5 ms·

That’s a bit extreme. Most of this data gets used for targeted advertising. While that sounds (and sometimes is) shady, it also enables a lot of niche companies

That’s a bit extreme. Most of this data gets used for targeted advertising. While that sounds (and sometimes is) shady, it also enables a lot of niche companies that had a much harder time existing before. For example, what’s the point in showing ads for custom quadcopter parts to an 80 year old grandmother who doesn’t know what a quadcopter is? Data should be regulated and protected much more than it currently is. But the idea of banning it entirely would have a lot of negative effects. Let’s be smarter than that.

adamnemecek 8y ago
> lot of niche companies that had a much harder time existing before. Oh the horror.
pacala 8y ago
If I need quadrocopter parts, I'll search for quadrocopter parts. I don't need your ads to push quadrocopter parts on me on the hope that I might be slightly more interested in them than an 80 year old grandmother. I need you to build a good product and display it in a good store.
- Justsignedup 8y ago
  Ads are unsolicited untrusted information. Though sometimes you want to get the word out about a specific thing. But this is where getting people's social circles hearing about something and trying it is important. I definitely see a few needs for advertisement. But mostly down sides IMO.
- ende 8y ago
  This really cuts to the core of the issue. Consumers will naturally seek out the things they wish to buy. Nobody needs to be distracted from their activities to be told what to buy. All advertising should be strictly confined to designated areas specifically intended for consumer searching.
  - tdb7893 8y ago
    There are a lot of movies I went to after I saw an ad for it which I never would have searched for on my own (and I can say the same about restaurants and a couple other peoducts). Consumers aren't going to search for something they don't know exists in the first place
    - wlll 8y ago
      Yeah, but if you hadn't seen those ads, and not watched those movies, would your life really be worse than it is now? > Consumers aren't going to search for something they don't know exists in the first place If a consumer doesn't buy something they don't know exists, does it really matter? Life, at least for me and the people I know, doesn't revolve around finding things to spend money on.
      - oliv__ 8y ago
        The economy does.
        jadedhacker 8y ago
        For now.
        wlll 8y ago
        Perhaps this is because I'm not an American, but my life doesn't revolve around "supporting the economy". The economy is supported when I go round living my life, not the other way round.
        TeMPOraL 8y ago
        Exactly. Also: free market works well when the aggregated signals from customers are honest. Then it allocates resources efficiently. Advertising is all about disrupting this mechanism, injecting and generating fake signals that skew the market.
      - 8y ago
- OzCrimson 8y ago
  I agree! A lot of what's going on with data is the low-cost ease of intimate access to targeted people. Thus, we get constantly pestered and then it's our job to figure out how to get peace from stuff that we didn't ask for. I've had to turn off alerts and miss notifications from friends because marketers have run amok. And we go back to the cost: it's been so doggone cheap that so many marketers have gotten to where they just don't care about being annoying. There should be a higher cost to access me when I'm sitting in my barber's chair. Actually, DON'T contact me when I'm in my barber's chair. Go back to tv commercials, billboards, and snail mail. Put in some effort.
- cm2012 8y ago
  What if you've never heard of a quadcopter and neither have your friends, but there's a high likelihood you'd be into it since you like variable x? Here's a plot that shows marketing channel fit by product type: http://www.kevinlordbarry.com/uploads/3/6/5/4/3654649/edited/graph2.png http://www.kevinlordbarry.com/uploads/3/6/5/4/3654649/edited...
white-flame 8y ago
In my opinion, the advertiser should not know that the current visitor is an 80 year old grandmother in the first place. Just like TV, radio, and magazines before them, advertisers can select which advertisements to put on which sections of websites (or broadly make their decisions on what types of sections they should display on), and individual display requests can and should be de-personalized for privacy measures. Advertisers can still access or determine indicators of demographics for places on the web without individual tracking measures, and measure click-through for various A/B testing for different ads in different contexts. The contents & general audience of a page should determine the ad, not the individual visitor.
mort96 8y ago
The traditional way to advertise niche products is to advertise in places where the relevant audience is. Maybe put ads on RC-related websites or technology-related TV channels, or buy sponsor spots on technology podcasts or YouTube-channels. You don't _need_ huge amounts of information about every Internet-using individual in order to do targeted advertising. Podcasts, which (so far) have mostly been free from extreme privacy-violating ad networks, have been doing this for ages; I regularly hear relevant ads for Ting, Linux Academy and Digital Ocean when listening to Linux-podcasts, or for bone conducting headphones, fancy mesh network routers and domain name registrars when listening to general tech podcasts. I also hear ads for PC hardware and VPNs when watching tech YouTube-videos. The ads YouTube itself chooses for me, on the other hand, are generally completely unnecessary and poorly targeted ads for movies I don't want to see or cars or soda.

adamnemecek 8y ago

> lot of niche companies that had a much harder time existing before. Oh the horror.

pacala 8y ago

If I need quadrocopter parts, I'll search for quadrocopter parts. I don't need your ads to push quadrocopter parts on me on the hope that I might be slightly more interested in them than an 80 year old grandmother. I need you to build a good product and display it in a good store.

Justsignedup 8y ago
Ads are unsolicited untrusted information. Though sometimes you want to get the word out about a specific thing. But this is where getting people's social circles hearing about something and trying it is important. I definitely see a few needs for advertisement. But mostly down sides IMO.
ende 8y ago
This really cuts to the core of the issue. Consumers will naturally seek out the things they wish to buy. Nobody needs to be distracted from their activities to be told what to buy. All advertising should be strictly confined to designated areas specifically intended for consumer searching.
- tdb7893 8y ago
  There are a lot of movies I went to after I saw an ad for it which I never would have searched for on my own (and I can say the same about restaurants and a couple other peoducts). Consumers aren't going to search for something they don't know exists in the first place
  - wlll 8y ago
    Yeah, but if you hadn't seen those ads, and not watched those movies, would your life really be worse than it is now? > Consumers aren't going to search for something they don't know exists in the first place If a consumer doesn't buy something they don't know exists, does it really matter? Life, at least for me and the people I know, doesn't revolve around finding things to spend money on.
    - oliv__ 8y ago
      The economy does.
      - jadedhacker 8y ago
        For now.
      - wlll 8y ago
        Perhaps this is because I'm not an American, but my life doesn't revolve around "supporting the economy". The economy is supported when I go round living my life, not the other way round.
        TeMPOraL 8y ago
        Exactly. Also: free market works well when the aggregated signals from customers are honest. Then it allocates resources efficiently. Advertising is all about disrupting this mechanism, injecting and generating fake signals that skew the market.
    - 8y ago
OzCrimson 8y ago
I agree! A lot of what's going on with data is the low-cost ease of intimate access to targeted people. Thus, we get constantly pestered and then it's our job to figure out how to get peace from stuff that we didn't ask for. I've had to turn off alerts and miss notifications from friends because marketers have run amok. And we go back to the cost: it's been so doggone cheap that so many marketers have gotten to where they just don't care about being annoying. There should be a higher cost to access me when I'm sitting in my barber's chair. Actually, DON'T contact me when I'm in my barber's chair. Go back to tv commercials, billboards, and snail mail. Put in some effort.
cm2012 8y ago
What if you've never heard of a quadcopter and neither have your friends, but there's a high likelihood you'd be into it since you like variable x? Here's a plot that shows marketing channel fit by product type: http://www.kevinlordbarry.com/uploads/3/6/5/4/3654649/edited/graph2.png http://www.kevinlordbarry.com/uploads/3/6/5/4/3654649/edited...

white-flame 8y ago

In my opinion, the advertiser should not know that the current visitor is an 80 year old grandmother in the first place. Just like TV, radio, and magazines before them, advertisers can select which advertisements to put on which sections of websites (or broadly make their decisions on what types of sections they should display on), and individual display requests can and should be de-personalized for privacy measures. Advertisers can still access or determine indicators of demographics for places on the web without individual tracking measures, and measure click-through for various A/B testing for different ads in different contexts. The contents & general audience of a page should determine the ad, not the individual visitor.

mort96 8y ago

The traditional way to advertise niche products is to advertise in places where the relevant audience is. Maybe put ads on RC-related websites or technology-related TV channels, or buy sponsor spots on technology podcasts or YouTube-channels. You don't _need_ huge amounts of information about every Internet-using individual in order to do targeted advertising. Podcasts, which (so far) have mostly been free from extreme privacy-violating ad networks, have been doing this for ages; I regularly hear relevant ads for Ting, Linux Academy and Digital Ocean when listening to Linux-podcasts, or for bone conducting headphones, fancy mesh network routers and domain name registrars when listening to general tech podcasts. I also hear ads for PC hardware and VPNs when watching tech YouTube-videos. The ads YouTube itself chooses for me, on the other hand, are generally completely unnecessary and poorly targeted ads for movies I don't want to see or cars or soda.