6 ms·

Ask HN: Motivation and employement

39 points by throwaway_aiG 8y ago

Hi, HN, I am working at big tech corporation in Russia as a experienced software developer. We got a lot of perks, I enjoy cushy salary (approximatly 7-9k$ after tax monthly - this is approx 8-10x Moscow median income), and I saved reasonable amount of money (I think I can live up to 5-6 years not working without frugality with the same standard of living). I do not enjoy consumption - I own old car, live in standard Soviet old flat (with mortgage paid off), but have a family of three (including myself) to support. The thing is I completely loose motivation to be an employee - there is just no economical sense in it, I just feel that my free time costs potentially more, than the wage I make. I am thinking about starting couple of my own things, but this is requires my time (to communicate with customers, to make sales, to build and evolve product), and it is risky (I can fail =) ). So the question is: I think that many of fellow HN's been in a such situation. What mady you (or not) to actully jump the ship?

casielane 8y ago
You don't have to jump the ship right away. You can find time and transition.
segmondy 8y ago
Build it part time, if it grows then you can leave. Most people that leave without a plan exhaust their savings and end up in a worst position.
- bsvalley 8y ago
  I second that. Married with kids? Don't jump off the train right away. Start your own project for fun on the side. It as to be fairly contained and not to hard to put in place because you want to minimize the time spent at your current 9-5 job. Make it grow, look at the potential, get early feedback or eventually generate a tiny income out of it (optional). Look at your savings, make a plan with a 1 year run, or 2 years if you can. Quit in good terms, tell people you're going to pursue your dream and would love to come back in the future. Quitting a job to pursue your dream is great, but that dream needs a clear definition.
  - TrinaryWorksToo 8y ago
    How do you make a project that makes money without your employer finding out and firing you?
    - bsvalley 8y ago
      Depends on your employer, your contract, your domain, location, etc. If you signed a non compete agreement when you join your employer then you need to make sure your own business isn't related to the same domain, etc. Distribute your product for free if it is a problem, then when it’s time to quit your job, introduce a non-free version of your product.
    - throwaway_aiG 8y ago
      In Russia it is totally legal, however employer wouldn't be happy, but who cares.
      - TrinaryWorksToo 8y ago
        I was thinking for your employer. If you piss them off then it's the same situation as if you have quit.
- throwaway_aiG 8y ago
  Just do not have enough time and focus (that's more important) for that. Usually I devote almost all out-of-office time to family, do not want to spend all weekends hacking =). Even if I can do it part time, it's will be only 10 hours of focus per week - it is too little.
  - cvaidya1986 8y ago
    10 hours was enough for plenty of fish to sell for 500M eventually 100% owner and single dev led for many years.
    - xstartup 8y ago
      Plenty of fish owner started in the US not some third world country.
      - cvaidya1986 8y ago
        Canada
malux85 8y ago
It takes about 1-2 years to get decent profit flowing in a startup, so if you can live 5-6 years, then quit and try for 2. You will grow so much during this time that if you had to go back into employment, you could command a much higher salary. But this only applies if you are a self-starter. Once I stopped working a full-time job (i.e. employment) and started my startup, I actually do a lot more hours. I dont notice it, but I do. It's not for everybody.
- throwaway_aiG 8y ago
  Do you quit after you found product-market fit? Or earlier?
  - malux85 8y ago
    Before - I had 1 year of runway, and I was sure I could get revenue positive in a year. I was wrong. After a year I had to go back into consulting for 6 months, that 6 months consulting gave me another year runway, and then that was enough to get everything off the ground.
milesvp 8y ago
My comment to people in similar situations, is to always remember that if you have that much savings, you are closer to retirement than you realize. If you can live off of a 4% drawdown, then you have very little risk long term of ever touching your principle in a very conservative index fund investment (stock markets historically in the US average 4% above inflation, and I suspect that's true globally). I'm not sure what the russian equivalent to Vanguard is, but I'd he surprised if you didn't have access to similar low cost investment. Sometimes all it takes is another couple years of slogging away at a job you hate to get you to a critical mass where investment income matches your yearly expenses. At that point all risk of quiting is basically gone, and you can pursue whatever you want. Also keep in mind that seven years is a pretty common number in business for a good product to become successful. You can have 100% growth year over year for 5 years and still only have 32 customers. So it may make sense to hold off until you have slightly more runway than 5-6 years savings. But doing the math, and putting dates on calendars can do wonders for how you feel about going into work. Also, you sound like you're in a really good spot no matter what you decide. Good luck!
- throwaway_aiG 8y ago
  Thanks! I do not hate my job, I just feel that I'm not using my full potential there. So, 'slogging away' is an strategy that I abide rigorously so far, but when should I stop? =) Yep, I am using equivalents of Vanguard, but I do not really look for FIRE as a solution. There are also risk even in 'risk-free' investments.
  - milesvp 8y ago
    Yeah, I wish I could be more help. I'm not in a position to quit my day job, even though I'm highly under utilized myself. I don't have your runway, but if I did, I'd be very tempted to take 9-12 months off to work on some projects that would make me either more valuable, or more competitive for a more interesting position. Personally, much of what I'm interested in working on next, I'm lacking in credibility that I can do the job, and just having a related project goes a long way in most fields. Since you mentioned wanting to work on a product though, I suspect one more year runway will decrease your chance of failure significantly (like maybe in half). But I'm so risk averse you probably should never listen to my risk assessments... I do like a lot of the comments suggesting working on the next thing for a while before quiting your high paying job (maybe even try to take a month off after your next project). I know your free time is at a premium, but there are a lot of things that just take calendar time when starting a business. Things like waiting for government papers, or responses from prospective customers. It's nice to be earning money while some of that is happening.
blitz_skull 8y ago
