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An added benefit is you could power your air-tools with something like this without having to convert to electrical energy. As a former off-gridder, that's actu

An added benefit is you could power your air-tools with something like this without having to convert to electrical energy. As a former off-gridder, that's actually a really big plus. Another non conventional way to store energy is using gravity power modules (example: http://www.gravitypower.net/ http://www.gravitypower.net/) Storing hydrogen from electrolysis via solar panels also sounds interesting. Basically once your batteries are charged you start making hydrogen.

brittohalloran 8y ago
Similar to those gravity power modules: a company called Ares (https://www.aresnorthamerica.com/ https://www.aresnorthamerica.com/) is trying to use much smaller concrete 'cars' on rails to store energy. Not sure of the status of it but it looked promising to me. The direct use of compressed air is interesting. Taking it to the extreme, you could have compressed air as your primary utility piped through your home, and have appliances that run off compressed air. Refrigeration cycle is compression based anyway for example. You would still need some electricity for control circuits for example, but you might be able to keep the heavy lifting air-based.
- VikingCoder 8y ago
  Nah, there's water-based computers, there could be compressed air computers. Picturing the different logic gates running on compressed air is a hoot.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    You should check out Ted Chiang’s story “Exhalation.”
    - VikingCoder 8y ago
      This seems to be a legal copy of it? http://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/Exhalation%20-%20Ted%20Chiang.html http://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/Exhalation%20-%20Te...
      - mikeash 8y ago
        That’s the one. I have no special insight into the legality, but it looks legitimate to me.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  In the midwest, running compressed air through a home is called amish electricity. They do use it for many things. Ive seen air-powered blenders. (Air power is a big thing for woodworking and so its use in the home too is no suprise.)
  - newman8r 8y ago
    I had no idea these existed, I want these when I move back off-grid. https://www.cottagecraftworks.com/kitchen-food-prep/non-electric-kitchen-appliances/air-powered-appliances https://www.cottagecraftworks.com/kitchen-food-prep/non-elec...
    - sandworm101 8y ago
      It is functional but has many issues. Water/condensation in the lines is a big deal in winter. Running pipes in walls makes leak detection difficult. They are all also very very loud.
  - grawprog 8y ago
    Stoneworking too. Most of our hand tools are air powered. The CNC machines use compressed air for the waterjet, the vacuums, changing tools and probably other things. The shop has several tanks and a backup air compressor. There can be weird problems and their expensive. The main compressor's been shutting down randomly and it's going to cost $700 just for the kit we need to repair it.
- newman8r 8y ago
  I looked at the Ares 'team page' and I personally know the CEO of that company, but I didn't know he was working with that company. super random. Your refrigeration example is interesting - now I'm curious if there's any refrigerators on the market that can power the compressor via compressed air intake (so it would still use closed-loop refrigerant, but the compressor would use air instead of electricity)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- skykooler 8y ago
  I assume you'd still need electricity for things like lighting, right? (I can't think of a way to directly generate light from air pressure without converting it to electricity first.)
  - solarkraft 8y ago
    Generate heat through friction ... okay, that's crazy. But fire would work (& could be controlled through air flow).
virmundi 8y ago
The US government looks into this at a national level. Doesn’t look like it went too well though. https://arpa-e.energy.gov/?q=slick-sheet-project/fuel-free-compressed-air-energy-storage https://arpa-e.energy.gov/?q=slick-sheet-project/fuel-free-c...
- JasonFruit 8y ago
  The article focuses on a small-scale approach that has its own challenges but is different from what your document discusses.
  - virmundi 8y ago
    Right. I thought it would be interesting to see it there were experimental findings on a large scale. For example put a massive solar array in the US SW. Transport the power across the country and store excess in geologically stable areas. Those storage facilities then act as power plants at night or if there were delays in sunlight.
tambourine_man 8y ago
My knowledge of physics is very basic and practical engineering is zero, but storing hydrogen in compressed tanks always seem very impractical to me. It's the most freaking volatile element in the universe. And atomic hydrogen reacts with pretty much anything. Leakage and corrosion. From my armchair perspective, storying it in chemical bonds (like nature does) makes a lot more sense.
- sandworm101 8y ago
  The bigger deal is how easily hydrogen leaks. H2 is small enough to squeeze through tiny holes in rubber or plastic gaskets. It's fine in a car, but keeping it in big tanks for months is something else. At least when it leaks it floats away rather than collect on the floor looking for a reason to ignite.
  - abakker 8y ago
    And, Hydrogen embrittlement makes the tanks fail prematurely. (http://www.corrosionclinic.com/types_of_corrosion/hydrogen_embrittlement_he.htm http://www.corrosionclinic.com/types_of_corrosion/hydrogen_e...)
- harperlee 8y ago
  It would be great if there was a (safe, efficient) way to store electricity in ethanol - but it seems that the process is not very efficient and requires carbon monoxide as input, which is not very safe at offgrid-home scale. That is, unless electricity is used to light corn crops. Still not very efficient.
  - adrianN 8y ago
    It's not really efficient, but you can create short chain hydrocarbons to store fuel for your fuel cell. Methanol for example is a lot easier to handle than hydrogen and there are fuel cells that consume it.
    - beat 8y ago
jandrese 8y ago
Some Amish communities have a cottage industry around air powered appliances because the rules state that you can't use electricity for frivolous uses, but people still want a blender or mixer or something. In practice I think that adding the fittings and the long hose from the tank to your work area probably makes this somewhat impractical, but it's a cute idea.
mabbo 8y ago
A lot of modern automation works this way. Conveyance systems with pop-up diverts make this satisfying hiss noise as they do their work- all powered by compressed air coming from a huge tank in the parking lot.

brittohalloran 8y ago

Similar to those gravity power modules: a company called Ares (https://www.aresnorthamerica.com/ https://www.aresnorthamerica.com/) is trying to use much smaller concrete 'cars' on rails to store energy. Not sure of the status of it but it looked promising to me. The direct use of compressed air is interesting. Taking it to the extreme, you could have compressed air as your primary utility piped through your home, and have appliances that run off compressed air. Refrigeration cycle is compression based anyway for example. You would still need some electricity for control circuits for example, but you might be able to keep the heavy lifting air-based.

