16 ms·

Unquantified

120 points by jstanley 8y ago

tw1010 8y ago
A lot of unaccounted for psycological effects show themselves from underneath the veil of unknown unknown factors once you shift the tools engineers have developed, like logging and testing, into a different domain, an ecological environment different from the one they evolved out of. The fact that there's a stigma to mentioning that things that are hyped up cause you discomfort only exacerbate the problem. Not everything that worked in engineering is necessarily a good solution to problems in physiology.
Barrin92 8y ago
There's really two big issues with 'quant' mindsets. The first one is a 'if I can't measure it, it doesn't exist' logic. Where people will mistake metrics that are easily accessible with metrics that are meaningful. People who like to take quantified approaches tend to drift towards methods that allow for easy quantification regardless if they're appropriate or not. The second one is, as the saying goes, that 'life is not lived in the aggregate'. Quantified approaches give us general, macro ideas but may easily be less appropriate than subjective or individual experiences if you only care about specific cases (like your own well-being) to begin with. It's not always appropriate to trade case-specific knowledge for general knowledge if all you care about is one case. Related to this is a loss of resolution. Aggregation ignores internal dynamics. The national GDP or corporate performance might mask huge internal divergence which again can result in instability, which then causes second order effects. Those dynamics only really show up in qualitative models, not data.
sewercake 8y ago
I think I largely agree with his reflection(s): easily obtainable metrics to track physical fitness / health often do more harm than good. But I can't help but think that partial quantification of the self could still be extremely useful, it's just that virtually all diet/fitness applications are focused on calorie counting and weight-loss. They should be focused on increasing bodily awareness. How long does it take for food to pass through? How often do you poop? What are those poops like? When you eat X, how do you feel an hour later, two hours later, three hours later? If you begin tracking _these_ kinds of metrics, then you could become aware of how different foods, sleep patterns, etc, affect your mood, and subjective energy levels. This kind of self knowledge -- whose discovery could be aided by some good UX, is fantastic. The only kinds of health applications that seem to take this moderately serious are period tracking apps.
- Ensorceled 8y ago
  I recommend “the plan” by Lyn-Genet Recitas, because it takes a systematic approach to figuring out what foods have bad effects on you personally. I found, for instance, potatoes give me minor gastrointestinal distress and eggs make my girlfriend slightly depressed.
  - lookACamel 8y ago
    >eggs make my girlfriend slightly depressed. Possibly due to the choline content.
    - Bartweiss 8y ago
      Wait, choline as a cause of feeling depressed? This one is totally news to me, can you point me to any more info?
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  A while back, I started tracking some basic notes about my behavior and wellbeing. Mostly I just covered very basic notes on how I'd slept, what/when I'd eaten, what else I'd consumed (i.e. caffeine, theanine, vitamin D, alcohol), and whether/how I'd exercised - plus how I felt at the time. The results were really interesting, and having that subjective value matched with objective context was great for predicting "how will I feel if I do X, Y, and Z today?" I'm sure I was still losing important data by not seeing multi-day effects, gut biome status, or a million other things. But the predictive power was fairly high, and I'm convinced it was better than nothing. I stopped eventually though - because as you say, the tools available are just too clunky for tracking anything other than diet and exercise.
RyJones 8y ago
This puts in to words something I've been struggling with. My Apple Watch gives me enough information that I've gone to see my PCP twice for non problems. However. I've had good reason to pay attention the last few years. I think I'll let go now. https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/04/half-the-person-i-was-before/ https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/04/half-the-person-i-was-be... https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/07/fully-quantified-self-2/ https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/07/fully-quantified-self-2/
woah 8y ago
Wow, I was always worried that I was missing out on all the benefits of quantifying the self. Now it seems that things have come full-circle and my lifestyle is in fact cutting-edge.
- cfadvan 8y ago
  That’s always how fashion/fads work, if you wait long enough you’re cool again. As a bonus you’ll have saved a ton of money and spared yourself untold aggravation.
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    And missed all the cool parties. There's an upside to following fashion, but it rarely has to do anything with the actual merits of that fashion...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - cfadvan 8y ago
      If the metaphorical parties require you to be fashion-obsessed, you missed nothing.
      - TeMPOraL 8y ago
        I wasn't going for metaphorical. I've been to actual parties for e.g. startup people, and just showing up and talking with appropriate individuals won me an unexpected invitation to an expensive Quantified Self event. I didn't go, but I suspect that beyond the conference, there was a party planned too.
        cfadvan 8y ago
        Alright, in that case I can’t honestly disagree with your point, my bad.
        8y ago
jjaredsimpson 8y ago
