8 ms·

You really shouldn't blame the victim just because you've been reading more news stories than him. It's the sort of thing I might have done when I was younger.

You really shouldn't blame the victim just because you've been reading more news stories than him. It's the sort of thing I might have done when I was younger. I grew up trusting authorities and them always being reasonable and I would never have imagined Germany was such a bizarrely brutal place. People often joke with the workers they have to interact with. I've done that before. It's human nature. I used to have a nazi symbol on my car just to rile people up. Once a neighbor called the police who were completely reasonable and asked me to please not park so close to his house because it's making him angry.

eropple 8y ago
> I used to have a nazi symbol on my car just to rile people up. No healthy person does this "just to rile people up." This is profoundly fucked behavior, and in a sane society it does, and should, lead to ostracizing. Actions have consequences.
- Pica_soO 8y ago
  If you have a whole class of people who have every hour of the day to nanny and harass other people - to rile them up- with any means possible, seems like a good cause. Bonus Points if you put a Hammer and Sickle right next to them. Creepy Thought-controll-freaks of all nations united- in outrage. My man.
  - DocTomoe 8y ago
    Hammer and Sickle gets you into serious trouble in much of East Europe, particularly in Poland and the Czech Republic.
    - picsao 8y ago
      Anarchy A gets you in trouble with all those little Neighbornittlers everywhere. I wish there was a name for this egomaniac psychosis that once you synced your opinion with the in-group you have a right to form the Spanish inquisition.
    - smcl 8y ago
      I’ve seen people (fellow foreigners) wearing hammer and sickle on tshirts in czech and it didn’t seem to cause any trouble. I’m sure people quietly thought “what an idiot” but nobody actually did anything. Weirdly a friend of a friend who was a member of the local football ultras threatened to kick the shit out of a someone who was wearing that iconic Che-Guevara-face t-shirt ... but nothing happened (and that’s probably one of the more violent people).
      - DocTomoe 8y ago
        In all fairness, you need to be a particular brand of idiot to show communist glorification on your clothing in the country that was subject to the violent break of the liberalization that we now know as Prague Spring. Anyone who has read anything about Czechia knows about that. I would expect czech police there to be more "nah, above my paygrade" when it comes to foreigners than German customs officers.
        smcl 8y ago
        Oh I don't disagree - when wearing this sorta stuff you're at best ignorant and at worst trying to be provocative (god knows why you'd want to). The cases I saw were mostly the dumb Threadless "Communist Party" t-shirt which is definitely in the latter camp. And you're right, the police would likely just roll their eyes and move on. I think anything nazi-related is taken much more seriously in Germany than anything socialist/communist related is here (there's even still an actual communist party which iirc gets regular single-digit share of electoral votes).
- lopmotr 8y ago
  Yes they do. The students of the university I was at were always doing offensive things trying to provoke reactions. Like a column about "Underage celebrities I'd go to jail for" or drawing a giant penis on the carpark. It's normal student culture where I'm from.
- blackbagboys 8y ago
  At absolute best, it's tasteless, and certainly grounds for social exclusion, but criminalizing and especially pathologizing mildly anti-social behavior is profoundly immoral, reckless, and inhumane.
  - eropple 8y ago
    Nazism and its asides are not merely mildly antisocial behavior. Nazism is a pathology, it is the declaration of the intent to commit violence, and repping Nazi symbols makes you a goddamn Nazi. I believe that communities and societies have the right and the duty to defend themselves against clearly communicated threats of violence. Germany and countries with similar antifascist and anti-Nazi legal strictures have the right of it.
