7 ms·

> God's purpose is not to make us comfortable or to make life easy. It is to make us better, and happier. I'm not religious and I don't think life has a purpos

by Aaargh20318 8y ago

> God's purpose is not to make us comfortable or to make life easy. It is to make us better, and happier. I'm not religious and I don't think life has a purpose, but this sounds like a contradiction. How can life be good if it's not comfortable and easy ? You're basically saying she's making life better by making it worse. That makes no sense. > My point is this: experiencing a hard time doesn't mean you are doing anything wrong - it can come just as easily to someone doing everything right as to someone doing everything wrong Of course it doesn't, but that doesn't mean there is some higher power guiding it. Life is just random, bad stuff happens for no reason, so does good stuff.

anonthrowaway2 8y ago
Having some challenges is more fun than just vegging all day. Having too many challenges, maybe not, but some? Necessary for most people's happiness.
abraae 8y ago
> How can life be good if it's not comfortable and easy ? Really? As soon as you encounter discomfort or difficulty, life's no longer good? That philosophy will be wearying over the years.
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  How much discomfort and difficulty are too much?
  - Aaargh20318 8y ago
    Any. Good doesn't compensate for bad. That is: if you start out life at a neutral score of 0, subtract points for anything negative, do not add any points for positive stuff.
- krageon 8y ago
  This is hedonism. If you are a hedonist, then this sentence will not make sense to you. Some people go through their entire lives without ever thinking they could approach it any other way, so I don't think it's as wearying as you imply here. It all depends on what you think is important.
  - rusk 8y ago
    My personal take is that Hedonism isn't zero-sum. By that I mean, a hedonistic life-style can't support itself, so if you're living a hedonistic lifestyle and never have to rebalance yourself you're taking energy somewhere or somebody is emotionally bankrolling you. Thus you sacrifice your individuality, independence and a sizeable chunk of the human experience. For most people if such an approach continues unchecked it leads to burnout.
    - Aaargh20318 8y ago
      > if you're living a hedonistic lifestyle and never have to rebalance yourself you're taking energy somewhere What kind of energy are hedonistic people taking ? Electric ? Kinetic ? Thermal ? Magnetic ?
      - rusk 8y ago
        A bit of everything. Of course I meant emotional energy which you're likely to poopoo as "not" energy but I'd contend that the definition of energy in physics is an operational one. But even so, if you're partying all the time then somebody has to pay to keep the lights on. Somebody has to clean up after you and somebody has to constantly buoy your emotional state and protect you from the negative thoughts that might otherwise threaten your party. I would contend that all of this takes "energy" as defined in the canon of physics.
        Aaargh20318 8y ago
        > if you're partying all the time then somebody has to pay to keep the lights on. Somebody has to clean up after you and somebody has to constantly buoy your emotional state and protect you from the negative thoughts that might otherwise threaten your party Sure, but that's not what I would call and 'easy and comfortable' life. If I live alone on an island with enough food growing around me to feed me, that would be an easy life. What would that take of other people ?
        8y ago
- Aaargh20318 8y ago
  > As soon as you encounter discomfort or difficulty, life's no longer good? Yes. I'm also of the opinion that the good doesn't compensate for the bad. Life is suffering, and being born is the worst thing that can happen to a person (I'm an anti-natalist and supporter of the voluntary human extinction movement).
  - tomrod 8y ago
    You and I have very different views I think. I'm amazed, humbled, and grateful to be alive (not to any sentience, mind you, just grateful). To be the universe experiencing itself. Life includes suffering, yes, but also the opportunity to ease the suffering of self and others. I interpret your point of antinatalism that you see humanity as the fluke of the probability. Personally, I think we give ourselves meaning, and I can think of no better long-term mission for existence than beating heat death of the universe, even if it's simply to give a middle-finger to the universe for the suffering people endure.
jack_pp 8y ago
> How can life be good if it's not comfortable and easy ? Do you have fun playing tic-tac-toe? The harder a game is the more rewarding it is to succeed at it. Some games are so hard they can crush you but if you manage to rise up again and eventually succeed then you will be stronger for the experience and happier. One example of this is the game of regular jobs vs the game of startups. A regular job is easy and comfortable but few people are content and the ceiling of achievement is not that high. A startup can make you have mental breakdowns but if you manage to eventually win you'll be much richer /respected than someone who played it safe.
- Aaargh20318 8y ago
  > The harder a game is the more rewarding it is to succeed at it. No it's not. I hate games that are too hard. Back in the day when cheat codes were still a thing I used to play most games in 'god mode' all the time. Also, what do you define as 'success'. For me a comfortable and easy life is success.
  - jack_pp 8y ago