I think none of this matters except one change: going from fours hours of sleep to eight. I'm interested in QS, but the metrics aren't the ends they are the means. Increased subjective satisfaction is always my goal. When I run I don't track pace but I do track time and I start each run with an idea of what my RPE for that run will be. My goal is to decrease time when RPE is fixed. So some days I run hard and some I don't because I'm not always trying to set a PB. If metrics are guardrails that you are gonna crash into over and over while attempting to change behavior then you won't like QS. Not tracking your bad behavior doesn't make it go away. It just makes you ignorant.
- ovao 8y ago
  > Not tracking your bad behavior doesn't make it go away. It just makes you ignorant. In some sense, ignorance can be bliss, which I think the article hints at. I used to diligently track my workouts, for example, seeking clear and measurable improvement over time. If I could knock out 30 consecutive chin-ups in one session, I expected >= 30 consecutive pull-ups in the next. What I failed to realize is that progress isn't actually made by means of observed improvement -- progress is actually significantly more subtle. And, because it's deeply psychological...fuzzy. At 32 years of age, I've realized that "bad behavior" is symptomatic of the mindset of self, and sometimes necessary. Sometimes my workouts will go very poorly, for example. The quantified self laments those workouts, but the self-accepting self accepts those poorer workouts as an inevitability. Sometimes you simply cannot give it 100%; sometimes you'll fail. Subjective satisfaction, as you put it, is the key to happiness. Do better than you expect in the aggregate and largely ignore the specifics. The specifics only bog you down.
  - fao_ 8y ago
    > At 32 years of age, I've realized that "bad behavior" is symptomatic of the mindset of self, and sometimes necessary. Sometimes my workouts will go very poorly, for example. The quantified self laments those workouts, but the self-accepting self accepts those poorer workouts as an inevitability. Sometimes you simply cannot give it 100%; sometimes you'll fail. Not to mention, that it's statistically impossible for you to infinitely improve in every workout. There are going to be good days and bad days, and if your method of assessing metrics do not take those into account, then the method is worthless. There was a good article about relationships advice for people who hyperfocus on things, and I think it's pertinent here. That basically, just because things have levelled out or not improved, or just because there has been a momentary dip, doesn't mean that that is a negative thing. Any complex system, whether it be the human body, interpersonal relations, or even just water has ups and downs. Sometimes hyperfocusing on those downs, or predicting off those dips can lead you to believe things that are false. Sometimes to get correct information you have to zoom out a little. Not to mention, that expecting 100% of yourself constantly is a surefire way to burn out.
vibrolax 8y ago
The author also chose to emigrate to a minimally quantified society with abundant warmth, natural light balanced with natural dark. "Pura Vida" isn't just a marketing expression in Costa Rica.
swlkr 8y ago
I also got rid of analytics on my websites as well. I figure if I make something people like, someone will tell me thanks or maybe something wrong with it that they want improved
- Tepix 8y ago
  Having a normal access log (possibly with anonymized IP addresses) should provide enough information for most private websites. I can't believe how many sites share their traffic data with Google...
thanatropism 8y ago
"The removal of the alarm clock was also a big change for me. In Austin, I would get up early, go workout, or get up early and work before work (I spent most of my last 2 years in Austin as the CTO at a Series A funded startup and the quiet hours of the morning before my wife and daughter woke up were the only real quiet ours I had all day)... Now I get around eight hours of sleep per night because I prioritize sleep. The sun sets very early here, currently around 18:00, so I’m typically in bed by 21:30 and asleep by 22:00-22:30 and I wake-up between 6-7 the next morning." --- This is someone who no longer lives with his daughter it seems? I don't want to diagnose strangers over five blog posts on the internet, but much of this blog reads like my last few weeks before a mental breakdown. I hope the author is ok/remains ok in the short term.
- gojomo 8y ago
  Huh? He mentions his whole family moved to Costa Rica. The new sleep schedule (8ish hours per night) is more healthy than before. I don’t see what in the excerpt or elsewhere indicates any sort of mental break/crisis.
- rojoroboto 8y ago
  I’m fine. My daughter sleeps on her own through the night (sleep training. it works.) and wakes up around 7am. Almost always after we do. If this is, in fact, a few weeks before a mental breakdown, it would be quite a suprise. I’ll be sure to keep you updated if it happens.
  - thanatropism 8y ago
    Thanks for replying. I've had bad experiences in life; I'm glad you're not having them. (Honest)
pokemongoaway 8y ago
I tried to infect a quantified self company with the same gist about 7y ago. They did quite well at first, but failed to continue innovating in my point of view. Anyway, whenever my ideas were gaining traction the marketing head would convince the CEO that my ideas would be bad for the company. Now I'll never know :P
phantom_oracle 8y ago
> There is a secondary benefit that I’ve addressed in the post nonparticipation in that I also no longer share those intimate details of myself to startups and third parties who are pressured to monetize that data. By going unquantified I’m in complete alignment with nonparticipation in toxic adTech driven panopticon of surveillance capitalism I wonder what epiphany the author had to start/change his opinion on the ad-driven model.
- rojoroboto 8y ago
  This is a fascinating question. I’ll have to think about that one and see if I can figure out the root of it.
AndrewKemendo 8y ago
