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Stopping the RSI pain that almost destroyed my programming career (2016)

• enothereska 8y ago
  Best advice that worked for me: make sure the daily repair is more than the damage. For me that meant more exercise and regular breaks every hour.
• kylnew 8y ago
  Failed Solution #1 has mostly worked for me. I regularly wear a wrist guard and bought an Evoluent vertical mouse and have seen great improvements. The wrist guards actually caught on a bit at my last workplace. I think maybe people were afraid it looked dumb then once it started people realized they should just go for it.
• donquichotte 8y ago
  TL/DR: "I started wearing a sweatshirt and hand warmers at work, and I avoided caffeine on the days I went to the office. The pain went away, and so far hasn’t come back." I understand that keeping back this information is a rethorical tool to force the reader to read the article to the very end, but I believe it is a dishonest strategy of keeping people reading.
  • wierd0 8y ago
    It's probably a retorical tool but not used to trick you into doing something you didn't want to do in the first place but instead used to asure you that all the "ordinary" remedies were visited but they were unhelpful.
  • contravariant 8y ago
    If you're trying to skim the article you really ought to read the beginning and end first.
  • _carl_jung 8y ago
    Do you feel the same way about books?
    • donquichotte 8y ago
      The books I read have non-trivial content and are written in an engaging fashion, so, no, I don't.
  • crummy 8y ago
    Probably the point of the article is not simply to relay information in the simplest information possible but to couch it in a narrative to make it seem more memorable, more enjoyable, and more reliable.
• dmortin 8y ago
  Even healthy people should turn on sticky keys: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_keys https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticky_keys Pressing, Ctrl, Shift, etc. combos strains your hand. With sticky keys you can press key combinations by hitting the keys one after the other, instead of simultaneously.
  • ivanche 8y ago
    A couple of years ago I heard that one should press Shift/Ctrl/Alt using one hand and other key(s) of the combination using the other hand. At first, it was awkward. I had felt that I was soooo slow. But after a week or two I got used to it. Now I can't even imagine going back to using just one hand for the combos and for sure the stress on my wrists is lower.
    • dmortin 8y ago
      Pressing, for example, Ctrl+C is simpler with the left hand only and if one uses sticky keys then it's two separate keypresses, no stressing of the wrists needed.
  • majortennis 8y ago
    sticky keys is a nuisance
• pure-awesome 8y ago
  Hmm, this article makes me think some people's RSI problems may be caused by Raynaud's Disease. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/raynauds-disease/symptoms-causes/syc-20363571 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/raynauds-dise... It's more a description of symptoms than a description of cause, but being able to put a name on it makes it easier to ask about and Google. Basically, anything that can help treat this might be able to help with related RSI.
  • aidos 8y ago
    Both my wife and youngest daughter have Raynaud's. It's really obvious due to the external signs - though, as you say, I'd never have known what it was and that it was a thing before my wife told me about it.
  • jahewson 8y ago
    Worth pointing out that 90% of cases of Raynaud’s occur in women. My wife has it and wears fingerless gloves at her computer in the winter.
• tom_mellior 8y ago
  "At some point during this period I read one of Dr. Sarno’s books. His theory is that long periods of pain are not due to actual injury, but rather an emotional problem causing e.g. muscles to tense up or reduced blood flow. There are quite a few people who have had their pain go away by reading one of his books and doing some mental exercises. [... it works, then it stops working, author makes tenuous connection to the cold in their office...] I started wearing a sweatshirt and hand warmers at work, and I avoided caffeine on the days I went to the office. The pain went away, and so far hasn’t come back." Good for them. Sounds like a particular case, but I guess if you feel uncomfortably cold in your office, you should do something about it.
  • Cthulhu_ 8y ago
    It might be for them that they didn't feel cold as such, just that it was cold enough for blood flow to the extremities to be restricted.
• partycoder 8y ago
  A prioritized list: 0. If you are in pain, stop immediately. 1. Posture: get an ergonomic assessment at work, follow it. A proper posture should not injure you. While typing your wrist should not be at an angle. 2. Stretching: physical therapy will train you to do it correctly. poor stretching will harm you even more. 3. Wrist braces help preventing injury. Ice and ibuprofen can help managing pain. But pain is useful to understand what is harming you. 4. Get ergonomic hardware. A mechanical keyboard can be softer than a regular one.
  • swah 8y ago
    Mechanical ergonomical (angled) keyboards are currently very expensive / rare. I read that many coders are enjoying the Microsoft Sculpt as an alternative.
    • Luc 8y ago
      > Mechanical ergonomical (angled) keyboards are currently very expensive / rare. Yes. Paid close to €400 for a Kinesis Advantage 2, to replace the previous model. Hurts the wallet but better than nerve pain.
      • Cthulhu_ 8y ago
        You'd think an employer would be willing to pay for that too - it's a much better deal than loss of an employee or reduced productivity due to injury. I mean we live in a market where beginning developers make (and by extension, cost the employer) over $100K.
        • VLM 8y ago
          And yet they have to sit in open offices to save $50/month by killing 50%+ of their productivity. So he gets a cool keyboard, means 99 other employees are going to demand their cool little expense like the espresso maker or the dog walking area outside, and because its penny wise and pound foolish, the company would rather infuriate hundreds while destroying productivity, than spend 1% of their salary budget making the employees happy and productive.
• guruz 8y ago
  Related content from a former colleague: http://www.amlie.name/how-i-beat-rsi/ http://www.amlie.name/how-i-beat-rsi/
• danieltillett 8y ago
  My advice is get a soft silicone wrist rest and a silicone mouse rest. I used to get RSI until I got some of these rests and since then I haven't had any issues.