    Everyone hates games that are too hard, that is why people progress gradually and depending on each individual's ambition they will work harder to progress faster and play harder games as they progress. Even if you're not ambitious you still don't play the simplest games possible, you still try to play games that are somewhat difficult. The analogy for computer games cheats in real life are drugs / wireheading. If your goal is to just feel good regardless why not do heroin?
    - Aaargh20318 8y ago
      > Even if you're not ambitious you still don't play the simplest games possible, you still try to play games that are somewhat difficult. Not really. I mainly play games for the story. > If your goal is to just feel good regardless why not do heroin? Because that also has negative consequences. If all it did was make you feel good, then sure.
yonoataraxia 8y ago
> How can life be good if it's not comfortable and easy Good question. Nietzsche talked alot about this issue, this was his very main concern when he talked about "becoming oneself" as one of many desirable (subjective) goals in life that can give us meaning. You don't even need religion to endure suffering with meaning. It depends on your definition of a good life. I hope you see that it's not a objective truth that life is good when it's comfortable and easy. It can be that you see it as your goal, but e.g. I don't want that - but this isn't even relevant. Important is to understand that all truths that we believe in are assumptions (some of them called "facts" which are assumptions commonly shared by many people or in a group) and that they can differ between individuals which means that we perceive reality differently. Objectively describing what reality is is not possible - this is one key aspect of epistemology. "Bad stuff" and "good stuff" has also subjective and normative aspects. What do we perceive as good or bad? It's based on values and a belief system. For a nihilist there's not even "good" or "bad" because those can only be defined with a belief system. Nihilists have a collapsed belief system which says that nothing has inherent value. But the question is: What is the motivation for an individual to become a nihilist? (pro: you don't have to take responsibility and fight for your beliefs, con: it can suck alot to have a meaningless life) Does your belief system enables you to be happy and fulfilled (in your terms)? This is the relevant question I would personally use to assess if a belief system is enabling or hindering you.
- Aaargh20318 8y ago
  > It depends on your definition of a good life. For me it's simple: an easy, comfortable life with as little contact with human beings as possible. > Objectively describing what reality is is not possible I disagree. I believe there is such a thing as absolute, objective truth. A 'fact' is not a shared assumption, a fact is any statement to which a truth value can be assigned.
  - yonoataraxia 8y ago
    To say it in programmer terms: belief systems are functions that assign truth values to assumptions. for example a belief system can look like this: belief_system("earth is flat") -> false belief_system("life is meaningless") -> true Where is the truth value coming from? For a flat earther: They can e.g. use a emotional and individual belief system to determine truth values. For a scientific-minded person: They assign truth values based on scientific evidence (which is a type of assumption). btw: saying there is absolute and objective truth is highly unscientific - science is based on the premise that you can replace theories with another theory if the evidence suggests it. The problem of induction shows the limit of empiric evidence and I hope that most scientists are aligned with this scientific principles (otherwise they aren't scientists by definition). IMHO there is no absolute truth that can be identified as such (I'm not assuming that there isn't objective truth, but merely that we couldn't identify it if there is such a thing). It's like IT security, it is a relative measurement and the relations (in this case) are made by belief systems. There is a consensus that there is no "absolute security" in the security sector. If you accept that there is no absolute security in IT systems and only "reasonable security" (I do not assume that you do assume this), why do you have problems to accept that there might not be a way to recognize the "true truth values"? If you see absolute security as a given you don't have to solve this conflict. I'm merely exercising logic here using my assumptions (and yes, some of them I call "facts", but I see them as something which gets defined by my belief system). your belief: belief_system("there is such a thing as absolute, objective truth") my belief: belief_system("truth as we use it in our daily lives is defined by our belief systems") btw, would love to see discussions using assumptions and then logically deriving conclusions. Especially funny when somebody has conflicting assumptions (logic of explosion).
tomrod 8y ago
Former religious person here. A common analogy drawn upon is a tree. A tree that faces no hardship (bad weather, etc.) looks pretty but has little depth and can't sustain during high winds and such. The converse says that if a tree has survived hard times it probably will survive additional hard times. It's bollocks, of course, and often pacifies folks from working to improve their own personal situations. Nietzche's religious critiques come to mind in this type of situation.
- Aaargh20318 8y ago
  > A tree that faces no hardship (bad weather, etc.) looks pretty but has little depth and can't sustain during high winds and such. It doesn't need to because it doesn't face hardship.