I don't mean this in a negative way, but measuring something, be it weight, sleep whatever is useless without a goal metric and analysis of how behaviors impact the measurements. The written account linked here is surely incomplete, however anecdotally I find that people use these systems expecting some kind of emergent property to reveal itself and wham bam just like that, you can take steps to fix it. In fact it's the reverse. Set a goal, begin measuring as much as you can, tinker with the inputs, determine how input changes result in measured outputs, iterate to vector measurement toward desired goal, repeat. What I do get from this account is that, in agreement with most anecdotes I have seen, they viewed this measurement system in the same "quick fix" category as other things. Maybe not to such a degree as "24 hour Holywood weight loss" drink but from a similar place. I'm a firm believer in the quantified self concept, but I think it's incredibly hard to actually do. It takes serious discipline and you need to structure your life around it - the same way professional athletes or others do. However if you have clear goals with measurable inputs and really do the work required, it's incredibly powerful.
ssijak 8y ago
These guys thoughts resonate 100% with me. I did the same things (including his previous blog posts that he links) over the past 6-12months and I am very happy with it. It is difficult at first to break hard-wired patterns, but after you do it you feel more alive and in control. Also, you start to see how people live 90% of their lives on autopilot consuming content and stuff that the most competent (and competent is really a very nice word for what they really are) producer put in front of them.
mattsfrey 8y ago
I actually disagree with this heavily. It's feel good, for sure, but if you are looking for measurable results in almost any endeavor, then keeping metrics is almost textbook in increasing the chance of success. "That which gets measured gets improved". Human beings are inherently flawed and subject to natural impulses, adding in objective metrics is a way of taming that. Intuition is not going to help you make linear progress in small increments over a long period of time. Studies of weight loss for example repeatedly show you need to be keeping some metric such as weight or measuring body inches etc to keep on track and be able to guide your decisions each week. "intuitive eating" is a new fad but there is virtually no data to back up that it works at all. EDIT: To add,I speak as somebody who lost 160lbs over two years after years of yo-yoing. I find it very unlikely you would be able to do this without tracking progress and having metrics to guide you.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  > if you are looking for measurable results in almost any endeavor, then keeping metrics is almost textbook This seems like a tautology... What if you aren’t looking for measurable results?
  - ben_w 8y ago
    If you aren’t looking for measurable results, how do you know when you succeed? Perhaps you were already there before you started?
    - michaelt 8y ago
      They might be looking for results that can be detected, but only by subjective, noisy measures. You know, questions like "Am I enjoying a good life with my family?" and "Will I look back on this with pride in the future?" and stuff like that.
      - douglaswlance 8y ago
        You can journal those things and use sentiment analysis to detect if you're moving in the right direction.
daniel-levin 8y ago
I used to be utterly obsessed with QS. I strongly believe that you can only manage what you measure. With that said, I've also found that quantification can have an emotional downside for individuals, especially when the stakes are low. However, this can be controlled or avoided. My suggestion is to passively track these things without using them as a target. That is, I recommend using only derived metrics as decision making aids. It also avoids Goodhart's Law [0]. Measures that become targets lose their value as measures. I also think that it's easy to start fetishizing the data, like becoming obsessed with small changes in weight or contributions on Github. Metrics descend to "mindless dopamine fixes" but this need not be the case. Metrics should inform decisions like "do I quit this expensive gym membership or stick it out?" or "Does a third cup of coffee in the afternoon improve my performance enough to justify the caffeine jitters?" [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
Keloo 8y ago
One can get an idea of how many views the blogpost have depending on the HN thread upvotes (no need for js or analytics) :D
amelius 8y ago
I'd say perhaps limit quantification to say 15 minutes a day. That way you can have the positive effects, and also prevent the negative effects.
yellowboxtenant 8y ago
I agree the following two items have made me happier: 1. Removing my alarm clock and all electronic devices when I sleep 2. Stop measuring all exercise
Pimpus 8y ago
I agree with this post. Rationalizing based only on data can lead to flawed conclusions and bias. Obviously, quantification is useful in many domains, but when it comes to your health then the worst thing you can do is ignore your intuition on the basis of data. I also don’t keep any metrics of my website, not even page hits. It’s a hard sell to other webmasters, but I personally don’t want to start writing for the wrong reasons. I think quantification is responsible for a lot of evils in our world today — and a lot of good too. I’m focusing a lot on where quantification can be applied for the benefit of one’s spirit, rather than one’s greed.
stevenkovar 8y ago
Perhaps the author feels comfortable with their new minimalist approach becasue of his history of quantification—not in spite of it. Data begets intuition. He doesn't need to see the data because he understands the related symptoms of his goals.
- kossae 8y ago
  I think this is the likely reason. For instance, 5 years ago when I'd never tracked a calorie in my life, I had no idea how bad most of the things I was eating were for me, or even how good some of the other things were. Quantifying this over time, as well as similar recording for workouts, got me to the point where if you took the tracking tools away I would still be able to roughly (but accurately) gauge both food intake and fitness progression intuitively.

