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Yes mindset is important. But having run 8 marathons I can tell you wishful thinking is not a substitute for training. You can’t really quantify fitness, there

Yes mindset is important. But having run 8 marathons I can tell you wishful thinking is not a substitute for training. You can’t really quantify fitness, there are too many subtypes (running? swimming? weightlifting?) This study used blood pressure and weight (among others) but those can vary wildly based on genetics and diet, I’m not sure they’re reliable indicators. The point of the article (as I understand it) is that positive thinking can influence your health. Fine. But let’s not get carried away: you’re not going to roll out of bed and complete an Ironman without training just because you think you can. EDIT: Mods have updated the title to better reflect the first underlying study (which focuses on mortality, not fitness). But 1) even with the focus on mortality, it's still hard to correlate PMA and mortality and not control for diet, exercise, history, genetics, etc. and 2) if PMA doesn't correlate w/fitness, it's hard to see how it can make you live longer (i.e., can you be morbidly obese and positive and live longer than an athlete with a bad mental attitude?) PMA is good. But I'm having a hard time believing you're going to live longer -- seems like there are 50 other factors that are more important.

stochastic_monk 8y ago
My Dad, who had done 5 marathons, won the Ironman lottery to participate in the world championship. He still spent a year training all the time to finish it, and not at a competitive time. My point is that you are absolutely right.
giffarage 8y ago
The article focuses on risk of death with regard to fitness instead of an ability to perform in a sport.
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  Yes, you're right. The study is different than what the article says. The article is taking a leap of faith from that study to generalize, so, fair point. But even for that study, I'm a little skeptical of their results. There are so many factors that figure into mortality, it's hard to believe a positive attitude can really be singled out as significant. Diet? Age? Exercise level? Family history? Weight? Where does positive thinking sit on this list? Whether you're using it as a proxy for fitness or mortality I think it's a questionable correlation, IMHO.
raverbashing 8y ago
> used blood pressure and weight (among others) but those can vary wildly based on genetics and diet, I’m not sure they’re reliable indicators. Should be reliable enough You can't claim to be exactly fit if your pressure is 180/120 or if your BMI is high (unless you're obviously an exception - and most of those that complain about BMI aren't)
- Benjamin_Dobell 8y ago
  Blood pressure is useful, but I strongly dislike BMI. My weight hasn't fluctuated by more than 2kg in 10 years. 10 years ago I was playing competitive rugby, basketball and training for the former 3 times a week and was genuinely very fit. Now, I've got a decent amount of fat on me and am no-where near as healthy as I ought to be. Yet my weight and height haven't changed, so neither has my BMI. Nonetheless, I've lost a reasonable amount of muscle and instead put on a lot of fat. On the other hand, my blood pressure definitely has got worse.
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  BMI is only useful for large populations but terrible as a metric for individuals. For starters, it can't distinguish between muscle and fat. So anyone muscular is obese per BMI. More: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bmi-is-a-terrible-measure-of-health/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bmi-is-a-terrible-measu...
  - raverbashing 8y ago
    > So anyone muscular is obese per BMI. And that's why I said > unless you're obviously an exception Most of the time complaining about BMI is just an excuse for overweight individuals If needed body fat can be assessed separately.
  - dtech 8y ago
    Even for large populations BMI is a pretty mediocre metric since it is heavily influenced by length. The formula is kept simple `weight / height^2` to help 19th century doctors. A more accurate growth rate for healthy weight is something like `weight / heigth^2.5` [1] This oversimplification causes standard BMI treshholds to underestimate obesity for short people (<1.6m), and overestimate obesity for tall people (>1.8m). [1] https://people.maths.ox.ac.uk/trefethen/bmi.html https://people.maths.ox.ac.uk/trefethen/bmi.html
