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> the general public over there seems to have drunk the Kool Aid Seriously? Comparing privacy regulations with blithely following a cult leader into mass suici

> the general public over there seems to have drunk the Kool Aid Seriously? Comparing privacy regulations with blithely following a cult leader into mass suicide? Aside from a few emails asking for permission to keep sending newsletters and announcing new privacy policies being mildly annoying, most EU citizens just gained a few basic rights without any significant downsides.

downandout 8y ago
I deleted that part of the comment almost as soon as I posted it, you must have somehow gotten that line when you accessed the page. However, the comparison isn't wrong. Convincing 500 million people to get on board with an initiative that will forever slow down the pace of innovation in your country, get you locked out of a large percentage of the Internet because your data (including your IP address) is radioactive, kill many existing businesses inside your own borders, and stop many others from ever being formed, is a difficult thing to do. It's definitely a feat worthy of the Kool Aid reference.
- snovv_crash 8y ago
  It slows down the innovation in a small subset of leeches which were taking advantage of new technology to abuse the citizens and residents of the EU. Cry me a river.
  - downandout 8y ago
    This comment is a perfect example of what I'm talking about when I say that you people have drunk the Kool Aid. What you typed above seems to be the party line - those complaining are evil, there are no downsides to it, etc. Sounds awfully cultish, and it also happens to be wrong. The reality is that startup investment in the EU will shrink across the board because of the risks imposed by the GDPR. Additionally, any business that planned to use advertising as its revenue model probably shouldn't bother even starting up in the EU. I'm not talking about ad tech companies alone - I'm talking about publishers, news sites, social networks, companies that want to make mobile games, etc. The GDPR also outlaws most machine learning applications, so that whole industry is toast over there. It's not just a "small subset of leeches". I know that's the party line, and is probably what the PR campaign over there has been saying, but that simply isn't the case.
    - DanBC 8y ago
      > The reality is that startup investment in the EU will shrink across the board because of the risks imposed by the GDPR. There are no additional risks imposed by GDPR; all of those risks already exist in other privacy directives. >The GDPR also outlaws most machine learning applications, Can you point to the specific bit of GDPR that outlaws machine learning?
      - downandout 8y ago
        Can you point to the specific bit of GDPR that outlaws machine learning? Here's a whole article on the subject [1] and HN discussion thread [2] . Any machine learning application that utilizes automated decision making - which is the entire point of machine learning - is forbidden under the GDPR. This can be overcome with explicit consent for that specific application of ML, but getting that in most circumstances will be a low percentage shot. There are no additional risks imposed by GDPR; all of those risks already exist in other privacy directives. Fines of up to 20 million EUR are a significant and new risk. [1] https://www.oreilly.com/ideas/how-will-the-gdpr-impact-machine-learning https://www.oreilly.com/ideas/how-will-the-gdpr-impact-machi... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17138354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17138354
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        kilburn 8y ago
        Can you point out some examples of machine learning usages where: (a) they are clearly beneficial for the users; (b) it wasn't forbidden before; and (c) it is very hard to get user's consent for them. I'm going to point out some counter-examples: - One of the first machine learning stories around was movie recommendation. Under GDPR, when you click the "Recommended for me" link in your typical movie recommender, they now have to show you a page that says something on the lines of: > UberRecommender needs to automatically process your previous ratings/view history/whatever data to make you good recommendations. We will find users with similar taste to yours, recommend movies they have liked to you and vice-versa. Click on "I agree" to continue, or "I don't agree" to disable this functionality for your account (you may change this preference later on in your settings page). It doesn't seem too difficult to get people to click that "I agree" button, does it? - Machine learning applied to medical diagnosis/early detection/etc. This usage was already heavily regulated (at least in the EU). So much that I'm pretty sure the GDPR does not change anything in that space.
