4 ms·

In Norway, we tend to follow a non-aggressive approach to prison and despite much higher standards than say in the US, the cost per prisoner isn't significantly

In Norway, we tend to follow a non-aggressive approach to prison and despite much higher standards than say in the US, the cost per prisoner isn't significantly higher. Prison guards in Norway are essentially university educated social workers. American prison guards from what I've read are essentially just guys with a stick. They just get a couple of weeks of training. Guards in Norway work closely with prisoners and do activities with them and get to know them. This leads to lower levels of aggression. I've seen accounts of other European visiting Norwegian prisons remarking how much more calm the atmosphere is. When you lock up people and treat them as animals you create anger, resentment and aggression which they take out on each other or the guards if given the opportunity. I believe this is a principle which applies to all walks of life including how you raise children. Children who live under strict regimes which are heavily focused on punishment don't act well. They easily become violent and lack self control. If there is always an overwhelming force present to punish every transgression you make, all you learn is to be behave when you are under threat. When that control is gone you have no ability to control yourself.

assblaster 8y ago
How do Norway prisons deal with formation of gangs, which are essentially small businesses that seek to "disrupt" the prison economy?
- jasonmaydie 8y ago
  Norway has a relatively low level of crime, it's probably a factor in their successful prison system
  - EliRivers 8y ago
    And their successful prison system is a factor in the relatively low level of crime.
    - assblaster 8y ago
      But why aren't gangs forming in Norway? Lack of poverty? Lack of substantial immigration? In other words, why isn't MS13 infiltrating Norway, if there's no competition for their illegal activities? In the United States, for instance, there's a huge market for gang formation, and gangs thrive despite constant fighting for territory.
      - EliRivers 8y ago
        I'm sure it justifies a much more nuanced consideration, but at a crude economic level, I suspect gangs provide protection and economic opportunity in exchange for physical and legal risks; Norway provides both of those opportunities, to a high degree and to a broad section of society (social mobility in Norway is high), with much lower physical and legal risks attached, so there is competition for what gangs provide.
        jeffreyrogers 8y ago
        Also a very homogeneous population. Crime is higher among recent immigrants/refugees and their children[0]. It's hard to tease out how much is due to the prison/legal/welfare system and how much is due to the composition of society. Plus, it's a tough thing to debate openly because of accusations of racism, xenophobia, etc. In any case, it's certainly true that the US prison system is not very effective at reforming criminals and I'm sure the conditions are often appalling. [0]: https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikler-og-publikasjoner/_attachment/332143?_ts=16035d6f0d8 https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikl... (mostly in Norwegian, but some parts in English)
        krageon 8y ago
        Saying "foreigners are more often criminals", while not necessarily xenophobic in nature (as in, you don't have to have strictly xenophobic thoughts to come to such a conclusion), doesn't lead to a nice and balanced conversation. That is leaving aside the correlation/causation dilemma which you're just sidestepping here (it's correlative, not causative - unless you have some sort of proof for that, which I doubt).
- vidarh 8y ago
  I've never heard it mentioned as an issue. But consider that prison sentences in Norway are typically short, coupled with substantial rebates for good behaviour - as well as rewards such as chances at even more lenient conditions, and a system where prisoners start getting leave etc. That adds up to a lot of downsides to breaking the rules.
- grasshopperpurp 8y ago
  >How Norwegians and Americans See Inequality Differently >“In Norway, people very much disapprove of inequalities that are due to bad luck,” Bertil Tungodden, a professor at the Norwegian School of Economics, and one of the paper’s authors, told me. “People in the U.S. are more willing to accept inequality, even if it reflects pure good luck for some and pure bad luck for others.” Less of a problem because inequality is lower, and fewer people feel the need to join gangs for protection/to get by. Of course, it's also more homogeneous. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/inequality-america-norway/512735/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/inequal...
cc81 8y ago
Is that true for the high security prisons as well? Because it is not true for Sweden even if the ideals are rehabilitation.
- vidarh 8y ago
  To some extent.. E.g even Anders Brevik has been given access to study and relatively high standards compared to elsewhere, though he's complained of isolation - only about a dozen prisoners total has been imprisoned under as strict terms as he has. It's by no means perfect, but rehabilitation is a focus everywhere.
moltar 8y ago
It was well portrayed in the Where to Invade Next documentary, if anyone is interested.
- mieseratte 8y ago
  As someone who can't stomach Michael Moore's hyperbolic "documentaries," I'd recommend Breaking the Cycle[0] as a much better documentary on the topic. The warden of Halden, Norway's most kind prison, visits a US facility so you get a good compare contrast of US vs. Norwegian facility. [0] - https://www.netflix.com/title/80217333 https://www.netflix.com/title/80217333
  - moltar 8y ago
    That doc was actually tolerable. I feel like Moore had actually matured in his delivery. I was pleasantly surprised.

