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Logically speaking, it's either of: 1. These are unrelated 2. The cause is specific to the setup/operation of the US consulates themselves 3. Both Cubans (or
by huhtenberg 8y ago
Logically speaking, it's either of:
1. These are unrelated
2. The cause is specific to the setup/operation of the US consulates themselves
3. Both Cubans (or Russians) and Chinese are using 3rd party spy tech that causes that
Anything else?
- amputect 8y agoI was pretty amused by the suggestion in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17135061 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17135061 that it's actually US spy equipment that is malfunctioning and causing the problem, but it's honestly not totally implausible.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- falcon620 8y agoI bet on this angle.
- simplicio 8y agoI dunno. Seems like it would be trivial for the US to figure out that the phenomenon corresponded to whatever change in their gear caused it.
- envy2 8y agoThat doesn't readily explain the Canadians impacted by this in Cuba, though.
- bdamm 8y agoCanadians and Americans do share a lot of equipment, due to a common supply market. That is not the only reason.
- Iwan-Zotow 8y agowell, there is an answer for that : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UKUSA_Agreement
- crazypyro 8y agoCorrect me if I'm wrong, but this is a possibility you didn't directly cover.... 4. Chinese (or any major power) has tech near both US consulates and used Cuba as a cover.
- rdlecler1 8y agoUnless it’s Russia, Iran, or NK, it’s probably not a weapon. Nothing to be gained diplomatically. There was some stories suggested that this was cause by interference of two survelience bugs.
- sgnelson 8y agoI agree with you, but there was some speculation that it could be Russia trying to ruin diplomatic ties between the US and Cuba. And Russia does have quite the history of abusing diplomats (though typically only within Russia.) This article just recently came out on the topic: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/05/19/michael-mcfaul-book-excerpt-218408 https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/05/19/michael-m...
- noobermin 8y agoSo why would they attack some poor chap in China?
- rdlecler1 8y agoI could see Russia trying to stir the pot because formenting chaos with plausible deniability seems to be part of Putin’s strategy toward the west, although I would have imagined that the UK would be a more recent target. NK is trying to dethaw relations so that doesn’t make much sense. That leaves you with Iran. Unless of course it’s not a weapon at all. It could even be interference with US counter survalience technology.
- swarnie_ 8y agoI'm not a lover of coincidence (As i assume most readers here aren't). I'm leaning towards the common denominator which is the US consulates setup.
- adventured 8y ago4. Russia attempting to throw more tension into the US relationships with Cuba and China. Historically that wouldn't be unusual at all, for Russia to screw with the US in such a way. In real terms the US is in a cold war with Russia (and has been for a decade). The US recently killed hundreds of their citizens that were acting as foreign proxy militia, in Syria; I would imagine there's all sorts of tit for tat going on between the two countries. We're into a new era of the large powers messing with each other again. If that were the case re Russia, however, I'd have expected to see a lot more cases in China, to really push it. Shoddy spy tech, on one side or the other, is the most likely cause imo.
- joyeuse6701 8y agoI feel like this would make sense for Russia and Cuba given the power dynamic, but the risk of being exposed by China... I would consider that too high a risk for Russia to piss off the other economic super power.
- dragonwriter 8y ago> In real terms the US is in a cold war with Russia (and has been for a decade). At least two; the new Cold War was talked about a little bit before, but became undeniable during the Balkan crisis and resulting international peacekeeping missions. It got less public attention (at least on the US side) when the focus was on US hot wars in the Middle East and Central Asia, but it didn't go away.
- lawnchair_larry 8y agoWorth noting that the incident to which you are referring was a case of non-military Russians employed by Assad as mercenaries, who attempted to attack US forces in Syria. The Russian military and the US military in Syria are in fairly close communication, and both are taking pains not to strike each other. The Russian government likely does not care much about the rogue mercenaries who made a dumb decision to attack Americans, and certainly are not going to retaliate by attacking other Americans in other countries. Considering that the attack on the Americans is the kind of thing that could kickstart a war, I’d almost guess that the Russian government would retaliate against the private security contractor for nearly destabilizing the situation and almost provoking a US counter attack against Russian military forces.
- Symmetry 8y agoPeople dropping over in embassies in your country is a major embarrassment and I'd tend to assume it was a third party in both cases whose actions caused the illnesses in both embassies. There are lots of governments which would be interested in US internal diplomatic discussions and might be using high powered microwave transceivers or whatever this is to get it. So if anything I'd tend to see this as evidence point to someone other than the Chinese being behind this.