- jeena 8y ago
  So in your opinion the only way to not slow down innovation, is to missuse peoples private data by ad-companies which don't even produce anything valuable?
  - downandout 8y ago
    See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17148781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17148781 for my reply to comments of this nature.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - perl4ever 8y ago
      I looked at that and noticed a quote I feel is salient: "The GDPR isn't vastly different to the old Data Protection Directive, which has been in force since 1997. The panic over GDPR suggests that a lot of companies had simply been ignoring the DPD. If a bit of bullying is required to get businesses to obey the law, then so be it." (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17149581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17149581) This rings true to me. I do have a strong suspicion, as an American who's worked for an American multi-national at a low level, that people have been ignoring the existing requirements for dealing with EU data properly. For years. The flip side of all the wailing about heavy handed regulation is that business people will not obey something that isn't enforced. And then feel it is some sort of natural right to go on that way.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - sbov 8y ago
        > The flip side of all the wailing about heavy handed regulation is that business people will not obey something that isn't enforced. And then feel it is some sort of natural right to go on that way. Business people aren't special - this is true of all people. Consider the wailing that would occur if police actually enforced speed limits.
- gaius 8y ago
  forever slow down the pace of innovation in your country On the contrary, since we’ll be wasting so much less time than countries still addicted to the attention economy, we’ll run rings around them in terms of productivity
- wruza 8y ago
  You can always cancel any human-oriented law and get even more progress. Look where most of the [inhuman] progress was done: wars, henocide, communism. s: Imagine how many downsides we could experience by preventing big wars and ideologies of last century, oh my /s. Personally I’m glad that at least EU citizens can state where them lines should be drawn.
  - jeena 8y ago
    Wait, Communism as in "a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state."? Or did you mean Stalinism?
    - wruza 8y ago
      You’re right, I just used a ‘common’ term.
Kiro 8y ago
HN feels like a cult. If you raise even the tiniest objection or critique against GDPR you get downvoted into oblivion. I've never seen so much one-sided hate and bullying on here. For me it's very clear that while GDPR has many good things, it ís disasterous to some companies, which I really don't like and question myself whether it's worth it.
- piaste 8y ago
  Really? HN is the only website I frequent where there is any significant opposition to the GDPR. All social media I frequent, all general-interested news sites I read are universally happy about a crackdown on ads and personal data selling. They joke about the deluge of privacy policy updates, but the jokes definitely make fun of the companies and not of the law. Think it has anything to do with the HN crowd consisting disproportionately of the tiny minority of the workforce who make a living out of exactly the kind of behavior the GDPR wants to restrain?
  - usrusr 8y ago
    > They joke about the deluge of privacy policy updates, but the jokes definitely make fun of the companies and not of the law. And the best jokes where made by those who still have personal memories of the y2k scare. Did you remember to stockpile cash and food?
- kuschku 8y ago
  Privacy is a basic right with constitutional protection that many people fought and died for. Showing bullshit ads isn’t.
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  It's only "disastrous" to bottom-feeding companies with terrible business models.
  - kasey_junk 8y ago
    Like google.
freeflight 8y ago
> most EU citizens just gained a few basic rights without any significant downsides It's actually quite liberating, yesterday I made Twitter delete a whole bunch of contacts they got off my phone.
- briandear 8y ago
  You made them?
IIAOPSW 8y ago
"drink the kool aid" is a fairly common figure of speech and is rarely meant as a literal comparison to Jones town.