120 points by jstanley 8y ago

A lot of unaccounted for psycological effects show themselves from underneath the veil of unknown unknown factors once you shift the tools engineers have developed, like logging and testing, into a different domain, an ecological environment different from the one they evolved out of. The fact that there's a stigma to mentioning that things that are hyped up cause you discomfort only exacerbate the problem. Not everything that worked in engineering is necessarily a good solution to problems in physiology.

Barrin92 8y ago

There's really two big issues with 'quant' mindsets. The first one is a 'if I can't measure it, it doesn't exist' logic. Where people will mistake metrics that are easily accessible with metrics that are meaningful. People who like to take quantified approaches tend to drift towards methods that allow for easy quantification regardless if they're appropriate or not. The second one is, as the saying goes, that 'life is not lived in the aggregate'. Quantified approaches give us general, macro ideas but may easily be less appropriate than subjective or individual experiences if you only care about specific cases (like your own well-being) to begin with. It's not always appropriate to trade case-specific knowledge for general knowledge if all you care about is one case. Related to this is a loss of resolution. Aggregation ignores internal dynamics. The national GDP or corporate performance might mask huge internal divergence which again can result in instability, which then causes second order effects. Those dynamics only really show up in qualitative models, not data.

sewercake 8y ago

I think I largely agree with his reflection(s): easily obtainable metrics to track physical fitness / health often do more harm than good. But I can't help but think that partial quantification of the self could still be extremely useful, it's just that virtually all diet/fitness applications are focused on calorie counting and weight-loss. They should be focused on increasing bodily awareness. How long does it take for food to pass through? How often do you poop? What are those poops like? When you eat X, how do you feel an hour later, two hours later, three hours later? If you begin tracking _these_ kinds of metrics, then you could become aware of how different foods, sleep patterns, etc, affect your mood, and subjective energy levels. This kind of self knowledge -- whose discovery could be aided by some good UX, is fantastic. The only kinds of health applications that seem to take this moderately serious are period tracking apps.