wodenokoto 8y ago
I thought capacity for taking in oxygen[1] was a general indicator of fitness. But then again, I haven't looked into this since highschool 15+ years ago. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  What about powerlifters or weightlifters? Super strong. Get winded walking up a flight of stairs. My point is, there is no one universal definition of fitness. The most reliable measure I've heard of is belly fat, which you can measure with a calipers. But you can't wish away belly fat with positive thinking, so I think the writers of this article are taking this study a little too far, IMO.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    Belly fat would be a poor measurement of a lot of powerlifters fitness as well. The article seems to be mixing up "fitness" and "chance of death", which, while they are related, are probably not as directly correlated as they seem to be in the article.
    - ordinaryperson 8y ago
      Yes, the article seems to take liberties from the two studies it quotes. But I also am skeptical of the underlying studies. So many factors in mortality rate I'm having a hard time believing they were able to control for all of those (weight, age, diet, exercise, family history, etc) and isolate "positive thinking."
  - always_good 8y ago
    > What about powerlifters or weightlifters? Super strong. Get winded walking up a flight of stairs. Sounds like a myth people believe about weight lifters.
  - retsibsi 8y ago
    Belly fat sems like a very unreliable proxy too. You can definitely be skinny without being fit in any of the usual senses, and you can have a fair amount of fat while still having good cardio, strength, etc.
azhu 8y ago
There is a difference between wishful thinking and motivation enough to actualize. I agree that one will most likely not roll out of bed and complete a marathon, but do not underestimate the power of belief. If one believes strongly enough, I have no doubt that the human body unencumbered by obesity can complete an ironman with no training. It turns out that fostering and synthesizing such strength of belief requires either a lifetime of devotion to meditation, the usual physical training athletes do (many mental journeys happen in this process as well), or fantastic cosmic circumstance.
matwood 8y ago
Completely agree that in no way would this be a replacement for actual fitness. The point that the mental state of mind has some impact on fitness is important though. First, it makes sense if you think about it because we know mental stress definitely causes unhealthy physical states. Second, a healthy mental state leads to working out which leads to more fitness and healthier mental state, etc... It's a healthy cycle that is all connected, and for many people that first healthy mental state is the hardest part to change.
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  Agreed. It has an impact. And it helps you break through walls in training. But I think the authors of this article, who cite a previous study got a little carried away. They cite a paper where researchers measured cleaning ladies after 4 weeks? You're not going from zero to hero in 4 weeks. How they ate over that period probably had a far larger effect on their overall health than mental positivity.
  - appleiigs 8y ago
    And the lecture probably got them to be more health conscious over that period.
- titzer 8y ago
  > The point that the mental state of mind has some impact on fitness I don't think the study actually supports this; more likely mental state impacts stress hormone levels which change blood pressure, heart rate, and immune system activity. That is not the same as physical fitness.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
donquichotte 8y ago
I am glad you are bringing this up. It's impossible to cheat and skip training. I started running alpine trail (ultra) marathons three years ago, and every time I go for a >40km run in the Alps, the hammer of reality just comes down fast and hard on both mind and body. In the beginning I have grand plans of finishing near the peak of the Gaussian distribution of my age group. After 10km I am cursing myself for not training more. After 20km I am just focusing on finishing, and after 30km on not dying.