• tejaswiy 8y ago
  I'm not sure how much I agree with this post but what personally worked for me was simply using the mouse with my left hand instead of my right. I play a lot of video games and 15 years of intense clicking has taken its toll on my right hand so I just limit the mileage I put on it now. That's not to say never use your right hand at all - If I was playing some FPS I'd happily switch to using my right hand again but giving it extended periods of rest (by not using the mouse) and hitting tough key combos with my left hand (Cmd + Shift + 4 + Space for a screenshot anyone?) were what made things better for me.
• nileshk 8y ago
  Reading Dr Sarno’s book “The Mindbody Prescription” was what cured me. There was no physical cause. I haven’t had issues since 2001, and I don’t do anything specific to address the physical, the solution is purely psychological (though the symptoms were physical).
  • tom_mellior 8y ago
    Did you really just read the book or did it also tell you to also do something about the "psychological", which you then did?
    • corpMaverick 8y ago
      As strange as it sounds. I think people really improve just by reading the book. Imagine one day you find an itch on your little pinky on your left foot. You never notice it before. Now spend all day thinking about it. Every day. It will be magnified, it will become unbearable. I think the book teaches you to shift your attention.
      • MichaelGG 8y ago
        It's bizarre. I tossed the book away in disgust because it's crazy pseudoscience....and it still worked.
    • jwr 8y ago
      Sometimes just reading the book causes things to change — in my case, symptoms shifted to a different area (a-ha!). Think of it as "telling" your mind that the game is up: you know what it's up to.
  • marsrover 8y ago
    I also dealt with RSI problems that haven't occurred since I read The Mindbody Prescription.
  • fredley 8y ago
    Chiming in because this book saved me too. Step one (as prescribed in the book) is to get thoroughly medically checked out. If a physical cause cannot be found, try this. Doing the free course on the TMS wiki sorted out my problem within a few weeks.
• raverbashing 8y ago
  Ergonomics help, using the mouse less help but what really helped me was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscopic_exercise_tool https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyroscopic_exercise_tool (It takes a bit to get the hang of it though)
  • partycoder 8y ago
    Mousing should not injure you if done properly. Try using your shoulder rather than elbow. A short keyboard (no keypad) can help too.
    • PakG1 8y ago
      Can you explain the biomechanics of what you mean? Not sure how elbows and shoulders relate to proper and improper mousing.
      • saalweachter 8y ago
        I was told myself that you should set your mouse sensitivity to the highest setting possible, so that you basically aren't moving the mouse, so there is no movement of your arm.
      • partycoder 8y ago
        This is advice given to me during an ergonomic assessment.
        • PakG1 8y ago
          Yes, but what was the advice?
          • partycoder 8y ago
            0. Sit straight, arms to the side. Adjust desk and chair so elbows are in a 110 degrees angle. 1. Use a short keyboard (no keypad) so mouse and keyboard can be closer. 2. Move mouse using shoulder rather than elbow.
• seasoup 8y ago
  Around 2004 I started having a sore right wrist. I saw a specialist who said it was a repetitive stress injury and not carpal tunnel. He prescribed some exercises but it didn’t work. I moved to using my left hand to use the mouse, switched to ergonomic keyboards, tried a trackball, fancy ergonomic nice, adjusting my seat height, adjusting my desk height, and nothing worked. When I switched hands, my left wrist became sore too. Finally, finally, I tried using a pen tablet and the soreness disappeared. Turned out the motion that was killing my wrists was clicking the mouse with my finger and pushing my whole hand down to depress the pen instead worked out. I’ve been coding pain free ever since. The way to make a repetitive stress injury heal is to figure out a way to stop making that motion over And over again.
  • dharma1 8y ago
    pen tablet (wacom pads) work for me too. Wouldn't use mouse for a long period anymore
  • koonsolo 8y ago
    I had this wrist pain 2 times in my life. If I would put pressure on that wrist (eg to do pushups), it would hurt like hell. I was always able to fix it by using the keyboard shorcuts more. Navigating to menus with alt etc.
• mnort 8y ago
  other useful books along these lines are Becoming a Supple Leopard, The Body Keeps The Score, anything by Joe Despina In my estimation, especially on the east coast, most people are more tense than they consciously realize I enjoyed that you pointed out avoiding caffeine as a way to detense
  • mnort 8y ago
    that should say Joe Dispenza
• nickjj 8y ago
  I've been using a keyboard for over 20 years and I'm fortunate enough to not have any pain or RSI related issue. I've always used regular stock keyboards and whatever mouse felt comfortable to me (Logitech's G400 fits my hand like a glove). This is even with many years of hardcore clicking and "worst case scenario" things when playing massive gaming sessions back in the day. But, one thing I've always done from the beginning is to make sure my forearms are parallel to the floor. I always make sure my hands are well supported on the keyboard[0], and my elbows are well supported (on a chair's arm rest). One thing that sucks about a standing desk (something I've been using for 2.5 years) is you lose that elbow support since your forearms tend to dangle. [0] This doesn't necessarily mean resting them on the home keys. I don't know how to type properly and over the years developed my own crazy system. I'm pretty sure if anyone saw my typing, ergonomic is the last thing they would describe it as.
  • Cthulhu_ 8y ago
    My main issue with standing desks (and most regular desks actually) is that I like to have the keyboard relatively low (forearms parallel or slightly downward) and the display at eye height (well, top row at eye height, maybe a bit higher); most screens don't go this high. Luckily most of my workplaces have had printers, and where there's printers there's the best monitor stands you can get: packs of A4 paper ;). Anyway I need a few more of those for a standing desk. I'm not a fan of actually supporting elbows, that (for me) would lead me to leaning on them, which leads to 'hanging' and shoulder / neck issues.
