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I am not suggesting that Toshiba (or other tech fossils) has the right culture when it comes to dealing with its engineering talent .. BUT .. If a company is de

I am not suggesting that Toshiba (or other tech fossils) has the right culture when it comes to dealing with its engineering talent .. BUT .. If a company is de-risking the process of inventing/commercializing a new solution for its engineers, then they are entitled to the IP. "A team led by Masuoka paved the way for the practical application of flash memory. The team was small when it was created in the 1980s, with an annual budget in the hundreds of thousands of dollars." Asking for a bonus as an engineer for doing your job well is like begging for tips for waiting tables! If you don't think you are being compensated well for your skillset and you can get a better deal elsewhere then quit! If one thinks they have a great idea that would be incredibly profitable, they should quit their job and develop it on their own dime. I have a background in micro/nanofabrication and highly doubt that Mr. Masuoka could have done what he did in his garage, without the state of the art fab technology available at Toshiba at the time. A piece of advice to startup founders, always ALWAYS have a "propriety rights agreement" in place with whomever you work (contractors, employees, interns), detailing the ownership status of the IP created as a result of the collaboration. Without one, this could be a potential show-stopper later on when you are looking for outside investments and going through due diligence.

chris_wot 8y ago
Except that as an engineer, you can stick with improving or enhancing existing processes, or aim to do something utterly revolutionary. Either way, you’ll be doing your job. Those who make a multi-billion dollar division most definitely should be very well compensated. The CEO sure is. Without talent like Masuoka, it really wouldn’t matter that there is advanced fab technology. You need skilled and talented people to use those things in creative ways.
adrianN 8y ago
Quitting is culturally not very well accepted in Japan. The expectation is that you work for the same company your whole career and in turn the company takes care of you.
- digi_owl 8y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_%28Japanese%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_%28Japanese%29
alkonaut 8y ago
Credit doesn’t need to be monetary. It’s the same when a team of developers develop a product that (say) wins awards and a group of managers collect the prize at a fancy gala with no developer present. If you want more money you can just find a better offer. But some times you just want a fair share of credit. I realize my employer might own the IP - but if I make some breakthrough making billions for my employer they could e.g give me a nice diploma in a plastic frame, or have me speak 30 minutes at an internal event about the discovery. I think these things are often forgotten. It’s very easy for a manager to send an email saying “Bob’s new feature landed us a contract worth 10M! Great job Bob and everyone else”.
- cuddlypsycho 8y ago
  > if I make some breakthrough making billions for my employer That is a completely hypothetical situation and always never happens in the real world. Billion dollar ideas take many years to develop and many more failed attempts to successfully commercialize with lots of highly skilled individuals contributing to the project. In a well-run company, nobody is irreplaceable. Research is always incremental with everyone adding a little bit to the work done by their predecessors. Breakthroughs do not happen in a vacuum. As the article mentions: "But Masuoka was not around to enjoy that success. He left Toshiba in 1994, before commercial production of the chips got rolling. A decade later, Masuoka filed a lawsuit against Toshiba, demanding 1 billion yen in compensation for his work in developing flash memory." Turns out Toshiba got along just fine after Masuka rage quit. Do you think if the technology failed (which happens all the time) Musaka would come back a decade later to ask for ¥1bn? The only thing that is rewarded in business is RISK. The founders who quit their cushy jobs to start a company out of their garage or the early stage investor who took a chance on this untested and unproven venture and put their capital at risk are the true movers and shakers. If you are not putting your time and capital at risk you should not expect to be making billions of $. <Ideas are cheap .. implementation is everything>
ckocagil 8y ago
Since you don't agree with the ethical side, think about it this way: if you're not known in the industry for paying bonuses for successful projects and inventions, why should any brilliant engineer look forward to work for you? Not to mention that there will be no motivation among your employees to perform more than the absolute minimum work required to keep their job. Consider whether you would like to own 80% of a failing company or 30% of a widely successful one.
- Xylakant 8y ago
  > Not to mention that there will be no motivation among your employees to perform more than the absolute minimum work required to keep their job. If that is the reason you pay a bonus, then you already lost. People will just do the minimum required to achieve he bonus requirements and will not keep the companies interest in mind. I’ve seen places where people prioritized stuff that was no longer in the companies interest, but made them eligible for a bonus. You could just as well fold the bonus into the fixed salary and be better off in most cases.
  - tssva 8y ago
    If the requirements to acheive their bonus isn't aligned with the best interests of the company that is a failure of the company and not the employee.
    - Xylakant 8y ago
      It’s practically impossible to guarantee the alignment unless the bonus is a flat out share of the profits or paid after an employee has performed in an extraordinary fashion without any pre-written bonus agreement. But any kind of variable payment agreement might be in perfect alignment with the companies goals at its inception by runs a substantial risk of loosing the alignment over time. Company goals change over time. It’s totally ok if you feel like a bonus should be paid to an employee for achieving something special, but if your employees do not go beyond the bare minimum that keeps them their job, you’re in a kind of trouble that a bonus payment cannot fix.
    - 8y ago
barrkel 8y ago
By the same logic, CEOs shouldn't be paid much, since they can't create much value themselves, they can only leverage other people's work. If they want to be paid well, they should strike out on their own and do stuff themselves.
- gaius 8y ago
  The CEO, unless they are also the founder, is just an employee too. They are not a risk-taker or an innovator, they are just a manager. Everyone forgets that. Maybe they could be paid 10x as much as an entry-level employer but 100 or 500 or 1000x is insane
  - lordnacho 8y ago
    That's right. People also seem to come up with the point that the manager can make a huge difference to the company, but they forget that can also mean a huge negative difference. Ordinary employees tend not to be able to destroy a company on their own.
    - slededit 8y ago
      Wouldn't that imply you should be far more careful and selective with your choice of CEO since they can do much more damage? If anything I'd use this as an argument to pay as much as you can afford for the "best". Anything less poses significant risk of damage to the company.
      - gaius 8y ago
        If there’s a correlation between CEO pay and company performance it’s yet to be discovered.
      - lordnacho 8y ago
        Depends on how that tradeoff works. If you wanted to push up CEO salaries, certainly. But you could as well see that recruitment due diligence is of limited power.