Ensorceled 8y ago
I recommend “the plan” by Lyn-Genet Recitas, because it takes a systematic approach to figuring out what foods have bad effects on you personally. I found, for instance, potatoes give me minor gastrointestinal distress and eggs make my girlfriend slightly depressed.
- lookACamel 8y ago
  >eggs make my girlfriend slightly depressed. Possibly due to the choline content.
  - Bartweiss 8y ago
    Wait, choline as a cause of feeling depressed? This one is totally news to me, can you point me to any more info?
Bartweiss 8y ago
A while back, I started tracking some basic notes about my behavior and wellbeing. Mostly I just covered very basic notes on how I'd slept, what/when I'd eaten, what else I'd consumed (i.e. caffeine, theanine, vitamin D, alcohol), and whether/how I'd exercised - plus how I felt at the time. The results were really interesting, and having that subjective value matched with objective context was great for predicting "how will I feel if I do X, Y, and Z today?" I'm sure I was still losing important data by not seeing multi-day effects, gut biome status, or a million other things. But the predictive power was fairly high, and I'm convinced it was better than nothing. I stopped eventually though - because as you say, the tools available are just too clunky for tracking anything other than diet and exercise.

RyJones 8y ago

This puts in to words something I've been struggling with. My Apple Watch gives me enough information that I've gone to see my PCP twice for non problems. However. I've had good reason to pay attention the last few years. I think I'll let go now. https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/04/half-the-person-i-was-before/ https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/04/half-the-person-i-was-be... https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/07/fully-quantified-self-2/ https://blog.ryjones.org/2018/05/07/fully-quantified-self-2/

woah 8y ago

Wow, I was always worried that I was missing out on all the benefits of quantifying the self. Now it seems that things have come full-circle and my lifestyle is in fact cutting-edge.

cfadvan 8y ago
That’s always how fashion/fads work, if you wait long enough you’re cool again. As a bonus you’ll have saved a ton of money and spared yourself untold aggravation.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  And missed all the cool parties. There's an upside to following fashion, but it rarely has to do anything with the actual merits of that fashion...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - cfadvan 8y ago
    If the metaphorical parties require you to be fashion-obsessed, you missed nothing.
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      I wasn't going for metaphorical. I've been to actual parties for e.g. startup people, and just showing up and talking with appropriate individuals won me an unexpected invitation to an expensive Quantified Self event. I didn't go, but I suspect that beyond the conference, there was a party planned too.
      - cfadvan 8y ago
        Alright, in that case I can’t honestly disagree with your point, my bad.
      - 8y ago

jjaredsimpson 8y ago

I think none of this matters except one change: going from fours hours of sleep to eight. I'm interested in QS, but the metrics aren't the ends they are the means. Increased subjective satisfaction is always my goal. When I run I don't track pace but I do track time and I start each run with an idea of what my RPE for that run will be. My goal is to decrease time when RPE is fixed. So some days I run hard and some I don't because I'm not always trying to set a PB. If metrics are guardrails that you are gonna crash into over and over while attempting to change behavior then you won't like QS. Not tracking your bad behavior doesn't make it go away. It just makes you ignorant.

ovao 8y ago
> Not tracking your bad behavior doesn't make it go away. It just makes you ignorant. In some sense, ignorance can be bliss, which I think the article hints at. I used to diligently track my workouts, for example, seeking clear and measurable improvement over time. If I could knock out 30 consecutive chin-ups in one session, I expected >= 30 consecutive pull-ups in the next. What I failed to realize is that progress isn't actually made by means of observed improvement -- progress is actually significantly more subtle. And, because it's deeply psychological...fuzzy. At 32 years of age, I've realized that "bad behavior" is symptomatic of the mindset of self, and sometimes necessary. Sometimes my workouts will go very poorly, for example. The quantified self laments those workouts, but the self-accepting self accepts those poorer workouts as an inevitability. Sometimes you simply cannot give it 100%; sometimes you'll fail. Subjective satisfaction, as you put it, is the key to happiness. Do better than you expect in the aggregate and largely ignore the specifics. The specifics only bog you down.
- fao_ 8y ago
  > At 32 years of age, I've realized that "bad behavior" is symptomatic of the mindset of self, and sometimes necessary. Sometimes my workouts will go very poorly, for example. The quantified self laments those workouts, but the self-accepting self accepts those poorer workouts as an inevitability. Sometimes you simply cannot give it 100%; sometimes you'll fail. Not to mention, that it's statistically impossible for you to infinitely improve in every workout. There are going to be good days and bad days, and if your method of assessing metrics do not take those into account, then the method is worthless. There was a good article about relationships advice for people who hyperfocus on things, and I think it's pertinent here. That basically, just because things have levelled out or not improved, or just because there has been a momentary dip, doesn't mean that that is a negative thing. Any complex system, whether it be the human body, interpersonal relations, or even just water has ups and downs. Sometimes hyperfocusing on those downs, or predicting off those dips can lead you to believe things that are false. Sometimes to get correct information you have to zoom out a little. Not to mention, that expecting 100% of yourself constantly is a surefire way to burn out.