anonthrowaway2 8y ago

Having some challenges is more fun than just vegging all day. Having too many challenges, maybe not, but some? Necessary for most people's happiness.

abraae 8y ago

> How can life be good if it's not comfortable and easy ? Really? As soon as you encounter discomfort or difficulty, life's no longer good? That philosophy will be wearying over the years.

TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
How much discomfort and difficulty are too much?
- Aaargh20318 8y ago
  Any. Good doesn't compensate for bad. That is: if you start out life at a neutral score of 0, subtract points for anything negative, do not add any points for positive stuff.
krageon 8y ago
This is hedonism. If you are a hedonist, then this sentence will not make sense to you. Some people go through their entire lives without ever thinking they could approach it any other way, so I don't think it's as wearying as you imply here. It all depends on what you think is important.
- rusk 8y ago
  My personal take is that Hedonism isn't zero-sum. By that I mean, a hedonistic life-style can't support itself, so if you're living a hedonistic lifestyle and never have to rebalance yourself you're taking energy somewhere or somebody is emotionally bankrolling you. Thus you sacrifice your individuality, independence and a sizeable chunk of the human experience. For most people if such an approach continues unchecked it leads to burnout.
  - Aaargh20318 8y ago
    > if you're living a hedonistic lifestyle and never have to rebalance yourself you're taking energy somewhere What kind of energy are hedonistic people taking ? Electric ? Kinetic ? Thermal ? Magnetic ?
    - rusk 8y ago
      A bit of everything. Of course I meant emotional energy which you're likely to poopoo as "not" energy but I'd contend that the definition of energy in physics is an operational one. But even so, if you're partying all the time then somebody has to pay to keep the lights on. Somebody has to clean up after you and somebody has to constantly buoy your emotional state and protect you from the negative thoughts that might otherwise threaten your party. I would contend that all of this takes "energy" as defined in the canon of physics.
      - Aaargh20318 8y ago
        > if you're partying all the time then somebody has to pay to keep the lights on. Somebody has to clean up after you and somebody has to constantly buoy your emotional state and protect you from the negative thoughts that might otherwise threaten your party Sure, but that's not what I would call and 'easy and comfortable' life. If I live alone on an island with enough food growing around me to feed me, that would be an easy life. What would that take of other people ?
        8y ago
Aaargh20318 8y ago
> As soon as you encounter discomfort or difficulty, life's no longer good? Yes. I'm also of the opinion that the good doesn't compensate for the bad. Life is suffering, and being born is the worst thing that can happen to a person (I'm an anti-natalist and supporter of the voluntary human extinction movement).
- tomrod 8y ago
  You and I have very different views I think. I'm amazed, humbled, and grateful to be alive (not to any sentience, mind you, just grateful). To be the universe experiencing itself. Life includes suffering, yes, but also the opportunity to ease the suffering of self and others. I interpret your point of antinatalism that you see humanity as the fluke of the probability. Personally, I think we give ourselves meaning, and I can think of no better long-term mission for existence than beating heat death of the universe, even if it's simply to give a middle-finger to the universe for the suffering people endure.

jack_pp 8y ago

> How can life be good if it's not comfortable and easy ? Do you have fun playing tic-tac-toe? The harder a game is the more rewarding it is to succeed at it. Some games are so hard they can crush you but if you manage to rise up again and eventually succeed then you will be stronger for the experience and happier. One example of this is the game of regular jobs vs the game of startups. A regular job is easy and comfortable but few people are content and the ceiling of achievement is not that high. A startup can make you have mental breakdowns but if you manage to eventually win you'll be much richer /respected than someone who played it safe.

