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Apple Signs Deal with Volkswagen for Driverless Car
- Crash0v3rid3 8y agoUnless I misread this deal seems to only cover shuttling for their employees. I think Apple has realized how far behind they are in this area and I'm not sure what they can do at this point to keep up with Waymo and others.
- empath75 8y agoThey can spend a pile of money on an acquisition, but that’s about it.
- dsfyu404ed 8y agoDo they need a self driving car? Facebook isn't building one. Amazon isn't building one. I can see why a self driving car appeals to Apple since Apple's expertise is integrating software and hardware in a high quality way but I don't see this as something the need to do to not be left behind.
- eaurouge 8y agoNeither of those companies has the cash reserves Apple has at its disposal. Nor the expertise in hardware software integration. There’s lots of things Apple can do with their cash, gaining a foothold in a data rich industry of the future is one of the more obvious ones.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y agoAn even more obvious one would be bringing their hardware up to the same spec as their competitors and fixing macOS...
- mandeepj 8y ago> Amazon isn't building one Amazon is working on it. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/12/intel-cisco-and-amazon-introduce-self-driving-car-technology-at-ces.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/12/intel-cisco-and-amazon-intro...
- majestik 8y agoI’m not sure what they can do to keep up with the Nomad or Treo.
- danieldk 8y agoBuilding a self-driving car is vastly more complex and comes with a lot more regulatory problems than building a competitor to the Nomad. Also, Apple has had trouble recruiting top AI talent, among other reasons due to their secrecy in a field where publishing is everything. Though, they have opened up a bit. I am not saying it can't be done. But Apple has been quite bad at machine learning so far.
- brisance 8y agoI don't think that they are bad, just that their focus is more on the product holistically than as a standout feature. i.e. machine learning is a means to an end, not the end in itself. Whereas Google, Amazon etc sells products and services like GCP, AWS Recognition etc. Naturally they would like to market themselves as being the experts, and have the credentialed professionals to do so.
- dingaling 8y ago> I’m not sure what they can do to keep up with the Nomad or Treo. Wait for someone to walk in the door with a design that Philips rejected?
- mikelward 8y agoIt seems like there's been a lot more of their Lexus cars on the road in my part of Sunnyvale the past few weeks. They look like this: https://goo.gl/images/Kt9t3M https://goo.gl/images/Kt9t3M
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- siteshwar 8y agoI suspect they will end up in the same situation as they did with Motorola more than a decade ago, until someone reminds them that the people who are serious about software should make their own hardware.
- mandeepj 8y agoIt will teach them a lot of lessons just like that phone stint with Motorola. There is also a rumor that partnership was just to learn phone building for Apple
- dvcrn 8y agoI wish Apple the best, but the truth is that AI powered software made by Apple just isn't good. But I still prefer Apples stance to data privacy a lot more than what Google does, even if it means it's a bit behind. But at this point, I think the only ways to catch up is to gobble up a few AI powered startups with their cash.
- jfoster 8y agoI don't think it's fair to compare this with other Apple projects. It's quite likely that they've hired specifically for this.
- IkmoIkmo 8y agoI don't know, that feels a bit like saying a decade ago that Google built a search engine, what in the world do they know about building a mobile operating system? If this fails, I don't think 'Apple has little experience with building AI-driven software' will be a prominent reason. It would in a simulated world where Apple was not allowed hire any expertise, acquire any companies or technology and spend none of its cash, but could only divert the engineers who worked on Siri to this project. Sure. But that just isn't the case.
- hammock 8y ago> what in the world do they know about building a mobile operating system? They don't. Android was an acquisition and so was Waymo.
- qaq 8y ago"Apple once had grand aspirations to build its own electric self-driving car and lead the next generation of transportation. Over time, the tech giant’s ambitions ran into reality." Reality is Apple can buy VW AG for cash twice.
- johannes1234321 8y agoReality as well is that independently from the amount of shares they buy, can only have 20% of the votes and the German state of Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) will always have 20.2% by law. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Act Also: Independent from current market value and imagining the law wouldn't exist they'd still have to pay quite a surplus on the market value and then have major trouble in handling a company of that size. (Edit: oh I missed that the law has been changed since the Porsche takeover story ...)
