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I am surprised, in a good way, of the message that an educator is striking about America's education system. Educators usually have been blind to their own prob

I am surprised, in a good way, of the message that an educator is striking about America's education system. Educators usually have been blind to their own problems. Never is the discussion about whether or not every student needs a college education. It seems that society expects college to be the ultimate endgame, but I have found that people from non-college backgrounds know more about a subject than their degree counterparts. I hired an electrical engineer straight out of school that barely knew how to solder, while a technician paid almost a third less than him could put together an entire PCB prototype. Similarly, I have found the best programmers do not have degrees, but their degree wielding counterparts less than interested at finding new solutions, always going by the book to solve a problem.

bad_user 16y ago
Unfortunately the law requires college degrees, as it's the best ranking mechanism they have ... e.g. what a working Visa in the US? You need a college degree. Want to work for the government? You need a college degree.
thaumaturgy 16y ago
They don't know more about a subject. They may have more practice at it. I can do fairly delicate work with a soldering iron, and I can puzzle out simple circuits, and I can work out various values for a circuit if I have pen and paper and a book to refresh my memory. I've also been an output smoothness tech for http://www.specsensors.com/ http://www.specsensors.com/ . There is no way I know more about the field than any electrical engineer, not even close. I've worked with those guys. Their college backgrounds actually taught them stuff. I'm less certain about the programming example. There are plenty of stories among hobbyists and professionals of the CS kids that can't code up a linked-list. Then again, there are also lots of non-degreed hacks that can't do that, either. Considering that part of MIT's CS program is to write an operating system (and I know a guy who did that in a weekend, and slapped in a GUI for extra credit), I question whether it's true that the best programmers don't have degrees.
- jasonjei 16y ago
  I think you are giving a college education too much credit. There are definitely exceptions to the rule, but one of my best engineers has been at it since the 70s, and has no degree in electrical engineering but in math, and what of the hackers that have been programming such as RMS before it became a real, hardened discipline (before a CS degree was offered)? The best and most dedicated need no degree to validate their talents. MIT is a fine school, but I would be even more impressed if they could take an average student and turn him into a programming whiz. The best learners are often self taught, which is why the PhD program works to an extent (free labor for the school, self education for the PhD student). How are you so certain a degree less programmer couldn't program an OS, or code a linked list library from scratch? Arrington's a lawyer--how was it that he got into an agreement without documenting it on paper (maybe that JD is just a piece of paper)? A lot of college graduates seem to think they are entitled to jobs, when they haven't proven they can program. I've met a BA Chinese grad who can't speak Chinese to save his life (I spent my middle school years in Taiwan, I have no degree in Chinese), or the English grad who can't write. Having a degree means you studied the subject, it doesn't mean you are an expert at it. Especially not with an undergrad degree. They spend 2-3 years on remedial high school, and spend maybe a year and a half on their discipline. Like anything in life, there are no absolutes. I can say though that the ones most driven go beyond a piece of paper. Having one helps. But having one doesn't mean you're better, you just paid your dues in cash and time. It might just give you the edge you need, but the last thing I look at it in a programmer is for a degree. I seem to recall reading that one of the main Linux kernel committers has a degree in music. That hardly gives him the credentials to be playing with an OS internals by your reasoning. It's like the culinary school example. You'll be on a much better footing with a degree, but it doesn't mean you're better. A lot of culinary school graduates end up cooking banquets at country clubs. Some chefs, like Pizzeria Bianco's Chris Bianco (where NYT proclaimed the best pizza is not in NYC but in AZ) have no paper to prove but hard knocks.
  - jimbokun 16y ago
    "...and what of the hackers that have been programming such as RMS before it became a real, hardened discipline" I'm pretty sure RMS did much of his best hacking at MIT.
arethuza 16y ago
Complaining that an electrical engineer isn't very good at soldering is a bit like complaining that a CS graduate can't touch type.

bad_user 16y ago

Unfortunately the law requires college degrees, as it's the best ranking mechanism they have ... e.g. what a working Visa in the US? You need a college degree. Want to work for the government? You need a college degree.

thaumaturgy 16y ago

They don't know more about a subject. They may have more practice at it. I can do fairly delicate work with a soldering iron, and I can puzzle out simple circuits, and I can work out various values for a circuit if I have pen and paper and a book to refresh my memory. I've also been an output smoothness tech for http://www.specsensors.com/ http://www.specsensors.com/ . There is no way I know more about the field than any electrical engineer, not even close. I've worked with those guys. Their college backgrounds actually taught them stuff. I'm less certain about the programming example. There are plenty of stories among hobbyists and professionals of the CS kids that can't code up a linked-list. Then again, there are also lots of non-degreed hacks that can't do that, either. Considering that part of MIT's CS program is to write an operating system (and I know a guy who did that in a weekend, and slapped in a GUI for extra credit), I question whether it's true that the best programmers don't have degrees.

jasonjei 16y ago
I think you are giving a college education too much credit. There are definitely exceptions to the rule, but one of my best engineers has been at it since the 70s, and has no degree in electrical engineering but in math, and what of the hackers that have been programming such as RMS before it became a real, hardened discipline (before a CS degree was offered)? The best and most dedicated need no degree to validate their talents. MIT is a fine school, but I would be even more impressed if they could take an average student and turn him into a programming whiz. The best learners are often self taught, which is why the PhD program works to an extent (free labor for the school, self education for the PhD student). How are you so certain a degree less programmer couldn't program an OS, or code a linked list library from scratch? Arrington's a lawyer--how was it that he got into an agreement without documenting it on paper (maybe that JD is just a piece of paper)? A lot of college graduates seem to think they are entitled to jobs, when they haven't proven they can program. I've met a BA Chinese grad who can't speak Chinese to save his life (I spent my middle school years in Taiwan, I have no degree in Chinese), or the English grad who can't write. Having a degree means you studied the subject, it doesn't mean you are an expert at it. Especially not with an undergrad degree. They spend 2-3 years on remedial high school, and spend maybe a year and a half on their discipline. Like anything in life, there are no absolutes. I can say though that the ones most driven go beyond a piece of paper. Having one helps. But having one doesn't mean you're better, you just paid your dues in cash and time. It might just give you the edge you need, but the last thing I look at it in a programmer is for a degree. I seem to recall reading that one of the main Linux kernel committers has a degree in music. That hardly gives him the credentials to be playing with an OS internals by your reasoning. It's like the culinary school example. You'll be on a much better footing with a degree, but it doesn't mean you're better. A lot of culinary school graduates end up cooking banquets at country clubs. Some chefs, like Pizzeria Bianco's Chris Bianco (where NYT proclaimed the best pizza is not in NYC but in AZ) have no paper to prove but hard knocks.
- jimbokun 16y ago
  "...and what of the hackers that have been programming such as RMS before it became a real, hardened discipline" I'm pretty sure RMS did much of his best hacking at MIT.

arethuza 16y ago

Complaining that an electrical engineer isn't very good at soldering is a bit like complaining that a CS graduate can't touch type.