vibrolax 8y ago

The author also chose to emigrate to a minimally quantified society with abundant warmth, natural light balanced with natural dark. "Pura Vida" isn't just a marketing expression in Costa Rica.

swlkr 8y ago

I also got rid of analytics on my websites as well. I figure if I make something people like, someone will tell me thanks or maybe something wrong with it that they want improved

Tepix 8y ago
Having a normal access log (possibly with anonymized IP addresses) should provide enough information for most private websites. I can't believe how many sites share their traffic data with Google...

thanatropism 8y ago

"The removal of the alarm clock was also a big change for me. In Austin, I would get up early, go workout, or get up early and work before work (I spent most of my last 2 years in Austin as the CTO at a Series A funded startup and the quiet hours of the morning before my wife and daughter woke up were the only real quiet ours I had all day)... Now I get around eight hours of sleep per night because I prioritize sleep. The sun sets very early here, currently around 18:00, so I’m typically in bed by 21:30 and asleep by 22:00-22:30 and I wake-up between 6-7 the next morning." --- This is someone who no longer lives with his daughter it seems? I don't want to diagnose strangers over five blog posts on the internet, but much of this blog reads like my last few weeks before a mental breakdown. I hope the author is ok/remains ok in the short term.

gojomo 8y ago
Huh? He mentions his whole family moved to Costa Rica. The new sleep schedule (8ish hours per night) is more healthy than before. I don’t see what in the excerpt or elsewhere indicates any sort of mental break/crisis.
rojoroboto 8y ago
I’m fine. My daughter sleeps on her own through the night (sleep training. it works.) and wakes up around 7am. Almost always after we do. If this is, in fact, a few weeks before a mental breakdown, it would be quite a suprise. I’ll be sure to keep you updated if it happens.
- thanatropism 8y ago
  Thanks for replying. I've had bad experiences in life; I'm glad you're not having them. (Honest)

pokemongoaway 8y ago

I tried to infect a quantified self company with the same gist about 7y ago. They did quite well at first, but failed to continue innovating in my point of view. Anyway, whenever my ideas were gaining traction the marketing head would convince the CEO that my ideas would be bad for the company. Now I'll never know :P

phantom_oracle 8y ago

> There is a secondary benefit that I’ve addressed in the post nonparticipation in that I also no longer share those intimate details of myself to startups and third parties who are pressured to monetize that data. By going unquantified I’m in complete alignment with nonparticipation in toxic adTech driven panopticon of surveillance capitalism I wonder what epiphany the author had to start/change his opinion on the ad-driven model.

rojoroboto 8y ago
This is a fascinating question. I’ll have to think about that one and see if I can figure out the root of it.

AndrewKemendo 8y ago

I don't mean this in a negative way, but measuring something, be it weight, sleep whatever is useless without a goal metric and analysis of how behaviors impact the measurements. The written account linked here is surely incomplete, however anecdotally I find that people use these systems expecting some kind of emergent property to reveal itself and wham bam just like that, you can take steps to fix it. In fact it's the reverse. Set a goal, begin measuring as much as you can, tinker with the inputs, determine how input changes result in measured outputs, iterate to vector measurement toward desired goal, repeat. What I do get from this account is that, in agreement with most anecdotes I have seen, they viewed this measurement system in the same "quick fix" category as other things. Maybe not to such a degree as "24 hour Holywood weight loss" drink but from a similar place. I'm a firm believer in the quantified self concept, but I think it's incredibly hard to actually do. It takes serious discipline and you need to structure your life around it - the same way professional athletes or others do. However if you have clear goals with measurable inputs and really do the work required, it's incredibly powerful.

