7 ms·

Ocean waves play greater role in trapping CO2 than previously understood

142 points by startupflix 8y ago

FrozenVoid 8y ago
Co2 absorption is likely also enchanced by water/air mixing that exists in uneven shore terrain, like bays/fjords/reefs/underwater rocks/etc which create powerful underwater currents with tides and weather. https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/1520-0485(1989)019%3C0917:VMIBWO%3E2.0.CO;2 https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/1520-0485(1989)... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0037073880900068 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0037073880... There is also a biological component: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/04/tiny-shrimp-may-be-mixing-ocean-water-much-wind-and-waves https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/04/tiny-shrimp-may-be-m...
xstartup 8y ago
Peeing from sufficient height also traps CO2. Can anyone confirm?
Proven 8y ago
Does that mean governments will cut various CO2 taxes? Probably not. It’s never enough.
jimnotgym 8y ago
Excellent. Global warming>more storms> more waves> more CO2 trapped... hard to make that in to a solution though!
- ph0rque 8y ago
  Not a complete solution, but a dampening feedback loop, giving humanity a bit more time to come up with solutions.
  - amelius 8y ago
    Melting ice is a positive feedback loop (less light is reflected, thus more warming). I wonder which contribution is greater: melting ice, or CO2 trapping waves (?)
    - ph0rque 8y ago
      Yes, a chaotic system which is hard to predict.
- 9192631770_Hz 8y ago
  The increased acidification isn't excellent, though.
  - 24gttghh 8y ago
    I would put ocean acidification on par with or being worse than global warming by itself.
    - delbel 8y ago
      then you would be happy to know that there is zero scientific evidence supporting ocean acidfication. the science is based on data from measurements of PH values before chemistry established the existence of an acid or base, let alone the ocean is actually not acidic but has a PH between 7.5 and 8.4, so if anything the ocean is becoming more neutral if there were in fact any basis to the argument. I'm glad I was able to lighten up your day now that you no longer have to worry about this phoney science.
      - phyzome 8y ago
        Can't even tell if satire.
      - phreeza 8y ago
        I just did some back of the envelope math and I believe dissolving all of the atmospheric co2 into the oceans would lead to a concentration of about 2g/m^3. Not sure what the effect of that on pH would be, but sure sounds like it wouldn't be a lot.
        delbel 8y ago
        I did a similar calculation to figure out how much energy it would take to acidify the ocean just a little bit, and it was absolutely ridiculous magnitude of a number it wouldn't be possible even if we tried.
        8y ago
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- donarb 8y ago
  But more warming also causes seas to warm, which causes CO2 to evaporate from the water, so the effect may be a wash.
- chris_va 8y ago
  Technically that is exactly how you make a solution ... of carbonic acid! <walking away now>
jacob019 8y ago
Are man made structures that interfere with the crashing of waves are having an effect on atmospheric CO2?
phyzome 8y ago
Lest people think "ooh, this is great!" -- it's not, at least not beyond "having a better understanding of the world is good". The following might be reasonable (if not necessarily feasible) carbon sinks: - Conversion to other materials (plastic, graphite, fuel (sort of)) - Injection into salt domes The following are bad carbon sinks: - Your lungs - The ocean CO2 dissolving in the ocean produces carbonic acid, and ocean acidification is a huge problem -- it dissolves the shells of a number of creatures, and fucks up the entire biochemistry of the ecosystem. Remember, a lot of bacteria (including ones right at the bottom of the food web) use the ocean water as a sort of communal extracellular medium for nutrient exchange, and pH affects nutrient availability differently for different nutrients. Changing the pH throws everything out of whack, just like making your blood more acidic or basic would hurt or kill you.
- mkempe 8y ago
  The sky is not falling. There are immense quantities of certain creatures in the ocean that take CO2, emit O2, and eventually die and sink to the bottom of the ocean, thus building deep layers of sediments and sequestering enormous amounts of carbon. They've been doing this for almost 2 billion years: phytoplankton account for about half of all photosynthetic activity on Earth (thereby consuming CO2); 50-85% of the oxygen in the atmosphere is produced via phytoplankton photosynthesis. There have been past periods with at least 10x the current CO2 level, yet all of these oceanic organisms have thrived through it all. [added] The massive accumulation of dead plankton in sea floors for millions of years is the primary origin story of oil and coal. Clearly oceans are a very large carbon sink.
  - th3byrdm4n 8y ago
    You're one chart away from [deleted].
    - mkempe 8y ago
      What do you mean?
  - civilitty 8y ago
0xcafecafe 8y ago
This is just depressing. Just a couple weeks back we saw the article about plastic being found at the botton of the Mariana trench and now this.
southern_cross 8y ago
Two stories just out of HWU, both related to the uptake of CO2 by the oceans and apparently pointing in opposite directions. https://www.hw.ac.uk/about/news/new-research-reveals-ocean-waves-play.htm https://www.hw.ac.uk/about/news/new-research-reveals-ocean-w... https://www.hw.ac.uk/about/news/invisible-barrier-on-ocean-surface-reduces.htm https://www.hw.ac.uk/about/news/invisible-barrier-on-ocean-s...
petermcneeley 8y ago
Tangential: Biosphere 2 had CO2 absorption issues with the concrete of the superstructure. http://biology.kenyon.edu/slonc/bio3/2000projects/carroll_d_walker_e/whatwentwrong.html http://biology.kenyon.edu/slonc/bio3/2000projects/carroll_d_...