    • nickjj 8y ago
      When I had a sit down desk, I always tried to get desks with the keyboard pull out draw. I also much prefer having the keyboard / mouse low, but then I just adjust my chair to also match that height so my forearms rest naturally. Funny enough that's exactly what I used to prop up my monitors too. It's so good because you can fine tune the height by just removing a chunk of sheets. If you sit up straight, the weight should be pretty evenly distributed. It felt like floating on air. In the end I guess that's what matters. Try to find a set up that puts absolutely no strain on your forearms, wrists and hands.
• clircle 8y ago
  For Emacs users, common wisdom is to swap control and caps. I urge you to try swapping left control with left alt instead. Thus you can use your left thumb to hit control and right thumb to hit Meta (alt). Map Esc to capslock if you use Evil-mode. Linux commands for x windows: setxkbmap -option 'caps:escape' setxkbmap -option 'ctrl:swap_lalt_lctl' This works well for me and would probably work even better if my keyboard had big alt keys. Edit, as another user said, everyone should probably be using sticky keys. On linux I run xkbset sticky -twokey -latchlock on login with Xorg. Sorry, not sure how to do this under Wayland.
  • willtim 8y ago
    Excellent advice. I also swap control and alt on both sides. This means I can reduce the amount of chording needed and use alternate hands together.
    • platz 8y ago
      I never want to reach for control again. I map alt to CapsLock, and control to alt
    • clircle 8y ago
      Interesting. How do you hit the Meta key if you swap on both sides? With a pinky?
      • willtim 8y ago
        Normally, I use a Kinesis, so it would be thumbs for both. But on my laptop, yes I would use pinkies for both shift and alt.
  • Pimpus 8y ago
    Great advice. Hitting modifier keys with the thumb is how Emacs is meant to be used, in my opinion. It's the strongest finger, after all. > For Emacs users, common wisdom is to swap control and caps. This is terrible advice and it causes so much unnecessary pain. - The pinkie is the weakest finger. - Stretching sideways is a terrible movement. Try it several times and compare it to moving a finger up, or curling the thumb. Stretching sideways should be reserved for infrequent actions -- hitting a modifier key is much too frequent for Emacs users. - You should have modifier keys on BOTH sides of the keyboard. Using Emacs with just one Ctrl key is just... awkward. There are so many common keybindings (like C-x C-c) that are difficult with this scheme. With Ctrl to the left and right of the keyboard, however, I can just curl my right thumb a bit and then press x and c. If you have RSI, maybe one of your hands is overworked (i.e. you only use Shift with one hand). Big opportunity for improvement there. Unfortunately not all modern keyboards have modifier keys on both sides of the keyboard, so you definitely have to watch out for this when e.g. buying a laptop. With the key system you suggest, Emacs bindings are even better even than Vi modal editing, in my opinion. Pressing/lifting a thumb is much easier than changing editing modes.
• jlarsen 8y ago
  I'd like to throw my two cents in here: strength training. I started having problems with RSI about five years ago, and I tried and failed to get relief from quite a few different things, including the Mindbody Prescription, but what ultimately helped me the most was arm and grip exercises: pull ups, deadlifts, farmer's walks. If you're going to do _anything_ for 8 hours a day, even sitting, you should be taking measures to make sure it doesn't impact your health.
  • protonimitate 8y ago
    Every time I see someone mention strength training around here I have to jump in and agree - it is the single greatest improvement I've made to my lifestyle thus far. Lifting weights has the best return on time invested I've experienced, period. You can make progress and eliminate 90% of physical discomfort with 3 hours in the gym a week. All you really need are the main compounds. Throw in a couple cardio sessions if you're feeling ambitious and you will gift yourself years back onto your life and avoid all sorts of aches and pains.
    • gnur 8y ago
      Do you have any sort of routine you can recommend?
      • schrodinger 8y ago
        There's probably people more qualified than I am that can respond, but I have heard a lot of recommendations for and enjoyed https://stronglifts.com/5x5/ https://stronglifts.com/5x5/ Note: I see Starting Strength recommended here too, which I've also heard good things about from my experienced weightlifting friends. I think they're very similar programs, and that book has a lot of good detail on technique.
        • SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
          Starting strength and stronglifts are strongly interchangeable the biggest difference is the volume - starting strength is a 5x3 and stronglifts is 5x5 and stronglifts has a row while starting strength has a power clean. For learning starting strength the book is invaluable as the author describes each lift in exhausting detail, and that's important to understand when you're starting - every day in the gym I see people squatting who should have read some instructions. I'd argue that at the novice range the extra two sets of volume aren't required - you will literally adapt to anything at this point. That's why there are so many programs that people feel great on for the first three months before they stop making progress. I do, however, like the row instead of the power clean, as many gyms don't have a setup for a power clean, and it's a technically challenging movement. Many years ago when I first started I did starting strength with a row substituted for the power clean, and that took me a good 8 months before I stopped making progress, at which point I jumped over to a 5x5 intermediate program.
• willtim 8y ago
  I wholeheartedly recommend the excellent Kinesis Advantage 2. It's relatively expensive for a keyboard, but absolutely worth the money for anyone who uses a keyboard professionally for hours every day. It also has featureful firmware and the ability to remap keys in hardware. I wish I had purchased one years ago. My typing is faster and feels like much less effort.
  • Cthulhu_ 8y ago
    I want to get me one of those, but I tend to use my mouse a lot; it's more aimed at people that can actually use keyboard-only interfaces I think. I've got a (tenkeyless) wireless mac keyboard, the low profile really works for me. Wouldn't mind if it was a split keyboard though.