Aaargh20318 8y ago
> The harder a game is the more rewarding it is to succeed at it. No it's not. I hate games that are too hard. Back in the day when cheat codes were still a thing I used to play most games in 'god mode' all the time. Also, what do you define as 'success'. For me a comfortable and easy life is success.
- jack_pp 8y ago
  Everyone hates games that are too hard, that is why people progress gradually and depending on each individual's ambition they will work harder to progress faster and play harder games as they progress. Even if you're not ambitious you still don't play the simplest games possible, you still try to play games that are somewhat difficult. The analogy for computer games cheats in real life are drugs / wireheading. If your goal is to just feel good regardless why not do heroin?
  - Aaargh20318 8y ago
    > Even if you're not ambitious you still don't play the simplest games possible, you still try to play games that are somewhat difficult. Not really. I mainly play games for the story. > If your goal is to just feel good regardless why not do heroin? Because that also has negative consequences. If all it did was make you feel good, then sure.

yonoataraxia 8y ago

> How can life be good if it's not comfortable and easy Good question. Nietzsche talked alot about this issue, this was his very main concern when he talked about "becoming oneself" as one of many desirable (subjective) goals in life that can give us meaning. You don't even need religion to endure suffering with meaning. It depends on your definition of a good life. I hope you see that it's not a objective truth that life is good when it's comfortable and easy. It can be that you see it as your goal, but e.g. I don't want that - but this isn't even relevant. Important is to understand that all truths that we believe in are assumptions (some of them called "facts" which are assumptions commonly shared by many people or in a group) and that they can differ between individuals which means that we perceive reality differently. Objectively describing what reality is is not possible - this is one key aspect of epistemology. "Bad stuff" and "good stuff" has also subjective and normative aspects. What do we perceive as good or bad? It's based on values and a belief system. For a nihilist there's not even "good" or "bad" because those can only be defined with a belief system. Nihilists have a collapsed belief system which says that nothing has inherent value. But the question is: What is the motivation for an individual to become a nihilist? (pro: you don't have to take responsibility and fight for your beliefs, con: it can suck alot to have a meaningless life) Does your belief system enables you to be happy and fulfilled (in your terms)? This is the relevant question I would personally use to assess if a belief system is enabling or hindering you.

Aaargh20318 8y ago
> It depends on your definition of a good life. For me it's simple: an easy, comfortable life with as little contact with human beings as possible. > Objectively describing what reality is is not possible I disagree. I believe there is such a thing as absolute, objective truth. A 'fact' is not a shared assumption, a fact is any statement to which a truth value can be assigned.
- yonoataraxia 8y ago
  To say it in programmer terms: belief systems are functions that assign truth values to assumptions. for example a belief system can look like this: belief_system("earth is flat") -> false belief_system("life is meaningless") -> true Where is the truth value coming from? For a flat earther: They can e.g. use a emotional and individual belief system to determine truth values. For a scientific-minded person: They assign truth values based on scientific evidence (which is a type of assumption). btw: saying there is absolute and objective truth is highly unscientific - science is based on the premise that you can replace theories with another theory if the evidence suggests it. The problem of induction shows the limit of empiric evidence and I hope that most scientists are aligned with this scientific principles (otherwise they aren't scientists by definition). IMHO there is no absolute truth that can be identified as such (I'm not assuming that there isn't objective truth, but merely that we couldn't identify it if there is such a thing). It's like IT security, it is a relative measurement and the relations (in this case) are made by belief systems. There is a consensus that there is no "absolute security" in the security sector. If you accept that there is no absolute security in IT systems and only "reasonable security" (I do not assume that you do assume this), why do you have problems to accept that there might not be a way to recognize the "true truth values"? If you see absolute security as a given you don't have to solve this conflict. I'm merely exercising logic here using my assumptions (and yes, some of them I call "facts", but I see them as something which gets defined by my belief system). your belief: belief_system("there is such a thing as absolute, objective truth") my belief: belief_system("truth as we use it in our daily lives is defined by our belief systems") btw, would love to see discussions using assumptions and then logically deriving conclusions. Especially funny when somebody has conflicting assumptions (logic of explosion).

tomrod 8y ago

Former religious person here. A common analogy drawn upon is a tree. A tree that faces no hardship (bad weather, etc.) looks pretty but has little depth and can't sustain during high winds and such. The converse says that if a tree has survived hard times it probably will survive additional hard times. It's bollocks, of course, and often pacifies folks from working to improve their own personal situations. Nietzche's religious critiques come to mind in this type of situation.

Aaargh20318 8y ago
> A tree that faces no hardship (bad weather, etc.) looks pretty but has little depth and can't sustain during high winds and such. It doesn't need to because it doesn't face hardship.