stochastic_monk 8y ago

My Dad, who had done 5 marathons, won the Ironman lottery to participate in the world championship. He still spent a year training all the time to finish it, and not at a competitive time. My point is that you are absolutely right.

giffarage 8y ago

The article focuses on risk of death with regard to fitness instead of an ability to perform in a sport.

ordinaryperson 8y ago
Yes, you're right. The study is different than what the article says. The article is taking a leap of faith from that study to generalize, so, fair point. But even for that study, I'm a little skeptical of their results. There are so many factors that figure into mortality, it's hard to believe a positive attitude can really be singled out as significant. Diet? Age? Exercise level? Family history? Weight? Where does positive thinking sit on this list? Whether you're using it as a proxy for fitness or mortality I think it's a questionable correlation, IMHO.

raverbashing 8y ago

> used blood pressure and weight (among others) but those can vary wildly based on genetics and diet, I’m not sure they’re reliable indicators. Should be reliable enough You can't claim to be exactly fit if your pressure is 180/120 or if your BMI is high (unless you're obviously an exception - and most of those that complain about BMI aren't)

Benjamin_Dobell 8y ago
Blood pressure is useful, but I strongly dislike BMI. My weight hasn't fluctuated by more than 2kg in 10 years. 10 years ago I was playing competitive rugby, basketball and training for the former 3 times a week and was genuinely very fit. Now, I've got a decent amount of fat on me and am no-where near as healthy as I ought to be. Yet my weight and height haven't changed, so neither has my BMI. Nonetheless, I've lost a reasonable amount of muscle and instead put on a lot of fat. On the other hand, my blood pressure definitely has got worse.
ordinaryperson 8y ago
BMI is only useful for large populations but terrible as a metric for individuals. For starters, it can't distinguish between muscle and fat. So anyone muscular is obese per BMI. More: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bmi-is-a-terrible-measure-of-health/ https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/bmi-is-a-terrible-measu...
- raverbashing 8y ago
  > So anyone muscular is obese per BMI. And that's why I said > unless you're obviously an exception Most of the time complaining about BMI is just an excuse for overweight individuals If needed body fat can be assessed separately.
- dtech 8y ago
  Even for large populations BMI is a pretty mediocre metric since it is heavily influenced by length. The formula is kept simple `weight / height^2` to help 19th century doctors. A more accurate growth rate for healthy weight is something like `weight / heigth^2.5` [1] This oversimplification causes standard BMI treshholds to underestimate obesity for short people (<1.6m), and overestimate obesity for tall people (>1.8m). [1] https://people.maths.ox.ac.uk/trefethen/bmi.html https://people.maths.ox.ac.uk/trefethen/bmi.html

wodenokoto 8y ago

I thought capacity for taking in oxygen[1] was a general indicator of fitness. But then again, I haven't looked into this since highschool 15+ years ago. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VO2_max

ordinaryperson 8y ago
What about powerlifters or weightlifters? Super strong. Get winded walking up a flight of stairs. My point is, there is no one universal definition of fitness. The most reliable measure I've heard of is belly fat, which you can measure with a calipers. But you can't wish away belly fat with positive thinking, so I think the writers of this article are taking this study a little too far, IMO.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  Belly fat would be a poor measurement of a lot of powerlifters fitness as well. The article seems to be mixing up "fitness" and "chance of death", which, while they are related, are probably not as directly correlated as they seem to be in the article.
  - ordinaryperson 8y ago
    Yes, the article seems to take liberties from the two studies it quotes. But I also am skeptical of the underlying studies. So many factors in mortality rate I'm having a hard time believing they were able to control for all of those (weight, age, diet, exercise, family history, etc) and isolate "positive thinking."
- always_good 8y ago
  > What about powerlifters or weightlifters? Super strong. Get winded walking up a flight of stairs. Sounds like a myth people believe about weight lifters.
- retsibsi 8y ago
  Belly fat sems like a very unreliable proxy too. You can definitely be skinny without being fit in any of the usual senses, and you can have a fair amount of fat while still having good cardio, strength, etc.

azhu 8y ago

There is a difference between wishful thinking and motivation enough to actualize. I agree that one will most likely not roll out of bed and complete a marathon, but do not underestimate the power of belief. If one believes strongly enough, I have no doubt that the human body unencumbered by obesity can complete an ironman with no training. It turns out that fostering and synthesizing such strength of belief requires either a lifetime of devotion to meditation, the usual physical training athletes do (many mental journeys happen in this process as well), or fantastic cosmic circumstance.

matwood 8y ago

Completely agree that in no way would this be a replacement for actual fitness. The point that the mental state of mind has some impact on fitness is important though. First, it makes sense if you think about it because we know mental stress definitely causes unhealthy physical states. Second, a healthy mental state leads to working out which leads to more fitness and healthier mental state, etc... It's a healthy cycle that is all connected, and for many people that first healthy mental state is the hardest part to change.

ordinaryperson 8y ago
Agreed. It has an impact. And it helps you break through walls in training. But I think the authors of this article, who cite a previous study got a little carried away. They cite a paper where researchers measured cleaning ladies after 4 weeks? You're not going from zero to hero in 4 weeks. How they ate over that period probably had a far larger effect on their overall health than mental positivity.
- appleiigs 8y ago
  And the lecture probably got them to be more health conscious over that period.
titzer 8y ago
> The point that the mental state of mind has some impact on fitness I don't think the study actually supports this; more likely mental state impacts stress hormone levels which change blood pressure, heart rate, and immune system activity. That is not the same as physical fitness.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

donquichotte 8y ago

I am glad you are bringing this up. It's impossible to cheat and skip training. I started running alpine trail (ultra) marathons three years ago, and every time I go for a >40km run in the Alps, the hammer of reality just comes down fast and hard on both mind and body. In the beginning I have grand plans of finishing near the peak of the Gaussian distribution of my age group. After 10km I am cursing myself for not training more. After 20km I am just focusing on finishing, and after 30km on not dying.