Read "When to Jump" it's been a quite fascinating read that has encouraged me to be courageous when faced with the task of jumping. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072V1BWFK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072V1BWFK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect)
mlboss 8y ago
I would suggest that you switch jobs or move to more interesting project at your current job. Starting a business sounds very attractive but it is totally different from a programming job. I personally enjoy programming and would hate to deal with customers/marketing/sales/VCs/employees. Starting a business is just too many variables and never ending cycle of worry. There are lot of new exciting technologies(AI/VR/Crypto) which are high in demand and fun to work in.
- throwaway_aiG 8y ago
  Thanks for your reply! This is a good advice, but I already tried it. For me it does not solved the problem, only gave me a little more motivation to dig into new tech. I'm not afraid of dealing with 'business' side of business, cause during my career I was engineering manager for couple of years and solution architect (tech sales guy) earlier. I also enjoy programming, but for me it is just a tool.
xstartup 8y ago
Starting a business is not easy in Russia. Problem with starting a big business is corrupt government getting interested in your business and oligarch sweeping off your biz. Move to SF and start your business there.
- throwaway_aiG 8y ago
  LOL, it is really easy, we have 6% tax here if you relatively small (below $1.5M USD yearly revenue). So, it's not an issue.
  - xstartup 8y ago
    Tax rate means nothing if it's difficult to expand your business. "This year, Russia is ranked 40th in the World Bank Group Global Doing Business report, which assesses the ease of doing business across 190 measured economies." Hiring developers in St Petersburg is no longer easy as developers have come to expect salary like you are getting.
staunch 8y ago
Living very frugally, and driving an old car, wouldn't bother me but living in a Soviet-style flat would seriously depress me. Maybe it's having an effect on your own psychology? Human beings are by nature outdoor animals and living in a huge block apartment is about as far from the natural outdoors as you can get. You could try renting a proper home on Airbnb for a month and see how you feel after a few weeks of having a nicer environment. This is the main reason most Americans want to own a home with a backyard. It allows you to relax and BBQ in the "outdoors" any time you want. Sitting around a fire pit is soothing in a primal way. I think most people find that it improves their psychology immensely.
- throwaway_aiG 8y ago
  Oh, well =). I enjoy living in city, it is very convenient. I like city infrastructure (especially public transport, here it is awesome). And here we have a "real winter" with snow for 4-5 months a year, so it's a additional challenge to clean out of snow your backyard.
- badpun 8y ago
  > relax and BBQ in the "outdoors" any time you want In Poland (which has similar climate to Moscow), it's not "any time you want", but more like May-September. For me, it's one of main reasons for not owning a house - it's a major hassle throught the year, but you reap the benefits for only around 5 months in this climate.
- zerr 8y ago
  Say thanks to zoning... In many post soviet (i.e. developing or non-developing) there is literally "wild west" - you can spend all of your life savings and build/buy a nice house with a backyard, but some other "investor" might build 30-store building right next to you.
maxk42 8y ago
I'm going to say something others would generally shy away from: If you have that much in savings, then instead of building a project, hire someone to build it for you. It will give you valuable management and project management skills, and you can do it easily while working a day-to-day job.
annywhey 8y ago
Here is a question. Do you have a good sense of how you would use your time after you quit? Obviously you would have more time for your family and hobbies, but beyond that, a lot of the challenge of working for yourself is in making sure you are still pursuing a plausible career path and not taking a wrong turn that will stress you out and has no reward. I recently approached this question by writing down what I know about myself and my general interests and strengths and weaknesses. I limited myself to finding the nine most important of these(an arbitrary number but small enough that I could keep all of them in my head) and reworked it over a few days until they described me well and were no longer contradicting each other. I figured out that I wanted to position myself towards something more like teaching than, e.g. "deep" R&D, sales, customer support. So now I am working on making video essays for a Youtube channel - something I hadn't considered until I really worked through what I did and did not want - and am having a great time with it. And if the channel and associated products don't work out(like a lot of YT channels, the actual channel and video content can be leveraged into a marketing funnel), it's still a pretty solid career move in terms of getting my name out there.
- codesternews 8y ago
  Can you post your youtube channel.
mabynogy 8y ago
Can you make your current employer a customer? Can you make a product with what you do for them? Do you know someone you could work with? It's better to work with someone. Taking that risk seems to be not a big deal in your case because you own your home. I think it's very important to have good support (at least moral) from the family (wife or parents).
ceolin 8y ago
It's always hard to give advice to someone - and even harder giving advice to someone you don't even know. That said, I think if you came here is because, deep down, you already know the answer and you're just looking for "validation" to do it. ;) If you're feeling you'd be happier doing something else (and have the financial means to support yourself), just do it. Of course, it's harder when you also have a family to support but just have an honest talk to them and tell them how you're feeling. They'll probably support your decision. It's a cliché but it's so true: life's too short to waste time doing something when our mind tells us we should be doing something else. That doesn't have to be something definitive either. Just try out something for a year or two and, if things don't work out, you can always find a new job (or maybe even go back to yours). ;) I think many people here would like as fortunate as you are to have enough savings to quit their jobs and do something they're truly passionate about. You've worked hard to reach this point. Enjoy it! :)
amorphous 8y ago
Have been in the same position, my advice is to not quit (I did and I thought I could have had it easier)! You are in a great position now to make the next step. Is taking a sabbatical an option? Do you have energy left after work to try something on the side? Find other companies. In the another thread I recommended the book "Why Employees Are Always A Bad Idea". There are different companies out there (building one myself).