downandout 8y ago

I deleted that part of the comment almost as soon as I posted it, you must have somehow gotten that line when you accessed the page. However, the comparison isn't wrong. Convincing 500 million people to get on board with an initiative that will forever slow down the pace of innovation in your country, get you locked out of a large percentage of the Internet because your data (including your IP address) is radioactive, kill many existing businesses inside your own borders, and stop many others from ever being formed, is a difficult thing to do. It's definitely a feat worthy of the Kool Aid reference.

snovv_crash 8y ago
It slows down the innovation in a small subset of leeches which were taking advantage of new technology to abuse the citizens and residents of the EU. Cry me a river.
- downandout 8y ago
  This comment is a perfect example of what I'm talking about when I say that you people have drunk the Kool Aid. What you typed above seems to be the party line - those complaining are evil, there are no downsides to it, etc. Sounds awfully cultish, and it also happens to be wrong. The reality is that startup investment in the EU will shrink across the board because of the risks imposed by the GDPR. Additionally, any business that planned to use advertising as its revenue model probably shouldn't bother even starting up in the EU. I'm not talking about ad tech companies alone - I'm talking about publishers, news sites, social networks, companies that want to make mobile games, etc. The GDPR also outlaws most machine learning applications, so that whole industry is toast over there. It's not just a "small subset of leeches". I know that's the party line, and is probably what the PR campaign over there has been saying, but that simply isn't the case.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    > The reality is that startup investment in the EU will shrink across the board because of the risks imposed by the GDPR. There are no additional risks imposed by GDPR; all of those risks already exist in other privacy directives. >The GDPR also outlaws most machine learning applications, Can you point to the specific bit of GDPR that outlaws machine learning?
    - downandout 8y ago
      Can you point to the specific bit of GDPR that outlaws machine learning? Here's a whole article on the subject [1] and HN discussion thread [2] . Any machine learning application that utilizes automated decision making - which is the entire point of machine learning - is forbidden under the GDPR. This can be overcome with explicit consent for that specific application of ML, but getting that in most circumstances will be a low percentage shot. There are no additional risks imposed by GDPR; all of those risks already exist in other privacy directives. Fines of up to 20 million EUR are a significant and new risk. [1] https://www.oreilly.com/ideas/how-will-the-gdpr-impact-machine-learning https://www.oreilly.com/ideas/how-will-the-gdpr-impact-machi... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17138354 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17138354
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - kilburn 8y ago
        Can you point out some examples of machine learning usages where: (a) they are clearly beneficial for the users; (b) it wasn't forbidden before; and (c) it is very hard to get user's consent for them. I'm going to point out some counter-examples: - One of the first machine learning stories around was movie recommendation. Under GDPR, when you click the "Recommended for me" link in your typical movie recommender, they now have to show you a page that says something on the lines of: > UberRecommender needs to automatically process your previous ratings/view history/whatever data to make you good recommendations. We will find users with similar taste to yours, recommend movies they have liked to you and vice-versa. Click on "I agree" to continue, or "I don't agree" to disable this functionality for your account (you may change this preference later on in your settings page). It doesn't seem too difficult to get people to click that "I agree" button, does it? - Machine learning applied to medical diagnosis/early detection/etc. This usage was already heavily regulated (at least in the EU). So much that I'm pretty sure the GDPR does not change anything in that space.
jeena 8y ago
So in your opinion the only way to not slow down innovation, is to missuse peoples private data by ad-companies which don't even produce anything valuable?
- downandout 8y ago
  See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17148781 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17148781 for my reply to comments of this nature.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - perl4ever 8y ago
    I looked at that and noticed a quote I feel is salient: "The GDPR isn't vastly different to the old Data Protection Directive, which has been in force since 1997. The panic over GDPR suggests that a lot of companies had simply been ignoring the DPD. If a bit of bullying is required to get businesses to obey the law, then so be it." (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17149581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17149581) This rings true to me. I do have a strong suspicion, as an American who's worked for an American multi-national at a low level, that people have been ignoring the existing requirements for dealing with EU data properly. For years. The flip side of all the wailing about heavy handed regulation is that business people will not obey something that isn't enforced. And then feel it is some sort of natural right to go on that way.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - sbov 8y ago
      > The flip side of all the wailing about heavy handed regulation is that business people will not obey something that isn't enforced. And then feel it is some sort of natural right to go on that way. Business people aren't special - this is true of all people. Consider the wailing that would occur if police actually enforced speed limits.
gaius 8y ago
forever slow down the pace of innovation in your country On the contrary, since we’ll be wasting so much less time than countries still addicted to the attention economy, we’ll run rings around them in terms of productivity
wruza 8y ago
You can always cancel any human-oriented law and get even more progress. Look where most of the [inhuman] progress was done: wars, henocide, communism. s: Imagine how many downsides we could experience by preventing big wars and ideologies of last century, oh my /s. Personally I’m glad that at least EU citizens can state where them lines should be drawn.
- jeena 8y ago
  Wait, Communism as in "a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production and the absence of social classes, money and the state."? Or did you mean Stalinism?
  - wruza 8y ago
    You’re right, I just used a ‘common’ term.

Kiro 8y ago

HN feels like a cult. If you raise even the tiniest objection or critique against GDPR you get downvoted into oblivion. I've never seen so much one-sided hate and bullying on here. For me it's very clear that while GDPR has many good things, it ís disasterous to some companies, which I really don't like and question myself whether it's worth it.

piaste 8y ago
Really? HN is the only website I frequent where there is any significant opposition to the GDPR. All social media I frequent, all general-interested news sites I read are universally happy about a crackdown on ads and personal data selling. They joke about the deluge of privacy policy updates, but the jokes definitely make fun of the companies and not of the law. Think it has anything to do with the HN crowd consisting disproportionately of the tiny minority of the workforce who make a living out of exactly the kind of behavior the GDPR wants to restrain?
- usrusr 8y ago
  > They joke about the deluge of privacy policy updates, but the jokes definitely make fun of the companies and not of the law. And the best jokes where made by those who still have personal memories of the y2k scare. Did you remember to stockpile cash and food?
kuschku 8y ago
Privacy is a basic right with constitutional protection that many people fought and died for. Showing bullshit ads isn’t.
ForHackernews 8y ago
It's only "disastrous" to bottom-feeding companies with terrible business models.
- kasey_junk 8y ago
  Like google.

freeflight 8y ago

> most EU citizens just gained a few basic rights without any significant downsides It's actually quite liberating, yesterday I made Twitter delete a whole bunch of contacts they got off my phone.

briandear 8y ago
You made them?

IIAOPSW 8y ago

"drink the kool aid" is a fairly common figure of speech and is rarely meant as a literal comparison to Jones town.