ssijak 8y ago

These guys thoughts resonate 100% with me. I did the same things (including his previous blog posts that he links) over the past 6-12months and I am very happy with it. It is difficult at first to break hard-wired patterns, but after you do it you feel more alive and in control. Also, you start to see how people live 90% of their lives on autopilot consuming content and stuff that the most competent (and competent is really a very nice word for what they really are) producer put in front of them.

mattsfrey 8y ago

I actually disagree with this heavily. It's feel good, for sure, but if you are looking for measurable results in almost any endeavor, then keeping metrics is almost textbook in increasing the chance of success. "That which gets measured gets improved". Human beings are inherently flawed and subject to natural impulses, adding in objective metrics is a way of taming that. Intuition is not going to help you make linear progress in small increments over a long period of time. Studies of weight loss for example repeatedly show you need to be keeping some metric such as weight or measuring body inches etc to keep on track and be able to guide your decisions each week. "intuitive eating" is a new fad but there is virtually no data to back up that it works at all. EDIT: To add,I speak as somebody who lost 160lbs over two years after years of yo-yoing. I find it very unlikely you would be able to do this without tracking progress and having metrics to guide you.

jacobolus 8y ago
> if you are looking for measurable results in almost any endeavor, then keeping metrics is almost textbook This seems like a tautology... What if you aren’t looking for measurable results?
- ben_w 8y ago
  If you aren’t looking for measurable results, how do you know when you succeed? Perhaps you were already there before you started?
  - michaelt 8y ago
    They might be looking for results that can be detected, but only by subjective, noisy measures. You know, questions like "Am I enjoying a good life with my family?" and "Will I look back on this with pride in the future?" and stuff like that.
    - douglaswlance 8y ago
      You can journal those things and use sentiment analysis to detect if you're moving in the right direction.

daniel-levin 8y ago

I used to be utterly obsessed with QS. I strongly believe that you can only manage what you measure. With that said, I've also found that quantification can have an emotional downside for individuals, especially when the stakes are low. However, this can be controlled or avoided. My suggestion is to passively track these things without using them as a target. That is, I recommend using only derived metrics as decision making aids. It also avoids Goodhart's Law [0]. Measures that become targets lose their value as measures. I also think that it's easy to start fetishizing the data, like becoming obsessed with small changes in weight or contributions on Github. Metrics descend to "mindless dopamine fixes" but this need not be the case. Metrics should inform decisions like "do I quit this expensive gym membership or stick it out?" or "Does a third cup of coffee in the afternoon improve my performance enough to justify the caffeine jitters?" [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law

Keloo 8y ago

One can get an idea of how many views the blogpost have depending on the HN thread upvotes (no need for js or analytics) :D

amelius 8y ago

I'd say perhaps limit quantification to say 15 minutes a day. That way you can have the positive effects, and also prevent the negative effects.

yellowboxtenant 8y ago

I agree the following two items have made me happier: 1. Removing my alarm clock and all electronic devices when I sleep 2. Stop measuring all exercise

Pimpus 8y ago

I agree with this post. Rationalizing based only on data can lead to flawed conclusions and bias. Obviously, quantification is useful in many domains, but when it comes to your health then the worst thing you can do is ignore your intuition on the basis of data. I also don’t keep any metrics of my website, not even page hits. It’s a hard sell to other webmasters, but I personally don’t want to start writing for the wrong reasons. I think quantification is responsible for a lot of evils in our world today — and a lot of good too. I’m focusing a lot on where quantification can be applied for the benefit of one’s spirit, rather than one’s greed.

stevenkovar 8y ago

Perhaps the author feels comfortable with their new minimalist approach becasue of his history of quantification—not in spite of it. Data begets intuition. He doesn't need to see the data because he understands the related symptoms of his goals.

kossae 8y ago
I think this is the likely reason. For instance, 5 years ago when I'd never tracked a calorie in my life, I had no idea how bad most of the things I was eating were for me, or even how good some of the other things were. Quantifying this over time, as well as similar recording for workouts, got me to the point where if you took the tracking tools away I would still be able to roughly (but accurately) gauge both food intake and fitness progression intuitively.