39 points by throwaway_aiG 8y ago

casielane 8y ago

You don't have to jump the ship right away. You can find time and transition.

segmondy 8y ago

Build it part time, if it grows then you can leave. Most people that leave without a plan exhaust their savings and end up in a worst position.

bsvalley 8y ago
I second that. Married with kids? Don't jump off the train right away. Start your own project for fun on the side. It as to be fairly contained and not to hard to put in place because you want to minimize the time spent at your current 9-5 job. Make it grow, look at the potential, get early feedback or eventually generate a tiny income out of it (optional). Look at your savings, make a plan with a 1 year run, or 2 years if you can. Quit in good terms, tell people you're going to pursue your dream and would love to come back in the future. Quitting a job to pursue your dream is great, but that dream needs a clear definition.
- TrinaryWorksToo 8y ago
  How do you make a project that makes money without your employer finding out and firing you?
  - bsvalley 8y ago
    Depends on your employer, your contract, your domain, location, etc. If you signed a non compete agreement when you join your employer then you need to make sure your own business isn't related to the same domain, etc. Distribute your product for free if it is a problem, then when it’s time to quit your job, introduce a non-free version of your product.
  - throwaway_aiG 8y ago
    In Russia it is totally legal, however employer wouldn't be happy, but who cares.
    - TrinaryWorksToo 8y ago
      I was thinking for your employer. If you piss them off then it's the same situation as if you have quit.
throwaway_aiG 8y ago
Just do not have enough time and focus (that's more important) for that. Usually I devote almost all out-of-office time to family, do not want to spend all weekends hacking =). Even if I can do it part time, it's will be only 10 hours of focus per week - it is too little.
- cvaidya1986 8y ago
  10 hours was enough for plenty of fish to sell for 500M eventually 100% owner and single dev led for many years.
  - xstartup 8y ago
    Plenty of fish owner started in the US not some third world country.
    - cvaidya1986 8y ago
      Canada

malux85 8y ago

It takes about 1-2 years to get decent profit flowing in a startup, so if you can live 5-6 years, then quit and try for 2. You will grow so much during this time that if you had to go back into employment, you could command a much higher salary. But this only applies if you are a self-starter. Once I stopped working a full-time job (i.e. employment) and started my startup, I actually do a lot more hours. I dont notice it, but I do. It's not for everybody.