    - blackbagboys 8y ago
      Nah, this is wrong. Putting a Nazi symbol on your car with the intent to piss people off is a juvenile provocation and in no way requires that the perpetrator actually harbor a secret desire to bring about the extermination of the untermenschen. Completely relinquishing the ability to judge things on their actual context in favor of the unthinking punitive application of absolutist principles is the beating heart of every anti-human ideology.
      - eropple 8y ago
        You're certainly entitled to that opinion. But your assertion is not convincing. This rather is my bag; studying neofascists and their propaganda tactics is a rather in-depth hobby of mine. And the way they rely upon the plausible deniability of "actual context" is why I am happy to disregard it. Literally any other nonfascist ideology, yes, I agree. Not Nazis, not fascists. They're autoimmune disorders and societies and communities erring on caution with and specifically with fascists won't keep me up at night. Putting Nazi shit on things you own is a sign of tribal identity and that tribe exists to break our norms and kill us once they have the chance. On one's own head be it. This may catch up some dipshits who want to offend people. But...y'know? That's OK. Don't be that dipshit. Don't play with Nazi shit.
kuerbel 8y ago
Are you serious? I am from Switzerland and live in Germany for 10 years, even in Switzerland I would not dare to say this to an officer. At worst they will take it as a personal offence, like I'd imply they are like the Gestapo and at best they'll suspect that I am on drugs or mentally handicapped.
DocTomoe 8y ago
> You really shouldn't blame the victim Point is, he's not a victim, he's a criminal and has received his well-deserved punishment. > you've been reading more news stories than him. When you go to another country, it is your responsibility to follow their laws. Ignorantia legis non excusat. >I grew up trusting authorities and them always being reasonable and I would never have imagined Germany was such a bizarrely brutal place. "Brutal". In all fairness, compared to US prisons, German prisons must feel like holiday resorts... As a German citizen, I trust my authorities to uphold the laws. > I used to have a nazi symbol on my car just to rile people up. No. You had Nazi symbolism on your car because you are likely someone who agrees with the ideology. This also reflects in the kind of people you hang around with. > Once a neighbor called the police who were completely reasonable and asked me to please not park so close to his house because it's making him angry. And in Germany, you would have gotten jail time (§ 86a StGB), have your car confiscated and likely destroyed, and probably would have lost your driving license because you have demonstrated that you lack the adequate character to safely operate a vehicle. And I would have been ok with that.
- lopmotr 8y ago
  You obviously know that it's a crime in Germany. The parent's friend obviously didn't. Are you actually in support of rule of law no matter what, or is it just this law you like? For example, are you OK with China executing Falun Gong members? Are you OK with ISIS killing gay people (it's the law of Islam!)? Are you OK with slavery as long as it's legal? Or are you just angry about Nazis especially out of all the other horrible groups in history for some reason? What about the Romans? They were pretty brutal - do you want to destroy the property of people who write roman numerals and write Latin phrases on things? Your extreme reaction doesn't make sense to me. > lack the adequate character to safely operate a vehicle It has nothing to do with safety. I grew up playing Wolfenstein 3D and watching the History channel. Nazi symbols were completely normal and everywhere. It was in no sense a crime or an indication that you're so mentally ill that you're going to crash your car. > No. You had Nazi symbolism on your car because you are likely someone who agrees with the ideology. This also reflects in the kind of people you hang around with. Please don't make personal judgments. I explained my reason.

eropple 8y ago

> I used to have a nazi symbol on my car just to rile people up. No healthy person does this "just to rile people up." This is profoundly fucked behavior, and in a sane society it does, and should, lead to ostracizing. Actions have consequences.

Pica_soO 8y ago
If you have a whole class of people who have every hour of the day to nanny and harass other people - to rile them up- with any means possible, seems like a good cause. Bonus Points if you put a Hammer and Sickle right next to them. Creepy Thought-controll-freaks of all nations united- in outrage. My man.
- DocTomoe 8y ago
  Hammer and Sickle gets you into serious trouble in much of East Europe, particularly in Poland and the Czech Republic.
  - picsao 8y ago
    Anarchy A gets you in trouble with all those little Neighbornittlers everywhere. I wish there was a name for this egomaniac psychosis that once you synced your opinion with the in-group you have a right to form the Spanish inquisition.
  - smcl 8y ago
    I’ve seen people (fellow foreigners) wearing hammer and sickle on tshirts in czech and it didn’t seem to cause any trouble. I’m sure people quietly thought “what an idiot” but nobody actually did anything. Weirdly a friend of a friend who was a member of the local football ultras threatened to kick the shit out of a someone who was wearing that iconic Che-Guevara-face t-shirt ... but nothing happened (and that’s probably one of the more violent people).
    - DocTomoe 8y ago
      In all fairness, you need to be a particular brand of idiot to show communist glorification on your clothing in the country that was subject to the violent break of the liberalization that we now know as Prague Spring. Anyone who has read anything about Czechia knows about that. I would expect czech police there to be more "nah, above my paygrade" when it comes to foreigners than German customs officers.
      - smcl 8y ago
        Oh I don't disagree - when wearing this sorta stuff you're at best ignorant and at worst trying to be provocative (god knows why you'd want to). The cases I saw were mostly the dumb Threadless "Communist Party" t-shirt which is definitely in the latter camp. And you're right, the police would likely just roll their eyes and move on. I think anything nazi-related is taken much more seriously in Germany than anything socialist/communist related is here (there's even still an actual communist party which iirc gets regular single-digit share of electoral votes).
lopmotr 8y ago
Yes they do. The students of the university I was at were always doing offensive things trying to provoke reactions. Like a column about "Underage celebrities I'd go to jail for" or drawing a giant penis on the carpark. It's normal student culture where I'm from.
blackbagboys 8y ago
At absolute best, it's tasteless, and certainly grounds for social exclusion, but criminalizing and especially pathologizing mildly anti-social behavior is profoundly immoral, reckless, and inhumane.
- eropple 8y ago
  Nazism and its asides are not merely mildly antisocial behavior. Nazism is a pathology, it is the declaration of the intent to commit violence, and repping Nazi symbols makes you a goddamn Nazi. I believe that communities and societies have the right and the duty to defend themselves against clearly communicated threats of violence. Germany and countries with similar antifascist and anti-Nazi legal strictures have the right of it.
  - blackbagboys 8y ago
    Nah, this is wrong. Putting a Nazi symbol on your car with the intent to piss people off is a juvenile provocation and in no way requires that the perpetrator actually harbor a secret desire to bring about the extermination of the untermenschen. Completely relinquishing the ability to judge things on their actual context in favor of the unthinking punitive application of absolutist principles is the beating heart of every anti-human ideology.
    - eropple 8y ago
      You're certainly entitled to that opinion. But your assertion is not convincing. This rather is my bag; studying neofascists and their propaganda tactics is a rather in-depth hobby of mine. And the way they rely upon the plausible deniability of "actual context" is why I am happy to disregard it. Literally any other nonfascist ideology, yes, I agree. Not Nazis, not fascists. They're autoimmune disorders and societies and communities erring on caution with and specifically with fascists won't keep me up at night. Putting Nazi shit on things you own is a sign of tribal identity and that tribe exists to break our norms and kill us once they have the chance. On one's own head be it. This may catch up some dipshits who want to offend people. But...y'know? That's OK. Don't be that dipshit. Don't play with Nazi shit.

kuerbel 8y ago

Are you serious? I am from Switzerland and live in Germany for 10 years, even in Switzerland I would not dare to say this to an officer. At worst they will take it as a personal offence, like I'd imply they are like the Gestapo and at best they'll suspect that I am on drugs or mentally handicapped.

DocTomoe 8y ago

> You really shouldn't blame the victim Point is, he's not a victim, he's a criminal and has received his well-deserved punishment. > you've been reading more news stories than him. When you go to another country, it is your responsibility to follow their laws. Ignorantia legis non excusat. >I grew up trusting authorities and them always being reasonable and I would never have imagined Germany was such a bizarrely brutal place. "Brutal". In all fairness, compared to US prisons, German prisons must feel like holiday resorts... As a German citizen, I trust my authorities to uphold the laws. > I used to have a nazi symbol on my car just to rile people up. No. You had Nazi symbolism on your car because you are likely someone who agrees with the ideology. This also reflects in the kind of people you hang around with. > Once a neighbor called the police who were completely reasonable and asked me to please not park so close to his house because it's making him angry. And in Germany, you would have gotten jail time (§ 86a StGB), have your car confiscated and likely destroyed, and probably would have lost your driving license because you have demonstrated that you lack the adequate character to safely operate a vehicle. And I would have been ok with that.

lopmotr 8y ago
You obviously know that it's a crime in Germany. The parent's friend obviously didn't. Are you actually in support of rule of law no matter what, or is it just this law you like? For example, are you OK with China executing Falun Gong members? Are you OK with ISIS killing gay people (it's the law of Islam!)? Are you OK with slavery as long as it's legal? Or are you just angry about Nazis especially out of all the other horrible groups in history for some reason? What about the Romans? They were pretty brutal - do you want to destroy the property of people who write roman numerals and write Latin phrases on things? Your extreme reaction doesn't make sense to me. > lack the adequate character to safely operate a vehicle It has nothing to do with safety. I grew up playing Wolfenstein 3D and watching the History channel. Nazi symbols were completely normal and everywhere. It was in no sense a crime or an indication that you're so mentally ill that you're going to crash your car. > No. You had Nazi symbolism on your car because you are likely someone who agrees with the ideology. This also reflects in the kind of people you hang around with. Please don't make personal judgments. I explained my reason.