- qaq 8y agoOk once :)
- Barrin92 8y agoI'm not sure if that's a joke but Volkswagen generates about as much revenue as Apple and employes 700k people, it's not exactly a small business
- qaq 8y agoWhat part is a joke VW market cap is 85 billion. Apple cash reserves were like 280 they authorized 100 billion share repurchase so prob less now still def. enough to buy it out.
- Barrin92 8y agothe market capitalization just reflects the total value of all outstanding shares, not necessarily the price at which anybody would be willing to fork their shares over. If you'd try to take over VW you'd need to put significantly more money on the table. (if the majority shareholders were at all willing to sell).
- bigiain 8y agoI wonder how much this was about Apple being "spurned by BMW and Mercedes", and how much it was about "no other car manufacturer was as desperate for sales and PR as post-dieselgate Volkswagen - or were prepared to sign up to Apple's offer of outrageously onerous terms and privacy/IP ownership clauses"?
- adrianN 8y agoUnfortunately VW doesn't seem to be desperate for sales. They're selling more than ever before.
- batbomb 8y agoThat’s because they are a level above the other vehicles in the same price range.
- stiGGG 8y ago>That’s because they are a level above in marketing to the other vehicles in the same price range. FTFY Reference: I‘ve owned two VWs and an Audi.
- carlmr 8y agoAlso VW is selling a lot of the other cheaper vehicles that are advertised less as well. Skoda and Seat are VW.
- blattimwind 8y agoSo, you owned three VWs?
- fergie 8y agoMaybe VW was just the best match. VW have significant experience of producing cars for other manufacturers, and put a lot of effort into developing reusable "platforms". They are super popular in Europe- hitting the exact sweet spot between practicality and desirability (Top Gear described the Golf as "the car that everybody buys with their own money"). The forthcoming ID range is perhaps the strongest lineup of EVs in any manufacturer's pipeline. They need more traction in the US, and it therefore makes sense to partner with the arguably coolest US corporation.
- kovrik 8y agoCan they please make Maps and Siri usable first?
- Bud 8y agoWhat's not "usable" about Maps? Other than the data being somewhat being Google's data, which isn't a usability issue?
- kovrik 8y agoThey are OK. Not sure about US, but here in New Zealand they don't work so well. I try Apple Maps ~once in 6 months, They are definitely getting better and better, but still no comparison to Google Maps.
- madeofpalk 8y agoI have a feeling the iOS Maps engineers aren't building cars?
- yborg 8y agoEPA emissions tech: Please report the current engine NOx level. Passat: Ok, I found this on the web for "Engine knocks level"... EPA emissions tech: Please report engine PM 2.5 particulate level. Passat: Here's what I found on the web for 'Engine p.m. 2.5 particulate level"... It's a match made in heaven.
- k_sze 8y agoAnd I’m sure VW can make all the autopilot safety tests pass. (wink wink)
- Intermernet 8y agoWell at least macs might soon be considered good for gaming again...
- camillomiller 8y agoI would never defend VW for the emissions scandal (although they were just the ones who were caught, far from the sole offender), but they certainly deserve praise for their ability to market good affordable vehicles to the masses. My bad feeling about this is coming from another perspective: this reminds me pretty closely of the Motorola-Apple Rockr fiasco. Cars are very different from phones, though. I’m surprised that Apple couldn’t sign a deal with the Japanese or the Koreans though.
- chrisjc 8y agoSomewhat surprising since it seems that Audi (owned by VWAG) is so entrenched in the Google (Android Auto and Android Automotive) ecosystem. Although not entirely indicating that the Android presence will have anything to do with driverless, it would only make sense that this would be how Google gets their foot in the door with all of these auto manufactures. I guess it makes sense for car manufacturers to spread out the risk instead of completely committing to one ecosystem over another.
- madeofpalk 8y agoIsn't it more appropriate to look at Google's actual self-driving initiative partiers, rather than who's using their dashboards?
- zmarty 8y agoI don't understand why Apple signed a deal with one of the most dishonest companies in the world. They are very likely responsible for thousands of extra deaths due to the emissions scandal.
- rmrfrmrf 8y agoI had the same thought. Seems like a huge strategic error and at odds with Apple's core values.