    • dwringer 8y ago
      The Advantage layout is definitely one that sort of insists on two hands if you want to reach anything that the right hand types regularly and/or you want to use the arrow keys. The keywells are open on the outside edge, so it is pretty easy to slide one's hand over onto a mouse or trackball, but I agree that a conventional layout has at least some advantage there (I think a split keyboard would fall somewhere in the middle). I don't find it to be much of an issue in practice, because I use the Advantage 2 along with a CST L-Trac trackball, which sits right beside the keyboard and can be operated with just a couple of fingers. They have a model which can accept external buttons, which is the one I got, so I also have duplicated the LMB and RMB next to the other side of the keyboard. In this way I could theoretically use the cursor with my left pinky and click with the right pinky without taking my hands off the keyboard, although it's not particularly effective (or necessary). FWIW I am someone who uses mouse-driven interfaces all the time, although I guess emacs more than makes up for it with the amount of keyboard activity it demands.
    • jasonlotito 8y ago
      Kineses also has something called the Freestyle, which you might consider looking at. I have one for work and one for home.
  • 8y ago
• xtf 8y ago
  Roberts Space Industries was more known to me then Repetitive-Strain-Injury and fits too.
• gaius 8y ago
  I felt the first twinges of carpal tunnel years ago and switching from the crappy “free” keyboards you get with any PC to a quality Cherry keyboard cleared it up immediately. G80-11900 is my favourite.
  • clircle 8y ago
    Which switch did you use? I find that mechanical keyboards often cause more pain since many keys require a lot of force to activate.
    • gaius 8y ago
      Using black at the moment, I have also used red.
      • clircle 8y ago
        Thanks, I may try one of those. Which did you like better and why? I'm used to using Browns, which I find to be okay, but I really dislike Blue switches.
        • gaius 8y ago
          I think on balance I like the Black better, but the switch isn’t the only factor - the layout of the Touchboard on which I have black is different from the MX Board in which I have red.
• jdietrich 8y ago
  There might be something to the cold hands thing. Handwarmers are a ubiquitous accessory in the esports community. http://businessinsider.com/esports-hand-warmers-2015-8 http://businessinsider.com/esports-hand-warmers-2015-8
  • Uberphallus 8y ago
    Having been a gamer (long ago), and a developer now, cold hands directly impacted reaction time and precision, which in turn made one "get pwn'd". But I didn't feel like it hurt more (or at all, no RSI problems here, cross fingers).
  • graeme 8y ago
    I attribute my initial RSI to typing a large amount (live transcription) in a very air conditioned room on a table that was too high. Within three days I couldn't type without pain. The height and volume alone may have done it, but the cold felt like it was bad for my arms.
• teknico 8y ago
  Good keyboards and pointer devices are not as expensive anymore, both in money and learning time terms. My picks: Kinesis Freestyle Edge (never mind the "Gaming" slant): https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ A big-ball trackball (not the thumb-operated ones): https://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/trackballs https://www.kensington.com/us/us/4493/trackballs
• pasta 8y ago
  The cause of RSI is bad blood flow in your arm (starting at your neck). So you have to figure out why blood flow is bad. And this might be different from person to person. Some personal experiences: * Bad posture. * Stress causing neck muscles to block blood flow. * Working too long.
• melling 8y ago
  No one knows what causes RSI. It might be multiple problems. Anyway, on Github I’ve collected several dozen articles and created a table of things people have tried. https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes My personal feeling is that if programmers embraced voice input, simply not having to type when issues arise would help. Of course, most programmers will rant about how keyboards are so much more efficient, which they might be until you can’t use one. Here’s the current state of voice programming: https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/programming_by_voice.org https://github.com/melling/ErgonomicNotes/blob/master/progra...
  • coaxial 8y ago
    Interesting, voice programming would also solve the open space office problem.
    • lunixbochs 8y ago
      I'm afraid of the pressure happening the other way - I think open office plans reduce the chance of people trying voice programming. People in the community specifically talk about working from home or asking for private office space. There's also the Stenomask, which I've heard works great for dictation.
  • paulryanrogers 8y ago
    Voice input helped me recover in the past. It was a challenge to get a workable setup, and getting back to the same speed takes a lot of tweaking and experimenting. Sadly the CPU load and maintaining the setup with ever changing OSes has been too much. Though I do still maintain easier keyboard shortcuts almost religiously. AutoHotKey and Karabinder FTW. Perhaps dedicated voice hardware can help.
    • lunixbochs 8y ago
      I've designed Talon (my voice / alt input project) from the ground up for cross-platform scripts/configs. Once I port the OS layer to Windows/Linux you should be able to reuse mostly everything (with some app/os-specific stuff overridden at whatever abstraction layer it makes sense). What sort of CPU load are you seeing? I'm able to dictate on battery, peaks averaging ~20% cpu. (Dragon is a different beast, peaking to >80% anytime it's over the noise threshold, so you need a really good mic to get good battery life).
• randomsearch 8y ago
  My experience: 1. Get ibuprofen for the pain. 2. Cut down on time at the machine. Use the minimum you need. 3. Stop using your phone/tablet so much. 4. Start walking as much as possible. You will not believe how much this helps. 5. Change your mouse. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wireless-Vertical-Ergonomic-Optical-1600DPI/dp/B00BIFNTMC/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wireless-Vertical-Ergonomic-Optical... 6. Go see a physio for advice on exercises. 7. Swimming for long-term strength and prevention. It's worth adding that stress can be a significant factor, so if you're stressed you should address that too.
• YCode 8y ago
  As a software solution there's a free program called Workrave that will help time micro breaks, stretches, etc. I find it's helpful to have actual timers and reminders and it sort of helps me keep pace on how fast the day is going and how much time I have left.