assblaster 8y ago

How do Norway prisons deal with formation of gangs, which are essentially small businesses that seek to "disrupt" the prison economy?

jasonmaydie 8y ago
Norway has a relatively low level of crime, it's probably a factor in their successful prison system
- EliRivers 8y ago
  And their successful prison system is a factor in the relatively low level of crime.
  - assblaster 8y ago
    But why aren't gangs forming in Norway? Lack of poverty? Lack of substantial immigration? In other words, why isn't MS13 infiltrating Norway, if there's no competition for their illegal activities? In the United States, for instance, there's a huge market for gang formation, and gangs thrive despite constant fighting for territory.
    - EliRivers 8y ago
      I'm sure it justifies a much more nuanced consideration, but at a crude economic level, I suspect gangs provide protection and economic opportunity in exchange for physical and legal risks; Norway provides both of those opportunities, to a high degree and to a broad section of society (social mobility in Norway is high), with much lower physical and legal risks attached, so there is competition for what gangs provide.
      - jeffreyrogers 8y ago
        Also a very homogeneous population. Crime is higher among recent immigrants/refugees and their children[0]. It's hard to tease out how much is due to the prison/legal/welfare system and how much is due to the composition of society. Plus, it's a tough thing to debate openly because of accusations of racism, xenophobia, etc. In any case, it's certainly true that the US prison system is not very effective at reforming criminals and I'm sure the conditions are often appalling. [0]: https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikler-og-publikasjoner/_attachment/332143?_ts=16035d6f0d8 https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikl... (mostly in Norwegian, but some parts in English)
        krageon 8y ago
        Saying "foreigners are more often criminals", while not necessarily xenophobic in nature (as in, you don't have to have strictly xenophobic thoughts to come to such a conclusion), doesn't lead to a nice and balanced conversation. That is leaving aside the correlation/causation dilemma which you're just sidestepping here (it's correlative, not causative - unless you have some sort of proof for that, which I doubt).
vidarh 8y ago
I've never heard it mentioned as an issue. But consider that prison sentences in Norway are typically short, coupled with substantial rebates for good behaviour - as well as rewards such as chances at even more lenient conditions, and a system where prisoners start getting leave etc. That adds up to a lot of downsides to breaking the rules.
grasshopperpurp 8y ago
>How Norwegians and Americans See Inequality Differently >“In Norway, people very much disapprove of inequalities that are due to bad luck,” Bertil Tungodden, a professor at the Norwegian School of Economics, and one of the paper’s authors, told me. “People in the U.S. are more willing to accept inequality, even if it reflects pure good luck for some and pure bad luck for others.” Less of a problem because inequality is lower, and fewer people feel the need to join gangs for protection/to get by. Of course, it's also more homogeneous. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/inequality-america-norway/512735/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/inequal...

cc81 8y ago

Is that true for the high security prisons as well? Because it is not true for Sweden even if the ideals are rehabilitation.

vidarh 8y ago
To some extent.. E.g even Anders Brevik has been given access to study and relatively high standards compared to elsewhere, though he's complained of isolation - only about a dozen prisoners total has been imprisoned under as strict terms as he has. It's by no means perfect, but rehabilitation is a focus everywhere.

moltar 8y ago

It was well portrayed in the Where to Invade Next documentary, if anyone is interested.

mieseratte 8y ago
As someone who can't stomach Michael Moore's hyperbolic "documentaries," I'd recommend Breaking the Cycle[0] as a much better documentary on the topic. The warden of Halden, Norway's most kind prison, visits a US facility so you get a good compare contrast of US vs. Norwegian facility. [0] - https://www.netflix.com/title/80217333 https://www.netflix.com/title/80217333
- moltar 8y ago
  That doc was actually tolerable. I feel like Moore had actually matured in his delivery. I was pleasantly surprised.