- dragonwriter 8y agoAnother possibility: It is one party (state or non-state actor) that has conducted attacks on the US in Cuba and China, which may not necessarily be either Cuba or China or acting with their knowledge. (Even when it was just Cuba, third-party attack was a possibility discussed.)
- wafflebear 8y agoIf it is an attack rather than an accident, then after the Skripal poisoning, Russia should be the #1 suspect. There is only one country in the world that is brazen enough to attack a US consulate in China.
- dionian 8y agoExcept maybe .. China
- wafflebear 8y agoAn attack on diplomatic missions in China is an attack on China too.
- toomanybeersies 8y agoMy tinfoil hat was actually pointing at non-state actors. This would be something within their means, and something that I'm sure somebody would benefit from. Terrorists have been brazen enough to attack US diplomatic missions in the past. That's not to say that I think ISIS is attacking US diplomatic missions with sonic weapons, but if we're going to go with the theory that it is, in fact, a sonic weapon, there's no reason to believe that it could only be Russia.
- lawnchair_larry 8y agoThat doesn’t make a lot of sense. The Skirpal incident is very murky, but even if for the sake of argument we assume that the government ordered it, attacks on a traitor who fled the country would not be in any way relevant to an attack on an American in China. I can’t imagine how one would even suspect Russia here. Not to mention, they would be unbelievably stupid to do something that risky for no real gain.
- numbsafari 8y agoPerhaps it's US spy equipment that has been stuxnet'd by a third-party, like Russia or the DPRK or Iran.
- rdiddly 8y agoOne more possibility: US equipment operated intentionally by covert US personnel. Why? Maybe for simple "field testing." Or as a false flag attack. Or in service of some intra-US political goal (power games don't always cross national borders even when they happen in foreign lands - example: Mr. Diplomat is getting too cozy with Cuba/China, or talking to the "wrong people" in Cuba/China, or is getting dangerously close to stumbling on some important information about US activity in Cuba/China). Another possibility since we're already in some pretty cynical territory: The whole thing is made up. That way, you get all the "blaming" benefits of a false flag attack without the expense and risk of pulling off an actual attack. I haven't scrutinized the evidence at all though, if there is any, so if you jump down my throat, do it gently. The Skripal poisoning may be one of these also.
- psychometry 8y agoThey are related in that it's just a case of mass hysteria.
- throwaway5752 8y agoI wish I could be that confident about things that I don't have inside information about! Working against that theory is consistency of the reports, the physiological evidence, and the high likelihood that the affected would be high value espionage targets.
- cpncrunch 8y agoThere isn't actually any physiological evidence in the China case. mTBI can only be diagnosed by symptoms; there are no biomarkers for diagnosing it. The media reports say the symptoms were "subtle and vague, but abnormal, sensations of sound and pressure" that lasted a year. That sounds entirely consistent with a psychiatric explanation. People working in embassies aren't somehow immune to psychiatric issues (and may in fact be more likely to experience things like this, due to the pressures of their work).
- rjurney 8y agoThis does seem the most likely thing. A single traumatic brain injury in china being linked to the shenanigans in Cuba? Seems sketchy at best.
- facetube 8y agoYou have no evidence to support this.
- cpncrunch 8y agoNo, but there is no evidence to support the sonic weapon hypothesis either, and a psychiatric explanation does fit the facts a lot better. Why would a single person in the Chinese embassy suffer the symptoms for over a year, while no other employees experienced it?
- perseusprime11 8y agoSimplest explanation to me seems like some equipment we are using to protect US consulates is interfering with the brains of these employees. For example, isn't it common to use cell phone jamming devices at these places? what effects if any do they have on our brain? We have never studied these effects in detail.
- perseusprime11 8y agoTake a look at this product: https://techcrunch.com/2014/11/03/cocoon/ https://techcrunch.com/2014/11/03/cocoon/ How do we know something like this or an advanced version of such devices that use infra/ultra sonics could not have had adverse side effects?
- perseusprime11 8y agoHere's some research: https://neuroresearchproject.com/2013/02/19/1289/ https://neuroresearchproject.com/2013/02/19/1289/
- solnet99 8y agoA simple google maps search shows that the US Consulate and the Cuban Consulate in Guangzhou are exactly 1 block away from each other. Don't dismiss the Cubans from responsibility.