• codingdave 8y ago
  My RSI ended up being due to an anomaly in the structure of the sheath my tendons pass through. I went through doctors, NSAIDs, cortisone shots, physical therapy, and all the ergonomic adjustments you can think of. Finally, a surgeon just 'fixed the glitch'. All the other advice is still good advice -- but sometimes you have a mechanical problem, so dropping conversations with doctors just because their first treatment failed may not be the right move - there are further actions to explore. And if nothing is working, it is worth finding out whether there is a deeper underlying problem to resolve.
  • cache_miss 8y ago
    Can you elaborate on how the issue was found? I've been through similar treatments, even had carpal tunnel release just to see if it would help (it didn't). How would you describe the pain? All of mine is in the fingers, exclusively. No wrist pain.
    • codingdave 8y ago
      I initially went in because my wrist was hurting when I coded all day, sometimes shooting up my forearm. At the first appointment, they had me put my thumb inside my fist, and try to move my hand down (Finkelstein's test) - I had no motion and lots of pain, so the diagnosis was easy - DeQuervain's syndrome... totally different than carpal tunnel, but still an RSI coders get. For most people, it heals easily, but not in all cases: We went through the standard steps for this problem - rest, ergonomic changes, a cortisone shot, then physical therapy. Nothing worked, so I consulted a surgeon, who gave me an additional shot with more expertise in exactly where to give it. That actually helped for 6 months, but when I called back after the pain recurred, they said surgery is the last resort, but also the best option in my specific case, as it is a simple fix and almost always works. During the surgery, they found that my tendon sheaths were bisected, leaving less room than normal for movement through the wrist. As far as the pain, it was very focused on the side of my wrist at the base of my thumb, in particular when moving the hand to the outside of the wrist. All that being said, the bigger lesson I got from it all is that not all RSI pain is the same problem. Hand specialists know how to tell the difference between all the problems and can give you guidance on which treatment will help. At the same time, general practitioners do not have the same level of knowledge, and may waste your time running you through treatments that won't work. So if you are having problems... ask a hand/wrist specialist for help.
• sandGorgon 8y ago
  The Sarno thing worked for me and for another friend of mine. I can personally vouch for it. It was seriously bad and now I don't even have it.
• fnord123 8y ago
  I used to have RSI. Then I stopped using Emacs and it went away. It flared up one time when I had to do some data entry in Excel; but then I learned the hotkeys and it went away again. Just stop using emacs, people. It's literally damaging you! -vim user
  • microcolonel 8y ago
    That's an interesting conclusion, I find I do a lot less chording than your average Emacs user. Maybe the problem is chording. I've not yet had any issues (though I am also a Dvorak user, and a buckling spring user). I think today's Emacs is set up in a way that could cause problems on keyboards where the left Ctrl is not on the corner.
    • imgabe 8y ago
      I can't imagine using emacs and not swapping ctrl and caps lock. It's one of the first things I do on any computer I get.
  • cache_miss 8y ago
    Similarly, I switched from vim to GUI editors for the same reason.
  • fovc 8y ago
    Or give god-mode or evil a try. I use god-mode but found that capitalizing letters using the shift key was the biggest cause of pain for me. I retrained my left hand to use the ring finger for shift and added a post-command-hook to turn ",x" into "X", and the problem is largely gone. I also make a point to swap _ and - and also ; and : in certain modes (ahem Python) . My right pinky is still too active (RET and punctuation, but I rarely get any pain, even with a tiny laptop keyboard
  • vemv 8y ago
    I use Emacs but also completely 'hijacked' the way it works with keyboard shortcuts, making it similar to a GUI editor and ignoring/disabling typically emacs-y chords. Good thing being that Emacs is powerful enough to completely change itself without much effort.
• graeme 8y ago
  I had bad RSI in 2010/2011 that I cured. Then it came back in a mild but tolerable form for several years. Last summer it exploded again, and I took steps to solve it more permanently. Here's what has worked for me: * Highly skilled physio who did MAT. Most physios did nothing for the problem. But, I found one who had been the physio for the local pro football team. Unlike the others, he didn't use ultrasound. * Trigger point therapy massage. Far more effective than regular massage. Hard to find a good practitioner * Handshoe mouse. A lot of my troubles were causes by mousing or trackpads. This mouse has been astonishingly comfortable. I think it forces you to use the shoulder and have good wrist flexion * Using the keyboard I used while recovering. I tried any number of mechanical and ergo keyboards, but then remembered that in 2011 I had comfortably types a million words while recovering. I checked and found I had used the logitech MK320. I bought it again and have been able to type more. No idea why this cheap rubber dome keyboard has been so good for me * External monitor raised up. After recovering, I switched to a mac and used laptops. Using it as a laptop was dumb; while recovering I had an external raised up. I did this again and I think the improved neck posture helps. I was already doing weight lifting, so the "get strong" advice you commonly see in these threads didn't apply. Though I think the problem would have been worse without it. Also, I find mobile phone use can contribute. I hold mine with my pinky, and this leads to strain. I haven't figured out how to hold them well, because they should be up near eye level to prevent neck strain. Can anyone tell me how to make lists that doesn't format as a code block? Double spacing seems to be the only way not to have list items all on the same line.
  • weavie 8y ago
    What does the Handshoe mouse do that makes it cost > £100?
    • graeme 8y ago
      It's very large, so your hand just sort of rests on it. You don't need to grip it, unlike other mice. Also due to the form I find I'm forced to keep my wrist in a good position, and basically can't use it to move the mouse. Instead I have to use my shoulder.