- bredren 8y agoI also wondered this, the VW emissions scandal seems entirely counter to the purported views on environmental responsibility by Apple. However, Apple is not an environmental company. Apple is a product company. In products, Apple's goal is to build the best of whatever they're building, in the world. Finding a manufacturing partner willing to help Apple accomplish data privacy and customer relationship differentiation is more important to the product goal than a manufacturing partner free of environmental scandal baggage. Other considerations: VW the company has and will continue to be brought to justice and pay the price for its fraud. Apple vehicles likely will never run on fossil fuels, even in VW vehicles. Other car manufacturers likely have their own historical scandals that run counter to Apple values.
- goldenkey 8y agoEveryone was cheating to different extents AFAIK. Here's a fellow hacker's review of Deiselgate (1 hour talk): https://youtu.be/7t4paclIwuU https://youtu.be/7t4paclIwuU
- dplgk 8y agoPerhaps Apple got a very good deal
- hammock 8y agoDo people still think VW was the only one doing it?
- B1FF_PSUVM 8y ago
- mrep 8y agoConsidering how hard it has been for Tesla in the automotive industry, I'm not surprised in the slightest with this failure despite Apples 1000+ employee investment.
- panic 8y agoI wish Apple would stop chasing trends like self-driving cars and augmented reality. They used to have a strong vision for the future -- now it just looks like they're out of ideas.
- ghaff 8y agoHowever, their "vision for the future" has often been more along the lines of taking concepts that have been imperfectly implemented by others and then refining them. The iPhone comes closest to representing something fundamentally new and different in the totality of hardware, software, and ecosystem. But most of Apple's success has comes through refinement and execution. Vehicle electronics packages and AR would seem to be two areas that could benefit from refinement as the underlying technology becomes available.
- swlkr 8y agoI wouldn't mind seeing them try to make a pair of high end AR sunglasses, if only to compete with luxottica
- weaksauce 8y agoI get your sentiment but i would also like to say that people scoffed at jobs holding what looked like an oversized iphone on the stage and that's been a boom for them fwict. the iphone was a product that people dismissed out of hand. the ipod was a product that people dismissed out of hand and it saved apple. hell the apple ii was pretty revolutionary back in the day.
- panic 8y agoYeah, that's kind of what I'm saying -- instead of focusing on more "serious" things that "everyone knows are the future", I wish Apple had the courage to focus on the kind of products that people tend to dismiss as boring or derivative at first.
- sjwright 8y ago> products that people tend to dismiss as boring or derivative Not a good heuristic, as that describes the Apple Watch. (Though it wasn't derivative; its contemporaries existed almost exclusively off the back of a torrent of leaks about the future Apple product. Competitors knew about it long before it was launched and raced ahead with their own junk.) (Also I don't think the Apple Watch is boring, but it is niche. The particular niche I am fascinated with is healthcare. It's possible that within a decade or two, their Watch product could be highly disruptive.)
- goldenkey 8y agoI sincerely hope the software isn't designed with the same buggyness as the latest OSX renditions..
- hughc 8y agoDogfooding your driverless car software by driving your fellow employees around in a van powered by it? There could be some awkward moments in the cafeteria chatting with your workmate, who's in a neckbrace after a software glitch.
- jonshariat 8y agoCo-worker shows up in a neck brace "Hey" oh hey. ... " YOU FORGOT THE BLODDY SEMI-COLON BRAD!!!"
- jacksmith21006 8y agoHow about first improve Apple maps or at least let us use Google maps with Car Play? https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ https://www.justinobeirne.com/google-maps-moat/ Google Maps's Moat - Justin O'Beirne Only then fix Siri and then try your hand at an automated car. Maps and Siri will not kill someone. But honestly if Apple can not figure out maps or Siri how on Earth would they do a car?
- abritinthebay 8y agoApple Maps has been better than Google Maps for me (especially UI wise) for several years now. Siri may not be perfect but she’s pretty darn good and, frankly, the only trustworthy assistant on the market.
- guidedlight 8y agoGoogle Assistant is more capable than Siri. Apple has lost a lot of ground.
- icanhackit 8y agoTrue for now, but WWDC in June might tell a different story.
- cozzyd 8y agoYeah, they can enlist VW's help in story telling.