VikingCoder 8y ago
Nah, there's water-based computers, there could be compressed air computers. Picturing the different logic gates running on compressed air is a hoot.
- mikeash 8y ago
  You should check out Ted Chiang’s story “Exhalation.”
  - VikingCoder 8y ago
    This seems to be a legal copy of it? http://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/Exhalation%20-%20Ted%20Chiang.html http://www.nightshadebooks.com/Downloads/Exhalation%20-%20Te...
    - mikeash 8y ago
      That’s the one. I have no special insight into the legality, but it looks legitimate to me.
sandworm101 8y ago
In the midwest, running compressed air through a home is called amish electricity. They do use it for many things. Ive seen air-powered blenders. (Air power is a big thing for woodworking and so its use in the home too is no suprise.)
- newman8r 8y ago
  I had no idea these existed, I want these when I move back off-grid. https://www.cottagecraftworks.com/kitchen-food-prep/non-electric-kitchen-appliances/air-powered-appliances https://www.cottagecraftworks.com/kitchen-food-prep/non-elec...
  - sandworm101 8y ago
    It is functional but has many issues. Water/condensation in the lines is a big deal in winter. Running pipes in walls makes leak detection difficult. They are all also very very loud.
- grawprog 8y ago
  Stoneworking too. Most of our hand tools are air powered. The CNC machines use compressed air for the waterjet, the vacuums, changing tools and probably other things. The shop has several tanks and a backup air compressor. There can be weird problems and their expensive. The main compressor's been shutting down randomly and it's going to cost $700 just for the kit we need to repair it.
newman8r 8y ago
I looked at the Ares 'team page' and I personally know the CEO of that company, but I didn't know he was working with that company. super random. Your refrigeration example is interesting - now I'm curious if there's any refrigerators on the market that can power the compressor via compressed air intake (so it would still use closed-loop refrigerant, but the compressor would use air instead of electricity)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
skykooler 8y ago
I assume you'd still need electricity for things like lighting, right? (I can't think of a way to directly generate light from air pressure without converting it to electricity first.)
- solarkraft 8y ago
  Generate heat through friction ... okay, that's crazy. But fire would work (& could be controlled through air flow).

virmundi 8y ago

The US government looks into this at a national level. Doesn’t look like it went too well though. https://arpa-e.energy.gov/?q=slick-sheet-project/fuel-free-compressed-air-energy-storage https://arpa-e.energy.gov/?q=slick-sheet-project/fuel-free-c...

JasonFruit 8y ago
The article focuses on a small-scale approach that has its own challenges but is different from what your document discusses.
- virmundi 8y ago
  Right. I thought it would be interesting to see it there were experimental findings on a large scale. For example put a massive solar array in the US SW. Transport the power across the country and store excess in geologically stable areas. Those storage facilities then act as power plants at night or if there were delays in sunlight.

tambourine_man 8y ago

My knowledge of physics is very basic and practical engineering is zero, but storing hydrogen in compressed tanks always seem very impractical to me. It's the most freaking volatile element in the universe. And atomic hydrogen reacts with pretty much anything. Leakage and corrosion. From my armchair perspective, storying it in chemical bonds (like nature does) makes a lot more sense.

sandworm101 8y ago
The bigger deal is how easily hydrogen leaks. H2 is small enough to squeeze through tiny holes in rubber or plastic gaskets. It's fine in a car, but keeping it in big tanks for months is something else. At least when it leaks it floats away rather than collect on the floor looking for a reason to ignite.
- abakker 8y ago
  And, Hydrogen embrittlement makes the tanks fail prematurely. (http://www.corrosionclinic.com/types_of_corrosion/hydrogen_embrittlement_he.htm http://www.corrosionclinic.com/types_of_corrosion/hydrogen_e...)
harperlee 8y ago
It would be great if there was a (safe, efficient) way to store electricity in ethanol - but it seems that the process is not very efficient and requires carbon monoxide as input, which is not very safe at offgrid-home scale. That is, unless electricity is used to light corn crops. Still not very efficient.
- adrianN 8y ago
  It's not really efficient, but you can create short chain hydrocarbons to store fuel for your fuel cell. Methanol for example is a lot easier to handle than hydrogen and there are fuel cells that consume it.
  - beat 8y ago

jandrese 8y ago

Some Amish communities have a cottage industry around air powered appliances because the rules state that you can't use electricity for frivolous uses, but people still want a blender or mixer or something. In practice I think that adding the fittings and the long hose from the tank to your work area probably makes this somewhat impractical, but it's a cute idea.

mabbo 8y ago

A lot of modern automation works this way. Conveyance systems with pop-up diverts make this satisfying hiss noise as they do their work- all powered by compressed air coming from a huge tank in the parking lot.