- Someone1234 8y agoThe Cubans don't make a whole lot of sense as a prime suspect. The first issue occurred right as Cuba was having sanctions lifted, tourists started bringing money in, and things were heading in a positive direction. Cuba was damaged by this incident and it pushed back diplomatic relations potentially years. We cannot discount a rogue element within Cuba of course. Or the Russians/Chinese who may feel they could benefit from worse relations between the US and Cuba. It could also be a complete accident (e.g. faulty counterintelligence equipment).
- solnet99 8y agoYou are too dismissive of the obvious. The Cubans may want the money and the tourists, but the Cuban Government does not. Capitalism weakens socialist/communist governments. If there were some fundamental flaw with equipment, it would happen in plenty of other places...why hasn't this issue come up in consulates in Germany? Why did it start the instant we send diplomats to Cuba? It only happens in countries where operatives would be free to experiment without fear of reprisals from the local government. The proximity of the Cuban Consulate is NOT a coincidence. Cuba may be trying to deflect attention away from themselves by saying 'see, it happened in China too'.
- freeflight 8y ago> Capitalism weakens socialist/communist governments. That's not how any of those work, you are looking at this way too much with an ideological bias.
- Chaebixi 8y ago> Capitalism weakens socialist/communist governments. Tell that to China.
- owenmarshall 8y agoA US based disinformation campaign. Imagine the reactions if North Korean or Iranian diplomats made these same claims.
- facetube 8y agoYou have absolutely no evidence of this, and there have been multiple independent medical examinations and diagnoses.
- owenmarshall 8y ago> You have absolutely no evidence of this I possess the same amount of evidence as those who point to secret Russian spy technology ;) > and there have been multiple independent medical examinations and diagnoses That'd be unremarkable under any of the possible options.
- facetube 8y agoSo you have nothing to refute the available evidence. Thanks for the informative response. Don't make claims in public you can't support.
- owenmarshall 8y ago> available evidence Which is...?
- freeflight 8y agoA single guy, feeling weird sensations in his head, who ended up being diagnosed with a brain injury. Which begs the question: What was there first, the brain injury or the weird sensations? Who's to say his weird sensations are not the result of said brain injury? Which imho is the far more plausible explanation.
- 8y ago
- posterboy 8y ago666. They erased secret information from spy's brains. 667. They were testing a medtec app that can sense incoming strokes and play a tune along 1333. They detected incoming cartilage blockage and prevented stroke by zapping the clot.
- amvalo 8y agoThere used to be people insisting it was mass hysteria. That hypothesis isn't looking so good, IMO.
- freeflight 8y agoIsn't it? Afaik so far this has only been affecting one US employee in China. That same employee was diagnosed with "a mild brain injury", whatever that's even supposed to mean, but he's the only one and he has an injured brain. Couldn't it be that he felt these sensations because of the brain injury and being impressed by what happened in Cuba lead to him making connections that don't exist? People are impressionable like that, that's why the placebo effect, and mass hysteria, are very real things.
- cpncrunch 8y agoThere is no biomarker for mild traumatic brain injury. It is diagnosed based purely on symptoms after a mild concussion. In this case there was no concussion, so the diagnosis seems a bit suspect.
- jonjojr 8y agoWell these are Gov employees so there is a Fringe possibility that has been confirmed to be black projects where Remote viewers attempt to access information through telepathy. Many of the reported symptoms are just like the reported in this article with pressure and weird sound sensations along with nausea and headaches. Some were diagnosed with brain injuries as well. Again this is the tin foil hat projects that many conspiracy theorist claim is still happening today. during WWII Germany Scientist did research on remote viewing.
- noobermin 8y agoI probably shouldn't engage but I'm sure there is no science to remote viewing.
- jonjojr 8y agoI never said there was a Science to it. I said Germany Scientist researched it. Here are a few links that points to Intelligence agency spending tax payer money in the fringe science. https://web.archive.org/web/20080513174112/http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~utts/air2.html https://web.archive.org/web/20080513174112/http://anson.ucda... http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,983829,00.html http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,983829,...
- jt2190 8y agoIt's possible that the U.S. is making the whole thing up, in order to trigger a reaction from their adversaries. An illustration: A parent suspects their child of sneaking out at night while the parent is sleeping. Lacking any evidence, the parent nonetheless declares that they saw the child sneak out! The child admits the wrongdoing, providing the parent with the evidence they lacked.
- narrator 8y ago4. It's a covert war involving tech that neither side wants to disclose. This may be the counterattack for the string of unusual Russian diplomat deaths last year[1]. [1] https://globalnews.ca/news/3693018/russian-diplomats-died-suddenly/ https://globalnews.ca/news/3693018/russian-diplomats-died-su...