6 ms·

Can't help but dream that private prisons could do like this and save money on guards, cooking, property, etc.. housing aggressive prisoners have got to be expe

by jopsen 8y ago

Can't help but dream that private prisons could do like this and save money on guards, cooking, property, etc.. housing aggressive prisoners have got to be expensive, compared to housing non-aggressive ones. I guess that either (a) regulation mandates security / poor conditions, or (b) nobody is quite crazy enough to try and make money by disrupting the private prison business :)

jernfrost 8y ago
In Norway, we tend to follow a non-aggressive approach to prison and despite much higher standards than say in the US, the cost per prisoner isn't significantly higher. Prison guards in Norway are essentially university educated social workers. American prison guards from what I've read are essentially just guys with a stick. They just get a couple of weeks of training. Guards in Norway work closely with prisoners and do activities with them and get to know them. This leads to lower levels of aggression. I've seen accounts of other European visiting Norwegian prisons remarking how much more calm the atmosphere is. When you lock up people and treat them as animals you create anger, resentment and aggression which they take out on each other or the guards if given the opportunity. I believe this is a principle which applies to all walks of life including how you raise children. Children who live under strict regimes which are heavily focused on punishment don't act well. They easily become violent and lack self control. If there is always an overwhelming force present to punish every transgression you make, all you learn is to be behave when you are under threat. When that control is gone you have no ability to control yourself.
- assblaster 8y ago
  How do Norway prisons deal with formation of gangs, which are essentially small businesses that seek to "disrupt" the prison economy?
  - jasonmaydie 8y ago
    Norway has a relatively low level of crime, it's probably a factor in their successful prison system
    - EliRivers 8y ago
      And their successful prison system is a factor in the relatively low level of crime.
      - assblaster 8y ago
        But why aren't gangs forming in Norway? Lack of poverty? Lack of substantial immigration? In other words, why isn't MS13 infiltrating Norway, if there's no competition for their illegal activities? In the United States, for instance, there's a huge market for gang formation, and gangs thrive despite constant fighting for territory.
        EliRivers 8y ago
        I'm sure it justifies a much more nuanced consideration, but at a crude economic level, I suspect gangs provide protection and economic opportunity in exchange for physical and legal risks; Norway provides both of those opportunities, to a high degree and to a broad section of society (social mobility in Norway is high), with much lower physical and legal risks attached, so there is competition for what gangs provide.
        jeffreyrogers 8y ago
        Also a very homogeneous population. Crime is higher among recent immigrants/refugees and their children[0]. It's hard to tease out how much is due to the prison/legal/welfare system and how much is due to the composition of society. Plus, it's a tough thing to debate openly because of accusations of racism, xenophobia, etc. In any case, it's certainly true that the US prison system is not very effective at reforming criminals and I'm sure the conditions are often appalling. [0]: https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikler-og-publikasjoner/_attachment/332143?_ts=16035d6f0d8 https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikl... (mostly in Norwegian, but some parts in English)
        krageon 8y ago
  - vidarh 8y ago
    I've never heard it mentioned as an issue. But consider that prison sentences in Norway are typically short, coupled with substantial rebates for good behaviour - as well as rewards such as chances at even more lenient conditions, and a system where prisoners start getting leave etc. That adds up to a lot of downsides to breaking the rules.
  - grasshopperpurp 8y ago