chris_wot 8y ago

Except that as an engineer, you can stick with improving or enhancing existing processes, or aim to do something utterly revolutionary. Either way, you’ll be doing your job. Those who make a multi-billion dollar division most definitely should be very well compensated. The CEO sure is. Without talent like Masuoka, it really wouldn’t matter that there is advanced fab technology. You need skilled and talented people to use those things in creative ways.

adrianN 8y ago

Quitting is culturally not very well accepted in Japan. The expectation is that you work for the same company your whole career and in turn the company takes care of you.

digi_owl 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_%28Japanese%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giri_%28Japanese%29

alkonaut 8y ago

Credit doesn’t need to be monetary. It’s the same when a team of developers develop a product that (say) wins awards and a group of managers collect the prize at a fancy gala with no developer present. If you want more money you can just find a better offer. But some times you just want a fair share of credit. I realize my employer might own the IP - but if I make some breakthrough making billions for my employer they could e.g give me a nice diploma in a plastic frame, or have me speak 30 minutes at an internal event about the discovery. I think these things are often forgotten. It’s very easy for a manager to send an email saying “Bob’s new feature landed us a contract worth 10M! Great job Bob and everyone else”.

cuddlypsycho 8y ago
> if I make some breakthrough making billions for my employer That is a completely hypothetical situation and always never happens in the real world. Billion dollar ideas take many years to develop and many more failed attempts to successfully commercialize with lots of highly skilled individuals contributing to the project. In a well-run company, nobody is irreplaceable. Research is always incremental with everyone adding a little bit to the work done by their predecessors. Breakthroughs do not happen in a vacuum. As the article mentions: "But Masuoka was not around to enjoy that success. He left Toshiba in 1994, before commercial production of the chips got rolling. A decade later, Masuoka filed a lawsuit against Toshiba, demanding 1 billion yen in compensation for his work in developing flash memory." Turns out Toshiba got along just fine after Masuka rage quit. Do you think if the technology failed (which happens all the time) Musaka would come back a decade later to ask for ¥1bn? The only thing that is rewarded in business is RISK. The founders who quit their cushy jobs to start a company out of their garage or the early stage investor who took a chance on this untested and unproven venture and put their capital at risk are the true movers and shakers. If you are not putting your time and capital at risk you should not expect to be making billions of $. <Ideas are cheap .. implementation is everything>

ckocagil 8y ago

Since you don't agree with the ethical side, think about it this way: if you're not known in the industry for paying bonuses for successful projects and inventions, why should any brilliant engineer look forward to work for you? Not to mention that there will be no motivation among your employees to perform more than the absolute minimum work required to keep their job. Consider whether you would like to own 80% of a failing company or 30% of a widely successful one.

Xylakant 8y ago
> Not to mention that there will be no motivation among your employees to perform more than the absolute minimum work required to keep their job. If that is the reason you pay a bonus, then you already lost. People will just do the minimum required to achieve he bonus requirements and will not keep the companies interest in mind. I’ve seen places where people prioritized stuff that was no longer in the companies interest, but made them eligible for a bonus. You could just as well fold the bonus into the fixed salary and be better off in most cases.
- tssva 8y ago
  If the requirements to acheive their bonus isn't aligned with the best interests of the company that is a failure of the company and not the employee.
  - Xylakant 8y ago
    It’s practically impossible to guarantee the alignment unless the bonus is a flat out share of the profits or paid after an employee has performed in an extraordinary fashion without any pre-written bonus agreement. But any kind of variable payment agreement might be in perfect alignment with the companies goals at its inception by runs a substantial risk of loosing the alignment over time. Company goals change over time. It’s totally ok if you feel like a bonus should be paid to an employee for achieving something special, but if your employees do not go beyond the bare minimum that keeps them their job, you’re in a kind of trouble that a bonus payment cannot fix.
  - 8y ago

barrkel 8y ago

By the same logic, CEOs shouldn't be paid much, since they can't create much value themselves, they can only leverage other people's work. If they want to be paid well, they should strike out on their own and do stuff themselves.

gaius 8y ago
The CEO, unless they are also the founder, is just an employee too. They are not a risk-taker or an innovator, they are just a manager. Everyone forgets that. Maybe they could be paid 10x as much as an entry-level employer but 100 or 500 or 1000x is insane
- lordnacho 8y ago
  That's right. People also seem to come up with the point that the manager can make a huge difference to the company, but they forget that can also mean a huge negative difference. Ordinary employees tend not to be able to destroy a company on their own.
  - slededit 8y ago
    Wouldn't that imply you should be far more careful and selective with your choice of CEO since they can do much more damage? If anything I'd use this as an argument to pay as much as you can afford for the "best". Anything less poses significant risk of damage to the company.
    - gaius 8y ago
      If there’s a correlation between CEO pay and company performance it’s yet to be discovered.
    - lordnacho 8y ago
      Depends on how that tradeoff works. If you wanted to push up CEO salaries, certainly. But you could as well see that recruitment due diligence is of limited power.