  • 8y ago
• Twirrim 8y ago
  I used to get RSI, then I switched to a Microsoft Natural Keyboard about a decade and a half ago (I'll be sad if this line ever goes away), and my issues went away. At every job I've had, I find the same thing happens. I start, and have a normal keyboard. Within a few weeks the RSI is back again. I expense a Natural Keyboard, switch to it and the RSI goes away again. This last job change was way more dramatic. They gave me a magic keyboard. Those things are a cramped, ergonomic nightmare. My RSI came back within a single day of typing on the damn thing. I had to get rid of the magic mouse for similar reasons too (arching your finger and wrist, like you need to do to tap it, is similarly bad)
  • bobjordan 8y ago
    Couldn't agree more. Use both the keyboard and the mouse and have stockpiled a few extra sets. Without them, there is no way I can log 30+ hrs of Wakatime tracked programming per week. But I also know, from a previous stint in muscle rehab for my back, strength training can solve all the problems.
  • microcolonel 8y ago
    It really can not be overstated how inhumane Apple's desktop peripherals are. I honestly can't think of worse mice or keyboards.
  • paulirwin 8y ago
    I've found the Microsoft Comfort Curve 3000 to be a good hybrid between a standard keyboard and a natural one. It has the curve that puts your wrists in the better posture, without the split so it's easy to get used to, and I like that the keys don't have as much travel so you don't have to press down as hard. Unfortunately they seem to have discontinued it. I had picked up two a few years back for $20 each on Amazon, but now they're going for $100 on Amazon and eBay which makes no sense for a basic wired keyboard. It must be because of scarce supply and high demand.
  • walshemj 8y ago
    I found that when I started using a mac mini pinkie finger started to ache so got an old ps2 ms mouse the curved soap bar type and a usb to ps adaptor I also swapped to an old zenith keyboard from 20 years ago.
• attaboyjon 8y ago
  I solved my problem by getting serious massage therapy. For a long time I thought I had carpal tunnel, but the real problem was super tight muscles in my back and shoulder. After one painful massage the burning, tingling and pain in my hand and wrist was gone. Outside of getting an occasional massage, the answer was a regular routing of weightlifting.
• watmough 8y ago
  My experience of eliminating RSI: 1) Consider getting a big trackball and learning to use it with your wrong hand, 2) Get a better keyboard, 3) Work slower, 4) Walk as much as you can, 5) Lose weight, 6) Manage stress. In common with many others, I believe there's an emotional and/or stress context to pain, and you need to fight conditions such as RSI on multiple fronts.
• jwr 8y ago
  As a data point, I had "RSI" wrist pain for many years, and finally determined that it was psychosomatic. Sarno is spot on — I've been pain-free for the last 10 years after understanding the real cause. If you have symptoms which are not easily explainable, and especially if they vary, it is worth taking the effort to read his books.
• mherrmann 8y ago
  What helps me: 1. Ergonomical keyboard and vertical mouse 2. QFMLWY instead of QWERTY [1] 3. Massaging forearms with a Lacrosse ball 4. Strength training: climbing or "rolling" a long barbell held behind back. 5. Theraband exercises [1]: http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization
• eli 8y ago
  Eliminating the use of a mouse and replacing it with a Wacom tablet dramatically improved my symptoms. So much for my backup career as a eSports gamer.
• disease 8y ago
  I may just be imagining things, but it seems a disproportionate number of RSI-suffering programmers use emacs. From my own experience, I suffered the worst RSI of my life while using vim. It subsided a bit when I moved to Sublime and almost completely went away from I switched to VS Code. Obviously correlation does not imply causation and I have taken a number of other steps to fight RSI (ergo keyboard, heavy keyboard remapping) throughout the years.
  • smaddox 8y ago
    Did these editor changes correlate with any other life changes, e.g. job change?
• eggie 8y ago
  I had the same kind of problem. For me resolving the issue was as simple as learning and using the dvorak layout. Having a different and entirely more efficient way to type completely resolved the problems I was having. This in combination with a typematrix keyboard has ensured that I never once experienced hand pain in more than ten years working with code. Before, when using QWERTY on a regular keyboard, I reached a point where I could no longer type at all without pain. Although I code I mostly write prose and messages. After switching I can type on QWERTY without pain as the original injuries healed, but I can feel after several hours how difficult and uncomfortable it is to type on that layout. If you're at a point where you can no longer type why wouldn't you consider changing the layout of your keyboard? Even if it's to something substandard in many ways it at least ensures you use your hands and arms in different patterns. It's also a nice exercise for the mind.
• fermigier 8y ago
  I've had RSI 20 years ago for about 1 year. At the time, my life basically revolved around two activities, both known to have an impact on RSI (and more specifically, CTS): programming / surfing the Web, and playing the bass. Cold temp, as in the OP, was probably one of the issues. It went away, and didn't reappear since, by using open glove when typing / playing the bass, and doing some hands / wrist stretches before / during work and practice.
• ninjakeyboard 8y ago
  I did a few things to stop my RSI pain: 1) Use an alt keyboard layout. Use colemac. It's easier to learn than dvorak and decreases finger travel at the keyboard 2) Stop using a mouse. I used a trackball for a while but it has its own issues. I use a cheap wacom bamboo tablet now. It's far and above more ergonomic than any other device I've used as a pointer. 3) Use a kinesis advantage. Blank keycaps for style points. 4) Use your left hand. I use the wacom bamboo tablet with my left hand (I'm right handed.) This has had amazing results for me personally with the wacom because my left wrist does not bent/turn at all - I move entirely from my elbow primarily because I'm not that dextrous with my left hand. I did them in that order but I'd recommend swapping the keyboard and mouse first, as they have the biggest bang for the buck in terms of ergonomics. The alt keyboard layout is marginal. Left hand was big for me personally. All of these items take some time and effort, in particular learning another keyboard layout. And the kinesis also has a relatively steep learning curve relative to other keyboards. Don't do it all at once - it's a multi year journey but hey - no more hand pain! I still use a regular tenkeyless mechanical keyboard and mouse at home in the studio, and obviously carry a laptop for work, but my use of these is fairly infrequent relative to the 40+ hours a week at my desk at work.