142 points by startupflix 8y ago

Co2 absorption is likely also enchanced by water/air mixing that exists in uneven shore terrain, like bays/fjords/reefs/underwater rocks/etc which create powerful underwater currents with tides and weather. https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/1520-0485(1989)019%3C0917:VMIBWO%3E2.0.CO;2 https://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/abs/10.1175/1520-0485(1989)... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0037073880900068 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0037073880... There is also a biological component: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/04/tiny-shrimp-may-be-mixing-ocean-water-much-wind-and-waves https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/04/tiny-shrimp-may-be-m...

xstartup 8y ago

Peeing from sufficient height also traps CO2. Can anyone confirm?

Proven 8y ago

Does that mean governments will cut various CO2 taxes? Probably not. It’s never enough.

jimnotgym 8y ago

Excellent. Global warming>more storms> more waves> more CO2 trapped... hard to make that in to a solution though!

ph0rque 8y ago
Not a complete solution, but a dampening feedback loop, giving humanity a bit more time to come up with solutions.
- amelius 8y ago
  Melting ice is a positive feedback loop (less light is reflected, thus more warming). I wonder which contribution is greater: melting ice, or CO2 trapping waves (?)
  - ph0rque 8y ago
    Yes, a chaotic system which is hard to predict.
9192631770_Hz 8y ago
The increased acidification isn't excellent, though.
- 24gttghh 8y ago
  I would put ocean acidification on par with or being worse than global warming by itself.
  - delbel 8y ago
    then you would be happy to know that there is zero scientific evidence supporting ocean acidfication. the science is based on data from measurements of PH values before chemistry established the existence of an acid or base, let alone the ocean is actually not acidic but has a PH between 7.5 and 8.4, so if anything the ocean is becoming more neutral if there were in fact any basis to the argument. I'm glad I was able to lighten up your day now that you no longer have to worry about this phoney science.
    - phyzome 8y ago
      Can't even tell if satire.
    - phreeza 8y ago
      I just did some back of the envelope math and I believe dissolving all of the atmospheric co2 into the oceans would lead to a concentration of about 2g/m^3. Not sure what the effect of that on pH would be, but sure sounds like it wouldn't be a lot.
      - delbel 8y ago
        I did a similar calculation to figure out how much energy it would take to acidify the ocean just a little bit, and it was absolutely ridiculous magnitude of a number it wouldn't be possible even if we tried.
        8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
donarb 8y ago
But more warming also causes seas to warm, which causes CO2 to evaporate from the water, so the effect may be a wash.
chris_va 8y ago
Technically that is exactly how you make a solution ... of carbonic acid! <walking away now>

jacob019 8y ago

Are man made structures that interfere with the crashing of waves are having an effect on atmospheric CO2?

phyzome 8y ago

Lest people think "ooh, this is great!" -- it's not, at least not beyond "having a better understanding of the world is good". The following might be reasonable (if not necessarily feasible) carbon sinks: - Conversion to other materials (plastic, graphite, fuel (sort of)) - Injection into salt domes The following are bad carbon sinks: - Your lungs - The ocean CO2 dissolving in the ocean produces carbonic acid, and ocean acidification is a huge problem -- it dissolves the shells of a number of creatures, and fucks up the entire biochemistry of the ecosystem. Remember, a lot of bacteria (including ones right at the bottom of the food web) use the ocean water as a sort of communal extracellular medium for nutrient exchange, and pH affects nutrient availability differently for different nutrients. Changing the pH throws everything out of whack, just like making your blood more acidic or basic would hurt or kill you.

mkempe 8y ago
The sky is not falling. There are immense quantities of certain creatures in the ocean that take CO2, emit O2, and eventually die and sink to the bottom of the ocean, thus building deep layers of sediments and sequestering enormous amounts of carbon. They've been doing this for almost 2 billion years: phytoplankton account for about half of all photosynthetic activity on Earth (thereby consuming CO2); 50-85% of the oxygen in the atmosphere is produced via phytoplankton photosynthesis. There have been past periods with at least 10x the current CO2 level, yet all of these oceanic organisms have thrived through it all. [added] The massive accumulation of dead plankton in sea floors for millions of years is the primary origin story of oil and coal. Clearly oceans are a very large carbon sink.
- th3byrdm4n 8y ago
  You're one chart away from [deleted].
  - mkempe 8y ago
    What do you mean?
- civilitty 8y ago

0xcafecafe 8y ago

This is just depressing. Just a couple weeks back we saw the article about plastic being found at the botton of the Mariana trench and now this.

southern_cross 8y ago

Two stories just out of HWU, both related to the uptake of CO2 by the oceans and apparently pointing in opposite directions. https://www.hw.ac.uk/about/news/new-research-reveals-ocean-waves-play.htm https://www.hw.ac.uk/about/news/new-research-reveals-ocean-w... https://www.hw.ac.uk/about/news/invisible-barrier-on-ocean-surface-reduces.htm https://www.hw.ac.uk/about/news/invisible-barrier-on-ocean-s...

petermcneeley 8y ago

Tangential: Biosphere 2 had CO2 absorption issues with the concrete of the superstructure. http://biology.kenyon.edu/slonc/bio3/2000projects/carroll_d_walker_e/whatwentwrong.html http://biology.kenyon.edu/slonc/bio3/2000projects/carroll_d_...