    >How Norwegians and Americans See Inequality Differently >“In Norway, people very much disapprove of inequalities that are due to bad luck,” Bertil Tungodden, a professor at the Norwegian School of Economics, and one of the paper’s authors, told me. “People in the U.S. are more willing to accept inequality, even if it reflects pure good luck for some and pure bad luck for others.” Less of a problem because inequality is lower, and fewer people feel the need to join gangs for protection/to get by. Of course, it's also more homogeneous. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/inequality-america-norway/512735/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/inequal...
- cc81 8y ago
  Is that true for the high security prisons as well? Because it is not true for Sweden even if the ideals are rehabilitation.
  - vidarh 8y ago
    To some extent.. E.g even Anders Brevik has been given access to study and relatively high standards compared to elsewhere, though he's complained of isolation - only about a dozen prisoners total has been imprisoned under as strict terms as he has. It's by no means perfect, but rehabilitation is a focus everywhere.
- moltar 8y ago
  It was well portrayed in the Where to Invade Next documentary, if anyone is interested.
  - mieseratte 8y ago
    As someone who can't stomach Michael Moore's hyperbolic "documentaries," I'd recommend Breaking the Cycle[0] as a much better documentary on the topic. The warden of Halden, Norway's most kind prison, visits a US facility so you get a good compare contrast of US vs. Norwegian facility. [0] - https://www.netflix.com/title/80217333 https://www.netflix.com/title/80217333
    - moltar 8y ago
      That doc was actually tolerable. I feel like Moore had actually matured in his delivery. I was pleasantly surprised.
Nasrudith 8y ago
The places that can already do that often do via house arrest. The best private industry can provide there are rented tracking bracelets.
cptskippy 8y ago
> Can't help but dream that private prisons could do like this Why would it matter? Are you operating under the assumption that they would then pass those savings along to the government? That's not really how privatization works. Private prisons don't care about saving the government money, they care about maximizing profit. They say they can save the government money by offering to perform an existing service at a lower cost, but not dramatically lower. They negotiate minimum prison populations, thus ensuring a baseline income. They then proceed to do the absolute minimum possible to fulfill the contract while cutting costs in every way imaginable. There's no long term consideration given to sustainability of their practices or benefit to the prison population. Everything they do is to maximize the margins until the contract runs out and they can renegotiate for higher rates.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Why would it matter? Are you operating under the assumption that they would then pass those savings along to the government? That's not really how privatization works. Well, it would be if you imagine a perfectly competitive market for prisoner placement. That's not even approximately the current private prison situation, though.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    > Well, it would be if you imagine a perfectly competitive market for prisoner placement. That's a nearly impossible situation, the start up costs alone would be enough to dissuade most from entering the market. Most private prisons don't operate in their own facilities but instead manage or lease existing facilitates from the government.
dvdhnt 8y ago
There are plenty of private prisons in the US and most of them are terrible. You’re right that the barrier to entry and long term prospects of running private prisons isn’t lucrative enough for more competitors to enter into. Regulation is an issue because the country is divided on how to view imprionsment and criminals in general. I think you really need a federal inspector general and federal regulation combined with delegation to the states to run their own prison system. That may even extend to the local level in order to prevent prejudice and rights violations. So yeah, I think private prisons combined with strict, public oversight would benefit everyone.

by jopsen 8y ago

jernfrost 8y ago

In Norway, we tend to follow a non-aggressive approach to prison and despite much higher standards than say in the US, the cost per prisoner isn't significantly higher. Prison guards in Norway are essentially university educated social workers. American prison guards from what I've read are essentially just guys with a stick. They just get a couple of weeks of training. Guards in Norway work closely with prisoners and do activities with them and get to know them. This leads to lower levels of aggression. I've seen accounts of other European visiting Norwegian prisons remarking how much more calm the atmosphere is. When you lock up people and treat them as animals you create anger, resentment and aggression which they take out on each other or the guards if given the opportunity. I believe this is a principle which applies to all walks of life including how you raise children. Children who live under strict regimes which are heavily focused on punishment don't act well. They easily become violent and lack self control. If there is always an overwhelming force present to punish every transgression you make, all you learn is to be behave when you are under threat. When that control is gone you have no ability to control yourself.

assblaster 8y ago
How do Norway prisons deal with formation of gangs, which are essentially small businesses that seek to "disrupt" the prison economy?
- jasonmaydie 8y ago
  Norway has a relatively low level of crime, it's probably a factor in their successful prison system
  - EliRivers 8y ago
    And their successful prison system is a factor in the relatively low level of crime.
    - assblaster 8y ago
      But why aren't gangs forming in Norway? Lack of poverty? Lack of substantial immigration? In other words, why isn't MS13 infiltrating Norway, if there's no competition for their illegal activities? In the United States, for instance, there's a huge market for gang formation, and gangs thrive despite constant fighting for territory.
      - EliRivers 8y ago
        I'm sure it justifies a much more nuanced consideration, but at a crude economic level, I suspect gangs provide protection and economic opportunity in exchange for physical and legal risks; Norway provides both of those opportunities, to a high degree and to a broad section of society (social mobility in Norway is high), with much lower physical and legal risks attached, so there is competition for what gangs provide.
        jeffreyrogers 8y ago
        Also a very homogeneous population. Crime is higher among recent immigrants/refugees and their children[0]. It's hard to tease out how much is due to the prison/legal/welfare system and how much is due to the composition of society. Plus, it's a tough thing to debate openly because of accusations of racism, xenophobia, etc. In any case, it's certainly true that the US prison system is not very effective at reforming criminals and I'm sure the conditions are often appalling. [0]: https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikler-og-publikasjoner/_attachment/332143?_ts=16035d6f0d8 https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikl... (mostly in Norwegian, but some parts in English)
        krageon 8y ago
- vidarh 8y ago
  I've never heard it mentioned as an issue. But consider that prison sentences in Norway are typically short, coupled with substantial rebates for good behaviour - as well as rewards such as chances at even more lenient conditions, and a system where prisoners start getting leave etc. That adds up to a lot of downsides to breaking the rules.
- grasshopperpurp 8y ago
  >How Norwegians and Americans See Inequality Differently >“In Norway, people very much disapprove of inequalities that are due to bad luck,” Bertil Tungodden, a professor at the Norwegian School of Economics, and one of the paper’s authors, told me. “People in the U.S. are more willing to accept inequality, even if it reflects pure good luck for some and pure bad luck for others.” Less of a problem because inequality is lower, and fewer people feel the need to join gangs for protection/to get by. Of course, it's also more homogeneous. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/inequality-america-norway/512735/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/inequal...
cc81 8y ago
Is that true for the high security prisons as well? Because it is not true for Sweden even if the ideals are rehabilitation.
- vidarh 8y ago
  To some extent.. E.g even Anders Brevik has been given access to study and relatively high standards compared to elsewhere, though he's complained of isolation - only about a dozen prisoners total has been imprisoned under as strict terms as he has. It's by no means perfect, but rehabilitation is a focus everywhere.
moltar 8y ago
It was well portrayed in the Where to Invade Next documentary, if anyone is interested.
- mieseratte 8y ago
  As someone who can't stomach Michael Moore's hyperbolic "documentaries," I'd recommend Breaking the Cycle[0] as a much better documentary on the topic. The warden of Halden, Norway's most kind prison, visits a US facility so you get a good compare contrast of US vs. Norwegian facility. [0] - https://www.netflix.com/title/80217333 https://www.netflix.com/title/80217333
  - moltar 8y ago
    That doc was actually tolerable. I feel like Moore had actually matured in his delivery. I was pleasantly surprised.

Nasrudith 8y ago

The places that can already do that often do via house arrest. The best private industry can provide there are rented tracking bracelets.

cptskippy 8y ago

> Can't help but dream that private prisons could do like this Why would it matter? Are you operating under the assumption that they would then pass those savings along to the government? That's not really how privatization works. Private prisons don't care about saving the government money, they care about maximizing profit. They say they can save the government money by offering to perform an existing service at a lower cost, but not dramatically lower. They negotiate minimum prison populations, thus ensuring a baseline income. They then proceed to do the absolute minimum possible to fulfill the contract while cutting costs in every way imaginable. There's no long term consideration given to sustainability of their practices or benefit to the prison population. Everything they do is to maximize the margins until the contract runs out and they can renegotiate for higher rates.

dragonwriter 8y ago
> Why would it matter? Are you operating under the assumption that they would then pass those savings along to the government? That's not really how privatization works. Well, it would be if you imagine a perfectly competitive market for prisoner placement. That's not even approximately the current private prison situation, though.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  > Well, it would be if you imagine a perfectly competitive market for prisoner placement. That's a nearly impossible situation, the start up costs alone would be enough to dissuade most from entering the market. Most private prisons don't operate in their own facilities but instead manage or lease existing facilitates from the government.

dvdhnt 8y ago

There are plenty of private prisons in the US and most of them are terrible. You’re right that the barrier to entry and long term prospects of running private prisons isn’t lucrative enough for more competitors to enter into. Regulation is an issue because the country is divided on how to view imprionsment and criminals in general. I think you really need a federal inspector general and federal regulation combined with delegation to the states to run their own prison system. That may even extend to the local level in order to prevent prejudice and rights violations. So yeah, I think private prisons combined with strict, public oversight would benefit everyone.