throwaway_aiG 8y ago
Do you quit after you found product-market fit? Or earlier?
- malux85 8y ago
  Before - I had 1 year of runway, and I was sure I could get revenue positive in a year. I was wrong. After a year I had to go back into consulting for 6 months, that 6 months consulting gave me another year runway, and then that was enough to get everything off the ground.

milesvp 8y ago

My comment to people in similar situations, is to always remember that if you have that much savings, you are closer to retirement than you realize. If you can live off of a 4% drawdown, then you have very little risk long term of ever touching your principle in a very conservative index fund investment (stock markets historically in the US average 4% above inflation, and I suspect that's true globally). I'm not sure what the russian equivalent to Vanguard is, but I'd he surprised if you didn't have access to similar low cost investment. Sometimes all it takes is another couple years of slogging away at a job you hate to get you to a critical mass where investment income matches your yearly expenses. At that point all risk of quiting is basically gone, and you can pursue whatever you want. Also keep in mind that seven years is a pretty common number in business for a good product to become successful. You can have 100% growth year over year for 5 years and still only have 32 customers. So it may make sense to hold off until you have slightly more runway than 5-6 years savings. But doing the math, and putting dates on calendars can do wonders for how you feel about going into work. Also, you sound like you're in a really good spot no matter what you decide. Good luck!

throwaway_aiG 8y ago
Thanks! I do not hate my job, I just feel that I'm not using my full potential there. So, 'slogging away' is an strategy that I abide rigorously so far, but when should I stop? =) Yep, I am using equivalents of Vanguard, but I do not really look for FIRE as a solution. There are also risk even in 'risk-free' investments.
- milesvp 8y ago
  Yeah, I wish I could be more help. I'm not in a position to quit my day job, even though I'm highly under utilized myself. I don't have your runway, but if I did, I'd be very tempted to take 9-12 months off to work on some projects that would make me either more valuable, or more competitive for a more interesting position. Personally, much of what I'm interested in working on next, I'm lacking in credibility that I can do the job, and just having a related project goes a long way in most fields. Since you mentioned wanting to work on a product though, I suspect one more year runway will decrease your chance of failure significantly (like maybe in half). But I'm so risk averse you probably should never listen to my risk assessments... I do like a lot of the comments suggesting working on the next thing for a while before quiting your high paying job (maybe even try to take a month off after your next project). I know your free time is at a premium, but there are a lot of things that just take calendar time when starting a business. Things like waiting for government papers, or responses from prospective customers. It's nice to be earning money while some of that is happening.

blitz_skull 8y ago

Read "When to Jump" it's been a quite fascinating read that has encouraged me to be courageous when faced with the task of jumping. (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072V1BWFK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072V1BWFK/ref=dp-kindle-redirect)

mlboss 8y ago

I would suggest that you switch jobs or move to more interesting project at your current job. Starting a business sounds very attractive but it is totally different from a programming job. I personally enjoy programming and would hate to deal with customers/marketing/sales/VCs/employees. Starting a business is just too many variables and never ending cycle of worry. There are lot of new exciting technologies(AI/VR/Crypto) which are high in demand and fun to work in.

throwaway_aiG 8y ago
Thanks for your reply! This is a good advice, but I already tried it. For me it does not solved the problem, only gave me a little more motivation to dig into new tech. I'm not afraid of dealing with 'business' side of business, cause during my career I was engineering manager for couple of years and solution architect (tech sales guy) earlier. I also enjoy programming, but for me it is just a tool.

xstartup 8y ago

Starting a business is not easy in Russia. Problem with starting a big business is corrupt government getting interested in your business and oligarch sweeping off your biz. Move to SF and start your business there.

