I used MATE for about a year and then switched to Cinnamon because of some issues I've had with MATE. I find Cinnamon the best DE for Linux. It has the best UI, shortcuts and the best file manager. As for GNOME, it's way too dumbed-down. You have to find and install dozens of extensions to have a decent desktop.
  • brightball 8y ago
    Same. I have really enjoyed Cinnamon after taking a spin with everything. Anxiously awaiting the Mint 19 update with all of the new Cinnamon work too.
• shmerl 8y ago
  Switching to AMD GPU will generally improve your desktop experience further (because of upstreamed driver and better integration).