3 ms·

They don't know more about a subject. They may have more practice at it. I can do fairly delicate work with a soldering iron, and I can puzzle out simple circu

They don't know more about a subject. They may have more practice at it. I can do fairly delicate work with a soldering iron, and I can puzzle out simple circuits, and I can work out various values for a circuit if I have pen and paper and a book to refresh my memory. I've also been an output smoothness tech for http://www.specsensors.com/ http://www.specsensors.com/ . There is no way I know more about the field than any electrical engineer, not even close. I've worked with those guys. Their college backgrounds actually taught them stuff. I'm less certain about the programming example. There are plenty of stories among hobbyists and professionals of the CS kids that can't code up a linked-list. Then again, there are also lots of non-degreed hacks that can't do that, either. Considering that part of MIT's CS program is to write an operating system (and I know a guy who did that in a weekend, and slapped in a GUI for extra credit), I question whether it's true that the best programmers don't have degrees.

jasonjei 16y ago
I think you are giving a college education too much credit. There are definitely exceptions to the rule, but one of my best engineers has been at it since the 70s, and has no degree in electrical engineering but in math, and what of the hackers that have been programming such as RMS before it became a real, hardened discipline (before a CS degree was offered)? The best and most dedicated need no degree to validate their talents. MIT is a fine school, but I would be even more impressed if they could take an average student and turn him into a programming whiz. The best learners are often self taught, which is why the PhD program works to an extent (free labor for the school, self education for the PhD student). How are you so certain a degree less programmer couldn't program an OS, or code a linked list library from scratch? Arrington's a lawyer--how was it that he got into an agreement without documenting it on paper (maybe that JD is just a piece of paper)? A lot of college graduates seem to think they are entitled to jobs, when they haven't proven they can program. I've met a BA Chinese grad who can't speak Chinese to save his life (I spent my middle school years in Taiwan, I have no degree in Chinese), or the English grad who can't write. Having a degree means you studied the subject, it doesn't mean you are an expert at it. Especially not with an undergrad degree. They spend 2-3 years on remedial high school, and spend maybe a year and a half on their discipline. Like anything in life, there are no absolutes. I can say though that the ones most driven go beyond a piece of paper. Having one helps. But having one doesn't mean you're better, you just paid your dues in cash and time. It might just give you the edge you need, but the last thing I look at it in a programmer is for a degree. I seem to recall reading that one of the main Linux kernel committers has a degree in music. That hardly gives him the credentials to be playing with an OS internals by your reasoning. It's like the culinary school example. You'll be on a much better footing with a degree, but it doesn't mean you're better. A lot of culinary school graduates end up cooking banquets at country clubs. Some chefs, like Pizzeria Bianco's Chris Bianco (where NYT proclaimed the best pizza is not in NYC but in AZ) have no paper to prove but hard knocks.
- jimbokun 16y ago
  "...and what of the hackers that have been programming such as RMS before it became a real, hardened discipline" I'm pretty sure RMS did much of his best hacking at MIT.
  - jasonjei 16y ago
    Was there a Computer Science degree when he was at school? His degree was in Physics. How do you get a degree in CS when no degree in CS is offered? To imply you need a CS degree implies that there has to be a degree for you to be considered an expert in it. What if you invented the computer? Are you not qualified because you didn't get a degree in your invention?

jasonjei 16y ago

I think you are giving a college education too much credit. There are definitely exceptions to the rule, but one of my best engineers has been at it since the 70s, and has no degree in electrical engineering but in math, and what of the hackers that have been programming such as RMS before it became a real, hardened discipline (before a CS degree was offered)? The best and most dedicated need no degree to validate their talents. MIT is a fine school, but I would be even more impressed if they could take an average student and turn him into a programming whiz. The best learners are often self taught, which is why the PhD program works to an extent (free labor for the school, self education for the PhD student). How are you so certain a degree less programmer couldn't program an OS, or code a linked list library from scratch? Arrington's a lawyer--how was it that he got into an agreement without documenting it on paper (maybe that JD is just a piece of paper)? A lot of college graduates seem to think they are entitled to jobs, when they haven't proven they can program. I've met a BA Chinese grad who can't speak Chinese to save his life (I spent my middle school years in Taiwan, I have no degree in Chinese), or the English grad who can't write. Having a degree means you studied the subject, it doesn't mean you are an expert at it. Especially not with an undergrad degree. They spend 2-3 years on remedial high school, and spend maybe a year and a half on their discipline. Like anything in life, there are no absolutes. I can say though that the ones most driven go beyond a piece of paper. Having one helps. But having one doesn't mean you're better, you just paid your dues in cash and time. It might just give you the edge you need, but the last thing I look at it in a programmer is for a degree. I seem to recall reading that one of the main Linux kernel committers has a degree in music. That hardly gives him the credentials to be playing with an OS internals by your reasoning. It's like the culinary school example. You'll be on a much better footing with a degree, but it doesn't mean you're better. A lot of culinary school graduates end up cooking banquets at country clubs. Some chefs, like Pizzeria Bianco's Chris Bianco (where NYT proclaimed the best pizza is not in NYC but in AZ) have no paper to prove but hard knocks.

jimbokun 16y ago
"...and what of the hackers that have been programming such as RMS before it became a real, hardened discipline" I'm pretty sure RMS did much of his best hacking at MIT.
- jasonjei 16y ago
  Was there a Computer Science degree when he was at school? His degree was in Physics. How do you get a degree in CS when no degree in CS is offered? To imply you need a CS degree implies that there has to be a degree for you to be considered an expert in it. What if you invented the computer? Are you not qualified because you didn't get a degree in your invention?