5 ms·

Poverty reduction programs, not trashing the planet, is the correct response to that

api 8y ago
That can work to a point, but if environmental policies permanently increase the cost of things like energy then poverty reduction programs must pay that cost. That in turn inflates the cost of poverty reduction programs, making them require increased taxation. This in turn drags down the economy, creating more poverty.
- Vinnl 8y ago
  > That in turn inflates the cost of poverty reduction programs, making them require increased taxation. That, or reducing spending, or increasing taxation income through other investments.
- simion314 8y ago
  Is not cheaper to help only the poor then have the plastic,energy etc cheap for everyone? Seems like the ones that consume and pollute the most will have the most too lose.
  - api 8y ago
    The poor and especially the middle class account for the vast majority of consumption and pollution in aggregate. Per capita the rich consume more, but not as much more as you might think. The typical multi-millionaire or even billionaire does not personally consume 1000X or 1000000X more than your typical member of the middle class. Maybe 10X more at most. Beyond a certain point this is "paper wealth." Diminishing marginal utility of goods and services kicks in pretty hard once you reach the upper middle class to "lower rich" brackets. You just don't get much more value from consuming more because you've hit the value limits of technology and/or human subjective perception. The rich also derive their wealth largely through poor and middle class consumption. They either run industries directly, invest in them, or profit off rents that could not be paid without other industrial activity to subsidize them.
    - simion314 8y ago
      The point was about the poor, middle class should be able to afford the recycling costs. From all the products that were listed the only ones I think could affect poor people would be the car tires, if the prices for this tires would increase, but plastic straws or sticks for baloons costing more won't affect the poor that much.
      - rypskar 8y ago
        They have already started to look for alternatives to plastic and rubber in car tires. http://www.continentaltire.com/news/continental-constructing-tires-dandelions http://www.continentaltire.com/news/continental-constructing...
        simion314 8y ago
        Cool, I hope we will have good ,safe and cheap tires. If the law does not put a bit of pressure we never get this new technology. I was also thinking that it would be good if we got brakes like the racing cars have, those strong breaks could save some lives, I know there is a log of G force but it would be better then an almost instant stop in a wall.
- jri939mcko 8y ago
  The Bible and other nonsense myths used to guide the masses in the past show we don’t need to abide economics to build a rule set for society We could do with a little less fetishizing “economics are physics and the rules of the universe” nonsense The contemporary economy is basically held hostage by a handful of emotional babies and economists measuring within their curated playground How that establishes economic activity they observe as facts of objective reality, I dunno? So who even knows what’s “real” trade and not “gun at head, build us chat bots or work retail cause daddy says so” servitude
- psergeant 8y ago
  If the economy is being boosted by the cost to the environment being ignored, that just means the world is taking on a type of debt.
hartator 8y ago
Being able to buy products that are most cost effective is the only real way we’ve found to be able to reduce poverty.
- simion314 8y ago
  If we factor the recycling costs in this products and implement that recycling then all is fine, the products have the correct price and the recycling also takes place. The problem is when the environmental costs are not included and it must be paid by the next generation. About energy some countries have special prices for the first X KW of energy used for poor families, so it is possible to have the energy prices increased so people would try turning off things they don't need.

api 8y ago

That can work to a point, but if environmental policies permanently increase the cost of things like energy then poverty reduction programs must pay that cost. That in turn inflates the cost of poverty reduction programs, making them require increased taxation. This in turn drags down the economy, creating more poverty.

Vinnl 8y ago
> That in turn inflates the cost of poverty reduction programs, making them require increased taxation. That, or reducing spending, or increasing taxation income through other investments.
simion314 8y ago
Is not cheaper to help only the poor then have the plastic,energy etc cheap for everyone? Seems like the ones that consume and pollute the most will have the most too lose.
- api 8y ago
  The poor and especially the middle class account for the vast majority of consumption and pollution in aggregate. Per capita the rich consume more, but not as much more as you might think. The typical multi-millionaire or even billionaire does not personally consume 1000X or 1000000X more than your typical member of the middle class. Maybe 10X more at most. Beyond a certain point this is "paper wealth." Diminishing marginal utility of goods and services kicks in pretty hard once you reach the upper middle class to "lower rich" brackets. You just don't get much more value from consuming more because you've hit the value limits of technology and/or human subjective perception. The rich also derive their wealth largely through poor and middle class consumption. They either run industries directly, invest in them, or profit off rents that could not be paid without other industrial activity to subsidize them.
  - simion314 8y ago
    The point was about the poor, middle class should be able to afford the recycling costs. From all the products that were listed the only ones I think could affect poor people would be the car tires, if the prices for this tires would increase, but plastic straws or sticks for baloons costing more won't affect the poor that much.
    - rypskar 8y ago
      They have already started to look for alternatives to plastic and rubber in car tires. http://www.continentaltire.com/news/continental-constructing-tires-dandelions http://www.continentaltire.com/news/continental-constructing...
      - simion314 8y ago
        Cool, I hope we will have good ,safe and cheap tires. If the law does not put a bit of pressure we never get this new technology. I was also thinking that it would be good if we got brakes like the racing cars have, those strong breaks could save some lives, I know there is a log of G force but it would be better then an almost instant stop in a wall.
jri939mcko 8y ago
The Bible and other nonsense myths used to guide the masses in the past show we don’t need to abide economics to build a rule set for society We could do with a little less fetishizing “economics are physics and the rules of the universe” nonsense The contemporary economy is basically held hostage by a handful of emotional babies and economists measuring within their curated playground How that establishes economic activity they observe as facts of objective reality, I dunno? So who even knows what’s “real” trade and not “gun at head, build us chat bots or work retail cause daddy says so” servitude
psergeant 8y ago
If the economy is being boosted by the cost to the environment being ignored, that just means the world is taking on a type of debt.

hartator 8y ago

Being able to buy products that are most cost effective is the only real way we’ve found to be able to reduce poverty.

simion314 8y ago
If we factor the recycling costs in this products and implement that recycling then all is fine, the products have the correct price and the recycling also takes place. The problem is when the environmental costs are not included and it must be paid by the next generation. About energy some countries have special prices for the first X KW of energy used for poor families, so it is possible to have the energy prices increased so people would try turning off things they don't need.