- pier25 8y agoI siriously doubt it.
- icanhackit 8y agoI was responding to the "Apple has lost a lot of ground" part, I'm not suggesting Apple will overtake Google with their assistant. I should have quoted the original text.
- SN76477 8y agoAutonomous vehicles are a safety issue and should be open source, not a race to innovate.
- jumelles 8y agoI'm continually shocked at how easy tech companies think it will be to build a car.
- StaticRedux 8y agoWhy does attempting to do so mean they think it's easy?
- rpmcgarvey 8y agoAdditionally, isn't that precisely why Apple are partnering with Volkswagen?
- threeseed 8y agoBuilding a car is incredibly easy. Double so if it's electric. What's hard is (a) building lots of cars as Tesla is finding out and (b) building a perfect self driving car. Now Apple is one of the best companies in the world at manufacturing and as we've seen with FaceID they have a strong grasp of integrating neural networks into commercial products. So I would never underestimate Apple of all companies.
- Animats 8y agoBuilding a high-end one-off car is not a huge job. I know people from small teams who've done it. Building a large number of cars at a competitive price is hard, as Tesla found out the hard way.
- derda 8y agoComing from a country whos economy is basically build around cars (Germany) I am baffled by this also. Especially when they think that they can do everything in-house. All the big car companys rely on a ton of suppliers for all kinds of stuff (ranging from drivetrain, to software from ECUs). This means they dont have to worry about a lot of stuff and can basically act as big-time system integrators.
- 8y ago
- bluthru 8y agoI think Jony really wanted to design a car but Apple came to terms with the fact that they just aren't that company.
- Animats 8y agoThe project has suffered from repeated changes in direction that have hurt morale and led to hundreds of departures from its peak of more than 1,000 members two years ago, five former Apple employees said. ... Instead, Apple has signed a deal with Volkswagen to turn some of the carmaker’s new T6 Transporter vans into Apple’s self-driving shuttles for employees — a project that is behind schedule and consuming nearly all of the Apple car team’s attention, said three people familiar with the project. This is more like "we give up, but will do a symbolic project so we don't look too stupid." This is harder to do than the web/mobile crowd thought. This is hard real time high-reliability, like avionics. Google/Waymo gets this. Most of the others don't. So far, Tesla, Uber, Volvo, and Apple have failed. Not sure about Cruise yet, but I saw one of their vehicles get stuck behind a double-parked car in SF and the human had to take over.
- brisance 8y agoYour Google bias is showing. How have the other companies "failed"? Apple hasn't even started and it has "failed"?
- Animats 8y ago"Hasn't even started"? They had a thousand people working on self-driving cars at one point.
- brisance 8y agoCan a product be considered a failure if it was never made available for sale to the public? This is exactly why Apple is secretive about its projects. Sure, there have been true failures like the iPod Hi-Fi, the eMate, the 20th Anniversary Mac etc. But to consider the car project to be a failure is presumptuous and premature.
- sangnoir 8y ago>Can a product be considered a failure if it was never made available for sale to the public? Yes.
- bengrunfeld 8y agoDoes anyone feel Apple Maps 2 coming.....? ;)
- mikejb 8y agoThe entire move is a stepping stone in learning the technology, which makes sense to me. The question on my mind is if this gives them access to VW AG, which would include Audi, Porsche, and what I place my bet/hope on: Bentley. Because I doubt that shipping employees around campus in vans is their long-term goal here.
- tobilg 8y agoI really wonder why they chose a T6 as the platform, if MOIA as a 100% daughter of Volkswagen already has developed a vehicle very close to what is described as goal for the T6: https://www.moia.io/vehicle/ https://www.moia.io/vehicle/
- z3t4 8y agoIf the car will be self driving, I wonder if it would be less scary if you sit backwards.
- tobilg 8y agoThe vehicle has only forward-facing seats...
- brandonsometig 8y agoIf they're using the T6 platform they will kit it out however they like.
- pentae 8y agoI guess all bets are off on them fixing their lineup of computer hardware then.
- stuaxo 8y ago*Needs an actual driver outside of test conditions.
- aditya 8y agoI wonder if this is the Motorola ROKR all over again
- erikpukinskis 8y agoIf that’s true we should see an Apple Car ~2 years after the Volksapfel is released!