throwaway_aiG 8y ago
LOL, it is really easy, we have 6% tax here if you relatively small (below $1.5M USD yearly revenue). So, it's not an issue.
- xstartup 8y ago
  Tax rate means nothing if it's difficult to expand your business. "This year, Russia is ranked 40th in the World Bank Group Global Doing Business report, which assesses the ease of doing business across 190 measured economies." Hiring developers in St Petersburg is no longer easy as developers have come to expect salary like you are getting.

staunch 8y ago

Living very frugally, and driving an old car, wouldn't bother me but living in a Soviet-style flat would seriously depress me. Maybe it's having an effect on your own psychology? Human beings are by nature outdoor animals and living in a huge block apartment is about as far from the natural outdoors as you can get. You could try renting a proper home on Airbnb for a month and see how you feel after a few weeks of having a nicer environment. This is the main reason most Americans want to own a home with a backyard. It allows you to relax and BBQ in the "outdoors" any time you want. Sitting around a fire pit is soothing in a primal way. I think most people find that it improves their psychology immensely.

throwaway_aiG 8y ago
Oh, well =). I enjoy living in city, it is very convenient. I like city infrastructure (especially public transport, here it is awesome). And here we have a "real winter" with snow for 4-5 months a year, so it's a additional challenge to clean out of snow your backyard.
badpun 8y ago
> relax and BBQ in the "outdoors" any time you want In Poland (which has similar climate to Moscow), it's not "any time you want", but more like May-September. For me, it's one of main reasons for not owning a house - it's a major hassle throught the year, but you reap the benefits for only around 5 months in this climate.
zerr 8y ago
Say thanks to zoning... In many post soviet (i.e. developing or non-developing) there is literally "wild west" - you can spend all of your life savings and build/buy a nice house with a backyard, but some other "investor" might build 30-store building right next to you.

maxk42 8y ago

I'm going to say something others would generally shy away from: If you have that much in savings, then instead of building a project, hire someone to build it for you. It will give you valuable management and project management skills, and you can do it easily while working a day-to-day job.

annywhey 8y ago

Here is a question. Do you have a good sense of how you would use your time after you quit? Obviously you would have more time for your family and hobbies, but beyond that, a lot of the challenge of working for yourself is in making sure you are still pursuing a plausible career path and not taking a wrong turn that will stress you out and has no reward. I recently approached this question by writing down what I know about myself and my general interests and strengths and weaknesses. I limited myself to finding the nine most important of these(an arbitrary number but small enough that I could keep all of them in my head) and reworked it over a few days until they described me well and were no longer contradicting each other. I figured out that I wanted to position myself towards something more like teaching than, e.g. "deep" R&D, sales, customer support. So now I am working on making video essays for a Youtube channel - something I hadn't considered until I really worked through what I did and did not want - and am having a great time with it. And if the channel and associated products don't work out(like a lot of YT channels, the actual channel and video content can be leveraged into a marketing funnel), it's still a pretty solid career move in terms of getting my name out there.

codesternews 8y ago
Can you post your youtube channel.

mabynogy 8y ago

Can you make your current employer a customer? Can you make a product with what you do for them? Do you know someone you could work with? It's better to work with someone. Taking that risk seems to be not a big deal in your case because you own your home. I think it's very important to have good support (at least moral) from the family (wife or parents).

ceolin 8y ago

It's always hard to give advice to someone - and even harder giving advice to someone you don't even know. That said, I think if you came here is because, deep down, you already know the answer and you're just looking for "validation" to do it. ;) If you're feeling you'd be happier doing something else (and have the financial means to support yourself), just do it. Of course, it's harder when you also have a family to support but just have an honest talk to them and tell them how you're feeling. They'll probably support your decision. It's a cliché but it's so true: life's too short to waste time doing something when our mind tells us we should be doing something else. That doesn't have to be something definitive either. Just try out something for a year or two and, if things don't work out, you can always find a new job (or maybe even go back to yours). ;) I think many people here would like as fortunate as you are to have enough savings to quit their jobs and do something they're truly passionate about. You've worked hard to reach this point. Enjoy it! :)

amorphous 8y ago

Have been in the same position, my advice is to not quit (I did and I thought I could have had it easier)! You are in a great position now to make the next step. Is taking a sabbatical an option? Do you have energy left after work to try something on the side? Find other companies. In the another thread I recommended the book "Why Employees Are Always A Bad Idea". There are different companies out there (building one myself).