  • arafa 8y ago
    My experience was definitely different. Just switching my keyboard layout to Dvorak was enough to slay my RSI. It's been 15 years with no pain since. I've done all the others on this list, they didn't seem to have an impact for me.
    • ninjakeyboard 8y ago
      I will experience wristpain if I use my tenkeyless w/ colemak. My laptop keyboard doesn't seem to bother me as much though.
  • ryan-c 8y ago
    How long did it take you to learn colemac? > 3) Use a kinesis advantage. Blank keycaps for style points. These keyboards are quite expensive, but totally worth it. My previous employer offered them as one of several keyboard options. I went with it due to some pain, it took maybe 6 weeks to used to the layout. Ended up buying one a few months later when they went on sale (usually 10% off around black Friday), as my pain had gotten dramatically better. The company that makes them is also pretty hacker friendly - they sell spare parts and they've been willing to help people who want to make custom controllers for their keyboards. I actually hacked a trackpoint (harvested from an old IBM desktop keyboard) into my kinesis and used that for a while, but due to the way the sensor works it really needs a solid mounting to work well which I just couldn't achieve. I personally have had decent luck with a vertical mouse (anker makes a cheapish one that works fine).
• jstewartmobile 8y ago
  When I saw RSI in the title, first thing I thought was "emacs!" Sure enough, emacs.
• cptskippy 8y ago
  I was starting to have RSI related issues. My pinky and ring finger were going numb, tingles up my wrist, and sore wrists. A lower desk and an ergonomic chair did wonders and I no longer have issues.
• moosehawk 8y ago
  There are a lot of "what worked for me in here" and that's great, but I want to stress that people need to consider seeing a physician, and possibly an OTR/L several times. The anatomy of your arms are more complicated than you think and any number of issues can cause pain, weakness, tingling or numbness. These people work with these issues 40+ hours a week and are more equipped to target and fix the issue sooner than you are on your own. Sometimes it's just one lifestyle choice you need to change to improve your health (e.g. posture), but for some people it's more complicated than that. Everyone's physiology is just a little bit different and responds differently to different treatments.
  • T2_t2 8y ago
    Absolutely, but in the complete opposite direction, don't give up looking for answers. The quality of people you see, and their willingness to look for answers, will vary DRAMATICALLY. There is joke, what do you call the person who finished last in medicine? Doctor. If no one is finding an answer to your problem, dedicated research yourself is liable to be a LOT more effective than ten minutes with a trained professional who is not that interested or willing to do any real research.
    • Bartweiss 8y ago
      There are a whole range of issues where PCPs tend to be very poor support. In particular, disorders which are not life threatening, have no clearcut sign or single 'cure', and don't have an obvious class of specialists to handle them. As someone else said here, PCPs are 'switchboard operators' - but these issues are rare requests with no obvious person to forward you to. It's not especially their fault, this is how triage works, but it means "go ask your doctor" has an unusually low success rate. Joint and chronic pain definitely count, as do lots of intestinal issues, unclear-cause headaches, and so on. Maybe you need a surgeon, or else a physical therapist; maybe a nutritionist, or else an allergist; maybe a neurologist, or else a psychiatrist. These sorts of problems seem to require a willingness to try many things, talk to a bunch of different people, and potentially push back on a doctor who's only recommending one path.
  • melling 8y ago
• emtel 8y ago
  I've never had RSI severe enough to have to stop working because of it, but the minor issues I once had were completely cured by taking up indoor rock climbing. Of course I don't know exactly why it worked, but my guess is that a) it massively increases blood flow into your forearms and hands, and b) it strengthens all the small muscles and tendons in your forearms and hands so much that typing and other movements don't even register as "strain" anymore. If you start climbing, start slow and easy and build very slowly, especially if you are an athletic person who is used to improving fast and pushing yourself. The tendons in your fingers get stronger much more slowly than you expect.
• mmjaa 8y ago
  The #1 thing that has always worked for me, and I've been addressing this for years .. since 1983 .. has been to switch things up.. Change my keyboard at least twice a year. You know that whole vim vs. emacs debate? Actually, thats really healthy for you. If you don't wanna have sore knuckles every week, use both. It really helps to switch it up. In 1984, I was mostly a user of 8-bit style keyboard systems. Had MSX, had British-8bit, had a bit of American.. In the 90's I had a lot of American. I mean, who hasn't had a bit of IBM or Cherry or two, amirightkids? All through this period, there were periphery effects where I could observe my hands saying, enough is enough. Please do something else for a while so pathways can be repaired. So, I did it. I've pushed all kinds of switches in response. Turns out, this is good for all kinds of other reasons too (pollygots ftw) and so on. But every year I think to myself, how well are my hands behaving? And the answer always comes back to, did I upgrade my main machine this year? (Disclaimer: ready to ditch Apple and go with someone else, unibody..)
  • godshatter 8y ago
    I did something similar back in 1997 or so. Instead of switching keyboards or input programs, I switched keyboard layouts. I switched to dvorak, and (after a month or two where I couldn't type well in either layout) the pain went away and hasn't come back. I use qwerty at work and dvorak at home now.
• desireco42 8y ago
  Pretty much as a rule, you will find Emacs users with wrapped wrists. When you point out that editor of choice might be the cause, you will hear all kinds of explanations and excuses. They are also biggest market for Kinesis and other ergonomic products. I had few times wrist pain and it is usually due to mismatch of height of the desk and the chair.
• robk 8y ago
  Kinesis keyboard was a lifesaver for me.