- whywhywhywhy 8y agoThe world is in need of a good computer company that actually cares about computers and wont get distracted by devices, TV shows and definitely not cars.
- m_mueller 8y agoyes, including computer software (if it's only hardware then Lenovo and a few others seem to be fine). but with all the PC pioneers gone it seems difficult to achieve. I wish Alan Kay had more entrepreneurial spirit, I think his group has (always had) all the right ideas on how to actually harness the power of PCs.
- HugoDaniel 8y agoThis made me want to watch the series "Dirty Money" again... shame on you Apple, you don't need this.
- telltruth 8y agoFavorite tidbits: - This is only for experimental self-driving vans shuttling employees. It will have drivers to take control on demand. - Initially Apple planned self-driving vehicle where 4 seats face each other, sunroof material that gives less hit, electrically tinted windows and holographic windshields. - Project was abandoned because they realized "designing and building fundamental parts of a new car was not simple". - Apple tried to partner with someone who can do manufacturing while they do design. BMW, Mercedes, Nissan - all rejected that offer. - Ive was charged with design. Tim Cook drives BMW so he wanted to partner with them. - VW accepted the offer because they have been beaten a lot. They will supply basic components while Apple will add others. It surprises to me no end that a company with $100B in funds, vast experience in supply chain and ability to suck up virtually all talent is struggling so badly at a technology that is over 100 years old while Tesla with its shoestring budgets leap frogged all established players. Goes on to show that leader at the top makes all the difference in the world. Kudos to NYT for doing investigative journalism.
- rjzzleep 8y ago> It surprises to me no end that a company with $100B in funds and ability to suck up virtually all talent is struggling so badly at a technology that is over 100 years old while Tesla with its shoestring budgets leap frogged all established player. Goes on to show that leader at the top makes all the difference in the world. Look at who's at leadership positions at VW, look at the hierarchies of these old German companies. You're just looking at the money. These companies are too big to fail for the German government. They're so comfy sitting in those chairs. They know something is wrong, but they don't really feel the heat. In the back of their minds they're just waiting for retirement and want to change as little as possible from the status quo. If they do and something goes wrong, they catch the blame. If they don't and things go wrong, their predecessor is to blame. That won't stop them from talking about innovation and change all day long though. In the end I won't tell you trust me, I know, I spent two years in such a place, but I can tell you that once you start changing your perspective the entire madness starts making sense.
- skgoa 8y ago
- bane 8y agoAnecdata: It used to be an almost perfect predictor in my social circles that people who owned a VW also owned lots of Apple gear. Two different people I knew where both VW enthusiasts AND Apple iPod collectors (these two things used to also be strong predictors of several other consumer habits coincidentally). It's a good match in terms of synergy, but I don't see it doing much to grow the customer base of either company even if it might grow the revenue per customer. A term I've used for it in the past is "choir mining" where you keep squeezing your existing customers.
- JohnStudio 8y agoAfter visiting the bay area ... it makes me wonder if Tesla done f'd up by not working with them on an OS for their cars. It seems like such a natural fit for the two.
- empath75 8y agoI think Apple wants to sell more than a few thousand cars.
- ninedays 8y agoPeople are so quick at forgetting that there would be no 3D in Google Maps if Apple didn't release it with iOS 6. When using transit, Apple maps tells me the exact exit # to go to my destination. In a city with transit, I found Apple map to be far superior than Google which is remarkable. Edit : my point is that it is a bit childish to state that one is better than the other. We need both in order to all have a better map experience. Som in some cases, it is better to use one and in some cases better to use the other.
- Isamu 8y ago>In late 2015, Apple bought two Lexus S.U.V.s and hired a Virginia firm called Torc Robotics to retrofit the vehicles More about Torc Robotics, founded by Virginia Tech autonomous vehicle competition team: https://torc.ai/our-story/ https://torc.ai/our-story/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torc_Robotics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torc_Robotics
- karthikvellanki 8y agoAnyone know why Apple hasn't acquired one of the existing self driving car startups. If a company known to be old and slow like GM could overpay and snap up Cruise, what's stopping Apple from opening their warchest to acquire one of the many other self driving car startups that have made decent progress?