• ben7799 8y ago
  Everyone has a different anecdotal experience. I hurt the ulnar nerve in my left hand in 2013 bicycling. The doctor put me into a brace and put me on some strong muscle relaxants for 2 weeks. I went to work and typed with the brace on under the influence of the drugs. I already had a long history (20+ years of regular weight training) and was really fit. I had previous moments of discomfort over the years from bad keyboards or overly cold office environments and such but nothing serious. This was at a point where I'd been on the computer a lot for 20 years or so. When I got out of the brace and off the drugs I immediately had full blown RSI in both arms. According to the doctor it looked like I had tendonitis in the flexor muscles. I went through everything they asked and nothing worked. I could "manage" but was annoyed every day at work. All kinds of keyboards and pointing devices didn't help much. The most helpful thing was using a foam roller to massage the muscles of my forearms. This was not something suggested by the doctors or PT, which was really annoying. The foam roller works better than having a person massage your arms or use the ultrasound treatment on your arms. Most of the physical exercises they prescribed & stretching made things worse! At some point I discovered drinking black/green tea was causing the muscles in my arms to tighten up. It was causing it throughout my whole body but for some reason that didn't really cause any symptoms in other parts of my body. When I eliminated the tea the symptoms started going away within a day or two and then my forearms slowly got stronger and stronger over time. I was able to get back to all the exercise/weight training/cycling, etc.. pretty quickly. I had never really stopped the exercise anyway but it always caused inflammation until I got off the tea. Maybe the tea had a circulatory effect on me, who knows. It was not caffeine. I can drink all the coffee/soda/energy drinks I want without the symptoms returning. I don't drink that much of them but whatever it was, it's not caffeine, it's one of the other compounds in tea, of which there are a lot and of which most are not that well understood.
• yedava 8y ago
  The cause of my RSI was using arm rests on the chair and resting the wrists on the desk. It led to scrunching up my shoulders which ended up causing severe neck and shoulder soreness. This setup also caused pain in the underside of my forearm when using the mouse for extended periods of time. So I got rid off arm rests on my chair and put the keyboard and mouse on a tray and put the tray on my lap. That was the neutral resting position for my arms. And it got rid of my RSI for the most part. If you've tried other options for your RSI and still can't find respite, check if typing from your lap alleviates pain. You can test this using a laptop. If using your laptop on your lap for long periods feels less stressful as opposed to typing and mousing from your desk, it means the least stressful position for your arms is at the level of your lap.
• joelthelion 8y ago
  I've used Workrave (http://www.workrave.org/ http://www.workrave.org/) with success for light RSI symptoms. It's a small piece of software that prompts you to take regular breaks from the computer. It's a bit cumbersome, but being forced to move away from the computer every now and then also has its advantages.
• molteanu 8y ago
  I still don't understand why palm-pressing[1] the Ctrl key in Emacs is not a thing. No pain, no stretching, and you can make use of both left and right Ctrl. Lately I'm even using a Ctrl+Shift combination, both pressed with the palm at the same time. Xah Lee was not wrong about it. It was actually the most important thing I've learned from his website. Take it, use it, learn it and I promise you, after a month or two, it's muscle memory, it's natural and pain free. [1] http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_pinky.html
• wallflower 8y ago
  This post is for those who believe that they will never get RSI symptoms. Don't be foolish. I spent my teens and twenties pounding away at a keyboard with a slouch and bad posture. No pain. Eventually it got to a point where my forearms experienced soreness after a long binge of typing. Luckily, a night of rest "solved" the problem. Then, the recovery period became longer - a weekend, three days, using a heat pack. Finally, and this is the reason why I am writing this, the soreness never went away. Once you pass a certain point with active denial, your body gets damaged. Like another poster mentioned, at that point you need to spend equal time counteracting the effects of what you did with something like functional fitness or strength training. RSI once it reaches a certain point, like most problems in life, does not go away. It can only be managed. All the advice and personal experiences shared here is good but keep in mind that the best time to manage RSI is before symptoms appear. Don't fall for the premise that there is a solution for RSI without addressing the root cause, continually and daily.
• VectorLock 8y ago
  I started getting RSI in the early 2000s and switching to a Kinesis Advantage fixed it all. Occasionally I get sore when I use my laptop without the Kinesis for extended periods of time, but the Kinesis is all I need. I think also using a trackball helps a lot as well.
• m3kw9 8y ago
  What worked for me was to do more stretches on the forearms there was one that was particularly useful in helping to release the ulnar nerve.
• m3kw9 8y ago
  I’ve heard of docs that prescribed serotonin and anti depressant medications to attempt to fix pain issues
• chaoticmass 8y ago
  I used to get bad pain in my right shoulder from using a mouse. I switched to a keyboard that doesn't have a num pad so that I don't have to reach so far to use the mouse and haven't had pain since.
• hobie 8y ago
  I couldn't use a computer for 9 years. Then I followed "The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook: Your Self-Treatment Guide for Pain Relief" by Clair Davies. Within 3 days I could type for 1 minute, within 9 months I could work again, but with occasional relapses. It is still the best $30 I ever spent.
• ulisesrmzroche 8y ago
  For me it was riding a motorcycle again: pressing the clutch over and over again healed it, although I don’t recommend it because I almost fell a couple times.
• thomastjeffery 8y ago
  > a Kinesis Advantage keyboard There are a lot of nice alternatives to this, too. If you are happy spending >$300 on a keyboard, https://shop.keyboard.io/ https://shop.keyboard.io/ is definitely worth looking into. If you are feeling more frugal, there are all kinds of options. Anything "ortholinear" is an improvement. We don't need typewriter-staggered layouts. Anything that puts modifier keys near the thumbs instead of palms is also helpful. Here are some great open-source designs: https://olkb.com/planck https://olkb.com/planck https://www.ergodox.io/ https://www.ergodox.io/ https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard