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Group of scientists suggest that octopuses might actually be aliens

84 points by prostoalex 8y ago

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
Which was it - virus-guided evolution or cryofrozen eggs? That piece is all over the map. And it begs the question: why is alien life DNA-based at all? Without addressing that, its just a comedy piece.
- sulam 8y ago
  Without trying to support the piece, the DNA question has a rich history of being explainable via the panspermia theory.
  - JoeAltmaier 8y ago
    Ok, then the point of the piece, that the Octopus is special in being 'alien', becomes moot? Everything is 'alien'.
    - Nomentatus 8y ago
      But in this case, the leap in complexity is so obvious we can tell it's alien (they say.)
      - jonny_eh 8y ago
        That argument sounds awfully similar to that of Intelligent Design. I imagine that Punctuated Equilibrium is a far simpler explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium
        Nomentatus 8y ago
        If you find a watch on a beach... was the old argument. The argument in the paper is that the Octopi change is so fast and so immense it leaves every known instance of PE, including human evolution, far behind along with every other known leap forward. I'm not endorsing that view, just retailing it.
        JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        I'm wondering if the fossil record supports the conclusion that octopuses actually got all the claimed features at once? How does a fossil (of a soft creature, notoriously rare to fossilize at all) indicate the presence of color change, large eye and so on. Or is it a DNA argument. Then I'm back to why DNA at all unless everything is alien. In which case, why the article. Its like "there's this one alien guy in Idaho..." instead of "There's other intelligent life in the universe!!!"
        Nomentatus 8y ago
        Good point, re soft bodies fossilizing more rarely - because what may have happened is the squids just didn't show up in the fossil record for a very long time, nor the proto-squids. Ocean acidification at various periods (say due to CO2 variations at different periods, which were large) would be a factor. I'm not saying the 33 scientists weren't well aware of these considerations, though.
      - foo101 8y ago
        I think JoeAltmaier (your parent commenter) still has a point. If the leap in complexity of octopuses is so obvious that we can tell it's an alien, do you mean other earlier life in our planet was not alien? That would not make sense because it would be hard to imagine that two independent evolutions of life led to the same protein-based, DNA-based life. So the only reasonable theory is that both the earlier life in our planet as well as octopuses are aliens which is JoeAltmaier's point.
        Nomentatus 8y ago
        The 33 scientists do not mean that. I think, in fact, to make their argument go forward, you pretty much have to assume that squid arrived earlier from a different branch of the same alien lineage, but were quickly - so quickly - followed by vasty more complex octopi, that we know that octopi didn't evolve here. The authors aren't anti-panspermists. JoeAltmaier's wasn't the one introducing the idea of panspermia. His point was, instead: "why even write this paper focusing on octopi if all life is alien" and my answer was, 'cause this is the one time you can really prove that (according to the authors.)
        JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        But it also then supports the much larger issue of Panspermia. That should have been the title/main point then? Yes this is quite a strange article.
- Insanity 8y ago
  In the paper they mention both (paper was linked in the article): > In our considered view the totality of the multifactorial data and critical analyses assembled by Fred Hoyle, Chandra Wickramasinghe and their many colleagues leads to the bare minimum yet plausible scientific conclusion – that life was seeded here on Earth by life-bearing comets as soon as conditions on Earth allowed it to flourish (at or just before 4.1 Billion years ago); and living organisms such as space-resistant and space-hardy bacteria, viruses, more complex eukaryotic cells and organisms (e.g. Tardigrades), perhaps even fertilised ova and plant seeds, may have been continuously delivered ever since to Earth helping to drive further the progress of terrestrial biological evolution. EDIT: Further in the paper they talk specifically about the octopus in more detail: > Thus the possibility that cryopreserved Squid and/or Octopus eggs, arrived in icy bolides several hundred million years ago should not be discounted (below) as that would be a parsimonious cosmic explanation for the Octopus' sudden emergence on Earth ca. 270 million years ago. Full disclosure: I'm a software engineer not a biologist, so the next bit is my interpretation that could be wrong: As I get it from the paper they seem to suggest that octopi came into being either due to genes inserted into a terrestrial ancestor whereby the genes came from space. OR by the landing of extraterrestrial eggs on our planet.
yigu 8y ago
A few questions that pop into my head: Why did land insects never rise to match the intelligence of the octopus? If octopuses are so smart, why aren't they more social? Why is it that the most social of animals, ants (which are considered eusocial actually), are not pressed with becoming smarter? Why does sex cause octopuses to self-destruct? Also, when it comes to weird theories, I have always thought that if we are in a simulation, it is most likely a simulation created by an insect intelligence. Or if we are being visited by aliens, that those aliens would in all likelihood be of an insect like nature, not some lame anal-probing grey dudes. I claim this as vague support for my theory of alien insects[0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13620387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13620387
- bobwaycott 8y ago
  > If octopuses are so smart, why aren't they more social? Because they are so smart.
  - felipemnoa 8y ago
    https://www.sciencealert.com/marine-biologists-discover-an-underwater-octopus-city-they-re-calling-octlantis https://www.sciencealert.com/marine-biologists-discover-an-u...
  - alexanderchr 8y ago
    ”For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”
- noetic_techy 8y ago
  you're asking human questions of a possibly alien intelligence. The assumption that alien life would behave and have the same motivation as earth life is a fallacy. This paradigm may not even apply.
- 8y ago
tomhallett 8y ago
Complete sidebar: octopuses/squid are on my short list of "things in American diet I don't eat because they are too smart" (pigs being the other).
- palisade 8y ago
  Due to the acidification of the ocean, there's an overpopulation of squid in the seas. It would actually be beneficial if people started eating more of them, because they're predators of other fish species that we ourselves are already overfishing. Note: I'm not an environmentalist, it is just something I noticed.
  - newsbinator 8y ago
    In fact, I have a modest proposal to share with you on that front. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal
    - labster 8y ago
      "You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before." -- President Donald J. Trump
      - hueving 8y ago
        https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/us/politics/fact-check-trump-animals-immigration-ms13-sanctuary-cities.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/us/politics/fact-check-tr...
  - Regardsyjc 8y ago
    I'm Korean so dried squid is my favorite snack but it costs $50 for 10 of them in NYC. Would not recommend this snack though, I hear it's pretty harsh on your teeth.
  - deleted 8y ago
Abishek_Muthian 8y ago
For constructive criticism on the content of this article, there's a quartz piece - https://qz.com/1281064/a-controversial-study-has-a-new-spin-on-the-otherworldliness-of-the-octopus/ https://qz.com/1281064/a-controversial-study-has-a-new-spin-...
- Nomentatus 8y ago
  Not even criticism - it doesn't mention what the scientists take to be their evidence, much less discuss any of that. It then misunderstands the mention of "future" - the point actually being made was that the alien octopi were so much more complex because they'd had far longer to evolve, not that someone owned a time-machine. I don't have a position on the question, but this article was mostly a waste of time.
jdpigeon 8y ago
I wouldn't trust anything from that website. That scientific journal sounds sketchy, too
- JdeBP 8y ago
  It is at least, according to Elsevier, peer reviewed. * https://www.elsevier.com/journals/progress-in-biophysics-and-molecular-biology/0079-6107/guide-for-authors#20910 https://www.elsevier.com/journals/progress-in-biophysics-and...
  - nicodjimenez 8y ago
    Elsevier getting desperate lol
    - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
      The well-known Elsevier linguistics journal Lingua had an editor revolt (reconstituted as Glossa, not published by Elsevier), but Elsevier continues to publish a 'zombie' Lingua.
  - jonny_eh 8y ago
    Every pseudo-scientific journal claims to be peer reviewed.
    - JdeBP 8y ago
      However, so too do the properly scientific ones, so that does not demonstrate anything at all. The thing to look at is the editors, who they are and whether they indeed edit the journal as claimed. * https://www.bioc.cam.ac.uk/research/uto/blundell https://www.bioc.cam.ac.uk/research/uto/blundell * https://www.dpag.ox.ac.uk/team/denis-noble https://www.dpag.ox.ac.uk/team/denis-noble * http://www.herzzentrum.de/englisch/departments-sections/institute-for-experimental-cardiovascular-medicine/team/peter-kohl-prof-dr.html http://www.herzzentrum.de/englisch/departments-sections/inst...
2_listerine_pls 8y ago
The Simpsons weren't too far off
faizshah 8y ago
"[The authors] present a fantastic overview of the various hypotheses about the evolution of life on our planet and the contribution of extraterrestrial elements. The review includes many references, several different opinions and ranges all the way to the up-todate literature...The authors take, however, one more step. Their view differs from common scientific concepts and available evidence, claiming that the origin of viruses, microbes and even animals all the way to tardigradus - originate from space." "There are several explanations why the Cambrian explosion occurred...but the notion that viruses from extraterrestrial space are the main drivers - is uniquely presented here in this article. The authors believe this and use strong expressions, describing it as evidence-based, yet without any of the necessary evidence. As an excuse they point out to other previous unconventional ideas during history of science which turned out to be true later - this is the argument the authors use. They even find their idea “plausible” - but it is hard to follow their thinking in this respect. So this article is useful, calling for attention, and it is worth thinking about - yet the main statement about viruses, microbes and even animals which came to us from space, cannot be taken seriously." Commentary to: Cause of Cambrian explosion - Terrestrial or cosmic? Steele, E.J. et al. Karin Molling, Max Planck Institute Molecular Genetics, Berlin, Germany https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610718300804?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071...
- Nomentatus 8y ago
  They don't cite "any evidence?" C'mon man, they cite quite a bit of evidence. No-one can read the article and truthfully say this. Size of DNA, sophistication of adaptation, differential body symettry, off the top of my head. Is that weak evidence? Well then by the same token, it's evidence. This seems to be one of the many, many times when contemporary scientists say "there is no evidence of X" when what they mean is that there is no incontrovertible evidence (the other name for which, of course, is "proof.") But proof and evidence are manifestly not the same thing and conflating them to confuse one's opponents does nobody any favors. Evidence that is not defeasible remains evidence. Luckily so - because post-Popper, we know that all scientific evidence is defeasible and proof never actually arrives.
agar 8y ago
As much as I love the concept, I can only imagine what a professional with expertise in cephalopods and their DNA would think while reading this article. If you've ever read a popular press story in your area of expertise, you immediately see how many things writers oversimplify to the point of absurdity, or just get plain wrong. I'm guessing the authors of that journal article, were they to read this news story, would simultaneously hyperventilate and strain their necks from the excessive sighing and head shaking.
- Nomentatus 8y ago
  This article gives direct quotes from the authors, and the quotes are exciting, (33 authors FWIW) https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/958247/alien-octopuses-cephalopods-earth-outer-space-aliens-cryopreserved-eggs-cambrian-explosion https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/958247/alien-octopuse...
  - ianai 8y ago
    Not entirely sure I can take that site seriously. Their ads seem pretty strongly in the fake news territory.
    - AlexCoventry 8y ago
      The original paper is here. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610718300798 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071... Not sure I can take this paper seriously, either, but it's clear they're taking themselves seriously (in a good way.)
  - mirimir 8y ago
    OK, but "gene complexes", not necessarily octopuses, per se.
    - Nomentatus 8y ago
      Not necessarily, true. But these aren't bacteria and this is a whole lotta genes - so life here absorbing so much DNA coherently doesn't sound more plausible than eggs hatching to me. (Meteorites are freezing cold if you touch them right after they land, despite ablating most of their mass on the way down. Or rather, iron ones are - carbonaceous, I have no idea.)
TimTheTinker 8y ago
Just my own perspective: as one who believes God is responsible for the origin, complexity, and diversity of life, this article makes me chuckle. The theory of evolution as an explanation of the origin of the major taxa of life really paints us into a corner from which it is difficult to wiggle out. In my opinion, the panspermia/alien origin hypothesis (and its persistence as an explanation in some respected circles) illustrates how strictly limiting ourselves to natural explanations leaves not just a "gap" in our ability to explain origins, but a massive gaping hole. (Also, the insistence on a distinction between "alien" and "divine" has no rational basis.)
- maxerickson 8y ago
  A few billion years is like, a pretty long time.
  - oh_sigh 8y ago
    For you.
    - legostormtroopr 8y ago
      You’re a big guy
- 0xBA5ED 8y ago
  "The theory of evolution as an explanation of the origin of the major taxa of life really paints us into a corner from which it is difficult to wiggle out." Sure, it's easy to avoid corners when you can place them arbitrarily, or even move them when they're inconvenient.
  - TimTheTinker 8y ago
    > place them arbitrarily, or even move them when they're inconvenient. I know others have been accused of that; I endeavor to maintain integrity.
foo101 8y ago
Here is what I would like to understand: If there is any truth to the theory that Octopuses indeed evolved in outer space and were delivered to our planet via a cosmic payload, how is it that they happened to have the same kind of protein-based, DNA-based genetics like we have? Isn't it too much of a stretch to imagine that an alien evolved under similar conditions with similar genetic foundation like life evolved in our planet?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- heartbreak 8y ago
  Earth’s abiogenesis could have started via a cosmic payload as well, which potentially answers your question regarding the shared biochemistry. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia
- ianai 8y ago
  It does say our genes are very different from theirs. Also maybe the eggs were somehow flexible on that.
- xbmcuser 8y ago
  Maybe they are the only alien species to survive because their dna and biolgy found earths enviroment habitable due to the similarities. Others that landed simply couldn't surive.
- stmfreak 8y ago
  Our DNA may be as inevitable and common in the universe as the elements from which they are made. Quarks snap together in common forms we call protons, neutrons and electrons. They in turn combine to form a set of regular elements with consistent characteristics. Is it really such a stretch to imagine that the elements form amino acids quite readily all over the universe?
- gmuslera 8y ago
  Think in computers. It may be possible that there are alien computers that use the binary numbering system? Think on it as the DNA (oversimplifying, of course). Now, there is any possibility that they use python as their programming language or the intel processors instruction set? That chains of DNA are interpreted in the exact same way, specially the very basic ones (i.e. how to turn sugar into energy) is what makes very improbable, or at least easy to verify, that something from here have in fact alien origin. Maybe we had 2 waves of incoming DNA from another specific planet, one that bring here the basic building blocks and another the octopus branch (that had the same way to read DNA as it have the same origin), but if that evolution could happen somewhere else, why it couldn't had happened here? The idea that their evolution could had been triggered by an alien virus still have the same origin requirement. You still have DNA that must be interpreted in the exact same way as ours to work. Occam's Razor would be useful here, just push the moment of the split from our branch closer to the point when we went from unicellular to multicellular
natecavanaugh 8y ago
This strangely reminds me of a Wired article[0] from 2013 where it quotes a scientist in this way: "If you want to study an alien intelligence, Godfrey-Smith says, 'octopuses are the closest thing we have.'" Though it doesn't make the claim that it's of alien origin, nor do I subscribe to the theory necessarily. There's just too much question-begging in the theories that life is somehow of extraterrestrial origin (where did that life come from?). I think of just how genetically plastic dogs are within their own species, that it's not hard for me to imagine life developing into all sorts of directions without having to resort to the seed hypothesis. Then again, me trying to speak with any kind of authority on evolution or DNA is akin to a dog discussing quantum physics, so my opinion only goes so far ;) [0] https://www.wired.com/2013/10/how-the-freaky-octopus-can-help-us-understand-the-human-brain/ https://www.wired.com/2013/10/how-the-freaky-octopus-can-hel...
- AlexCoventry 8y ago
  > question-begging in the theories that life is somehow of extraterrestrial origin (where did that life come from?). I really dislike this paper, but they do address that. The fact that life had to start somewhere doesn't make the question of extraterrestrial origin any less interesting.
  - natecavanaugh 8y ago
    Sorry for the late reply, but I agree the idea is interesting, but for me it comes off the same way intelligent design or creationism comes off, almost as a God of the gaps type mentality. Because if life is seeded from elsewhere, it's essentially placing it's origin into infinity, and kind of hand waving away the need to dig further. Not that I'm saying we should philosophically determine where we want the evidence to go, but usually the idea is based on so much conjecture and leads to the same result practically that it just seems like a secular way of dismissing the search based on the evidence we do have. Granted, we have no idea what discoveries and scientific advancements are going to come in the near to distant future, but while I think the question is worth considering, it seems pretty weird for some scientists to accept this conjecture, but randomly eliminate others. To each his own I guess, but this probably is more about my own distaste for the line of thinking (that, and the whole "we're in a simulation" hypothesis), where it kicks the question off into a place where we'll probably never be able to answer it. Though as far as fun discussion and speculating as entertainment, that is where I find the ideas most enjoyable, personally :)
exabrial 8y ago
Before you jump to mock this, remember we should encourage well thought out discussion that acknowledges it's shortcomings.
- vixen99 8y ago
  its shortcomings
Tomminn 8y ago
I'm not saying this idea is wrong, but it comes with a large grain of salt. Like everything else in the world, 90% of science is crap. If there is no proposed falsifiability criterion, there is no science here.
- Nomentatus 8y ago
  I share your discouragement with the present state of "science" (see the Replication Crisis) but the trouble with your comment that it applies to everything ever written, not this article in particular, not to mention that Theodore Sturgeon said it first, as a still more general rule.
  - Tomminn 8y ago
    I assumed the HN crowd was familiar with the fact that "90% of everything is crap" is someone else's idea. This was probably not a good assumption to make.
    - DoreenMichele 8y ago
      Even if they are, framing matters. Your framing sounded like "this is my (ugly) opinion" not like "Everyone knows this common saying."
    - Nomentatus 8y ago
      So familiar, so why state it without any special relevance, much less without attribution? Why waste our time then if everybody knows it?
    - chrisallenlane 8y ago
      I don't know why people are giving you a hard time here. The quote is widely-known, and I appreciated your remark about the troubling lack of falsifiability criterion.
      - Nomentatus 8y ago
        See elsewhere here, there's no shortage of experiments to be done that could be determinative in this case. Also, Karl Popper's rule is a great rule of thumb, it really is; but there's an immense bibliography in philosophy of science about whether it's a shoe that fits all circumstances.
throw7 8y ago
I too am awaiting the return of the old ones.
- strictnein 8y ago
  I would like to avoid meeting any shoggoths. Tekeli-li Tekeli-li
TelAvivHacker 8y ago
This makes no sense. How would an alien life form be encoded in a compatible DNA "language"?
tmearnest 8y ago
I find this notion to be completely ridiculous. There's some things that are common to all life. The genetic code for instance. There are of course different dialects [1], but they're all fairly similar, and all code for the same set of amino acids. Cephalopods use the same means of storing genetic information, DNA with the bases G, C, A, and T. They have the same machinery to translate the genetic code into proteins, ribosomes. Ribosomal structure is highly conserved among all life. The idea that all of these molecular machinery developed in parallel on a different planet with the exact same genetic code, means of storing genetic information, and means of converting genetic information in protein is beyond absurd. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Utils/wprintgc.cgi https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Utils/wprintgc.cgi
- Nomentatus 8y ago
  Which is why it wasn't asserted. See Panspermia.
rukittenme 8y ago
> Its large brain and sophisticated nervous system, camera-like eyes, flexible bodies, instantaneous camouflage via the ability to switch color and shape are just a few of the striking features that appear suddenly on the evolutionary scene Argument from incredulity. > The genome of the Octopus shows a staggering level of complexity with 33,000 protein-coding genes more than is present in Homo sapiens. Red herring. > this “great leap forward” in complexity was due to “cryopreserved squid and/or octopus eggs” crashing into the ocean on comets millions of years ago No evidence provided to support this claim. In addition, Cephalopoda is a very well documented clade. Meaning we have fossilized evidence the octopuses originated and developed on this planet. > crashing into the ocean on comets millions of years ago. Probabilistic fallacy. Interstellar objects in our solar system are rare (only one ever documented). Comets seeded with eggs have never been documented and should be considered exceedingly rare. The number of comets that ever make contact with Earth is very, very low.
whataretensors 8y ago
The eventual babelfish trained using unsupervised alignment may make things like bird->human or octopus->human possible(or mycellial mass, if it turns out to be intelligent). I have a suspicion that in the future human-centric mono-species intelligence and consciousness assumptions will be tested, and the outcome may be similar to discovering other galaxies in terms of the impact on humanity's collective psyche.
- lioeters 8y ago
  At first I was confused by "babelfish trained using unsupervised alignment", but realized after re-reading your comment several times, that it's about translation/communication (with other species!) based on machine-learning. Dolphins and maybe whales.. I like the thought of humanity discovering other forms of consciousness, whole dimensions we never expected or imagined.
anotheryou 8y ago
"The Hawaiʻian creation myth relates that the present cosmos is only the last of a series, having arisen in stages from the wreck of the previous universe. In this account, the octopus is the lone survivor of the previous, alien universe." ( https://archive.org/details/oceanicmytholog02dixogoog https://archive.org/details/oceanicmytholog02dixogoog )
philbarr 8y ago
Octopuses? Octopi, surely?
- detaro 8y ago
  Both are fine. (Octopi is arguably wrong, since octopus comes from Greek, not Latin (where you'd find that style of pluralization), but is used so commonly that it has become part of the language)
  - philbarr 8y ago
    It's interesting, though. When I was a child "octopi" was the classic pluralization exception. There's even the joke, "if the plural of octopus is octopi, what's the plural of whatatwitamus?" I have never seen "octopuses" until today.
Nomentatus 8y ago
Orbital decay means planets were more distant from the sun in the past. As well, solar luminosity was lower. It's also likely that water and has accumulated on, say, Venus. So although not a likely harbor for life now, perhaps Venus was the first batter up for the evolution of life. Against this, there are definitely other heat sources, especially for large planets, and more water (from impacts carrying water, especially) is available at a greater distance from the sun.

84 points by prostoalex 8y ago

Which was it - virus-guided evolution or cryofrozen eggs? That piece is all over the map. And it begs the question: why is alien life DNA-based at all? Without addressing that, its just a comedy piece.

sulam 8y ago
Without trying to support the piece, the DNA question has a rich history of being explainable via the panspermia theory.
- JoeAltmaier 8y ago
  Ok, then the point of the piece, that the Octopus is special in being 'alien', becomes moot? Everything is 'alien'.
  - Nomentatus 8y ago
    But in this case, the leap in complexity is so obvious we can tell it's alien (they say.)
    - jonny_eh 8y ago
      That argument sounds awfully similar to that of Intelligent Design. I imagine that Punctuated Equilibrium is a far simpler explanation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punctuated_equilibrium
      - Nomentatus 8y ago
        If you find a watch on a beach... was the old argument. The argument in the paper is that the Octopi change is so fast and so immense it leaves every known instance of PE, including human evolution, far behind along with every other known leap forward. I'm not endorsing that view, just retailing it.
        JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        I'm wondering if the fossil record supports the conclusion that octopuses actually got all the claimed features at once? How does a fossil (of a soft creature, notoriously rare to fossilize at all) indicate the presence of color change, large eye and so on. Or is it a DNA argument. Then I'm back to why DNA at all unless everything is alien. In which case, why the article. Its like "there's this one alien guy in Idaho..." instead of "There's other intelligent life in the universe!!!"
        Nomentatus 8y ago
        Good point, re soft bodies fossilizing more rarely - because what may have happened is the squids just didn't show up in the fossil record for a very long time, nor the proto-squids. Ocean acidification at various periods (say due to CO2 variations at different periods, which were large) would be a factor. I'm not saying the 33 scientists weren't well aware of these considerations, though.
    - foo101 8y ago
      I think JoeAltmaier (your parent commenter) still has a point. If the leap in complexity of octopuses is so obvious that we can tell it's an alien, do you mean other earlier life in our planet was not alien? That would not make sense because it would be hard to imagine that two independent evolutions of life led to the same protein-based, DNA-based life. So the only reasonable theory is that both the earlier life in our planet as well as octopuses are aliens which is JoeAltmaier's point.
      - Nomentatus 8y ago
        The 33 scientists do not mean that. I think, in fact, to make their argument go forward, you pretty much have to assume that squid arrived earlier from a different branch of the same alien lineage, but were quickly - so quickly - followed by vasty more complex octopi, that we know that octopi didn't evolve here. The authors aren't anti-panspermists. JoeAltmaier's wasn't the one introducing the idea of panspermia. His point was, instead: "why even write this paper focusing on octopi if all life is alien" and my answer was, 'cause this is the one time you can really prove that (according to the authors.)
        JoeAltmaier 8y ago
        But it also then supports the much larger issue of Panspermia. That should have been the title/main point then? Yes this is quite a strange article.
Insanity 8y ago
In the paper they mention both (paper was linked in the article): > In our considered view the totality of the multifactorial data and critical analyses assembled by Fred Hoyle, Chandra Wickramasinghe and their many colleagues leads to the bare minimum yet plausible scientific conclusion – that life was seeded here on Earth by life-bearing comets as soon as conditions on Earth allowed it to flourish (at or just before 4.1 Billion years ago); and living organisms such as space-resistant and space-hardy bacteria, viruses, more complex eukaryotic cells and organisms (e.g. Tardigrades), perhaps even fertilised ova and plant seeds, may have been continuously delivered ever since to Earth helping to drive further the progress of terrestrial biological evolution. EDIT: Further in the paper they talk specifically about the octopus in more detail: > Thus the possibility that cryopreserved Squid and/or Octopus eggs, arrived in icy bolides several hundred million years ago should not be discounted (below) as that would be a parsimonious cosmic explanation for the Octopus' sudden emergence on Earth ca. 270 million years ago. Full disclosure: I'm a software engineer not a biologist, so the next bit is my interpretation that could be wrong: As I get it from the paper they seem to suggest that octopi came into being either due to genes inserted into a terrestrial ancestor whereby the genes came from space. OR by the landing of extraterrestrial eggs on our planet.

yigu 8y ago

A few questions that pop into my head: Why did land insects never rise to match the intelligence of the octopus? If octopuses are so smart, why aren't they more social? Why is it that the most social of animals, ants (which are considered eusocial actually), are not pressed with becoming smarter? Why does sex cause octopuses to self-destruct? Also, when it comes to weird theories, I have always thought that if we are in a simulation, it is most likely a simulation created by an insect intelligence. Or if we are being visited by aliens, that those aliens would in all likelihood be of an insect like nature, not some lame anal-probing grey dudes. I claim this as vague support for my theory of alien insects[0]. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13620387 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13620387

bobwaycott 8y ago
> If octopuses are so smart, why aren't they more social? Because they are so smart.
- felipemnoa 8y ago
  https://www.sciencealert.com/marine-biologists-discover-an-underwater-octopus-city-they-re-calling-octlantis https://www.sciencealert.com/marine-biologists-discover-an-u...
- alexanderchr 8y ago
  ”For instance, on the planet Earth, man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time. But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.”
noetic_techy 8y ago
you're asking human questions of a possibly alien intelligence. The assumption that alien life would behave and have the same motivation as earth life is a fallacy. This paradigm may not even apply.
8y ago

tomhallett 8y ago

Complete sidebar: octopuses/squid are on my short list of "things in American diet I don't eat because they are too smart" (pigs being the other).

palisade 8y ago
Due to the acidification of the ocean, there's an overpopulation of squid in the seas. It would actually be beneficial if people started eating more of them, because they're predators of other fish species that we ourselves are already overfishing. Note: I'm not an environmentalist, it is just something I noticed.
- newsbinator 8y ago
  In fact, I have a modest proposal to share with you on that front. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Modest_Proposal
  - labster 8y ago
    "You wouldn’t believe how bad these people are. These aren’t people. These are animals. And we’re taking them out of the country at a level and at a rate that’s never happened before." -- President Donald J. Trump
    - hueving 8y ago
      https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/us/politics/fact-check-trump-animals-immigration-ms13-sanctuary-cities.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/us/politics/fact-check-tr...
- Regardsyjc 8y ago
  I'm Korean so dried squid is my favorite snack but it costs $50 for 10 of them in NYC. Would not recommend this snack though, I hear it's pretty harsh on your teeth.
- deleted 8y ago

Abishek_Muthian 8y ago

For constructive criticism on the content of this article, there's a quartz piece - https://qz.com/1281064/a-controversial-study-has-a-new-spin-on-the-otherworldliness-of-the-octopus/ https://qz.com/1281064/a-controversial-study-has-a-new-spin-...

Nomentatus 8y ago
Not even criticism - it doesn't mention what the scientists take to be their evidence, much less discuss any of that. It then misunderstands the mention of "future" - the point actually being made was that the alien octopi were so much more complex because they'd had far longer to evolve, not that someone owned a time-machine. I don't have a position on the question, but this article was mostly a waste of time.

jdpigeon 8y ago

I wouldn't trust anything from that website. That scientific journal sounds sketchy, too

JdeBP 8y ago
It is at least, according to Elsevier, peer reviewed. * https://www.elsevier.com/journals/progress-in-biophysics-and-molecular-biology/0079-6107/guide-for-authors#20910 https://www.elsevier.com/journals/progress-in-biophysics-and...
- nicodjimenez 8y ago
  Elsevier getting desperate lol
  - _emacsomancer_ 8y ago
    The well-known Elsevier linguistics journal Lingua had an editor revolt (reconstituted as Glossa, not published by Elsevier), but Elsevier continues to publish a 'zombie' Lingua.
- jonny_eh 8y ago
  Every pseudo-scientific journal claims to be peer reviewed.
  - JdeBP 8y ago
    However, so too do the properly scientific ones, so that does not demonstrate anything at all. The thing to look at is the editors, who they are and whether they indeed edit the journal as claimed. * https://www.bioc.cam.ac.uk/research/uto/blundell https://www.bioc.cam.ac.uk/research/uto/blundell * https://www.dpag.ox.ac.uk/team/denis-noble https://www.dpag.ox.ac.uk/team/denis-noble * http://www.herzzentrum.de/englisch/departments-sections/institute-for-experimental-cardiovascular-medicine/team/peter-kohl-prof-dr.html http://www.herzzentrum.de/englisch/departments-sections/inst...

2_listerine_pls 8y ago

The Simpsons weren't too far off

faizshah 8y ago

"[The authors] present a fantastic overview of the various hypotheses about the evolution of life on our planet and the contribution of extraterrestrial elements. The review includes many references, several different opinions and ranges all the way to the up-todate literature...The authors take, however, one more step. Their view differs from common scientific concepts and available evidence, claiming that the origin of viruses, microbes and even animals all the way to tardigradus - originate from space." "There are several explanations why the Cambrian explosion occurred...but the notion that viruses from extraterrestrial space are the main drivers - is uniquely presented here in this article. The authors believe this and use strong expressions, describing it as evidence-based, yet without any of the necessary evidence. As an excuse they point out to other previous unconventional ideas during history of science which turned out to be true later - this is the argument the authors use. They even find their idea “plausible” - but it is hard to follow their thinking in this respect. So this article is useful, calling for attention, and it is worth thinking about - yet the main statement about viruses, microbes and even animals which came to us from space, cannot be taken seriously." Commentary to: Cause of Cambrian explosion - Terrestrial or cosmic? Steele, E.J. et al. Karin Molling, Max Planck Institute Molecular Genetics, Berlin, Germany https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610718300804?via%3Dihub https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071...

Nomentatus 8y ago
They don't cite "any evidence?" C'mon man, they cite quite a bit of evidence. No-one can read the article and truthfully say this. Size of DNA, sophistication of adaptation, differential body symettry, off the top of my head. Is that weak evidence? Well then by the same token, it's evidence. This seems to be one of the many, many times when contemporary scientists say "there is no evidence of X" when what they mean is that there is no incontrovertible evidence (the other name for which, of course, is "proof.") But proof and evidence are manifestly not the same thing and conflating them to confuse one's opponents does nobody any favors. Evidence that is not defeasible remains evidence. Luckily so - because post-Popper, we know that all scientific evidence is defeasible and proof never actually arrives.

agar 8y ago

As much as I love the concept, I can only imagine what a professional with expertise in cephalopods and their DNA would think while reading this article. If you've ever read a popular press story in your area of expertise, you immediately see how many things writers oversimplify to the point of absurdity, or just get plain wrong. I'm guessing the authors of that journal article, were they to read this news story, would simultaneously hyperventilate and strain their necks from the excessive sighing and head shaking.

Nomentatus 8y ago
This article gives direct quotes from the authors, and the quotes are exciting, (33 authors FWIW) https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/958247/alien-octopuses-cephalopods-earth-outer-space-aliens-cryopreserved-eggs-cambrian-explosion https://www.express.co.uk/news/science/958247/alien-octopuse...
- ianai 8y ago
  Not entirely sure I can take that site seriously. Their ads seem pretty strongly in the fake news territory.
  - AlexCoventry 8y ago
    The original paper is here. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610718300798 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S007961071... Not sure I can take this paper seriously, either, but it's clear they're taking themselves seriously (in a good way.)
- mirimir 8y ago
  OK, but "gene complexes", not necessarily octopuses, per se.
  - Nomentatus 8y ago
    Not necessarily, true. But these aren't bacteria and this is a whole lotta genes - so life here absorbing so much DNA coherently doesn't sound more plausible than eggs hatching to me. (Meteorites are freezing cold if you touch them right after they land, despite ablating most of their mass on the way down. Or rather, iron ones are - carbonaceous, I have no idea.)

TimTheTinker 8y ago

Just my own perspective: as one who believes God is responsible for the origin, complexity, and diversity of life, this article makes me chuckle. The theory of evolution as an explanation of the origin of the major taxa of life really paints us into a corner from which it is difficult to wiggle out. In my opinion, the panspermia/alien origin hypothesis (and its persistence as an explanation in some respected circles) illustrates how strictly limiting ourselves to natural explanations leaves not just a "gap" in our ability to explain origins, but a massive gaping hole. (Also, the insistence on a distinction between "alien" and "divine" has no rational basis.)

maxerickson 8y ago
A few billion years is like, a pretty long time.
- oh_sigh 8y ago
  For you.
  - legostormtroopr 8y ago
    You’re a big guy
0xBA5ED 8y ago
"The theory of evolution as an explanation of the origin of the major taxa of life really paints us into a corner from which it is difficult to wiggle out." Sure, it's easy to avoid corners when you can place them arbitrarily, or even move them when they're inconvenient.
- TimTheTinker 8y ago
  > place them arbitrarily, or even move them when they're inconvenient. I know others have been accused of that; I endeavor to maintain integrity.

foo101 8y ago

Here is what I would like to understand: If there is any truth to the theory that Octopuses indeed evolved in outer space and were delivered to our planet via a cosmic payload, how is it that they happened to have the same kind of protein-based, DNA-based genetics like we have? Isn't it too much of a stretch to imagine that an alien evolved under similar conditions with similar genetic foundation like life evolved in our planet?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
heartbreak 8y ago
Earth’s abiogenesis could have started via a cosmic payload as well, which potentially answers your question regarding the shared biochemistry. [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panspermia
ianai 8y ago
It does say our genes are very different from theirs. Also maybe the eggs were somehow flexible on that.
xbmcuser 8y ago
Maybe they are the only alien species to survive because their dna and biolgy found earths enviroment habitable due to the similarities. Others that landed simply couldn't surive.
stmfreak 8y ago
Our DNA may be as inevitable and common in the universe as the elements from which they are made. Quarks snap together in common forms we call protons, neutrons and electrons. They in turn combine to form a set of regular elements with consistent characteristics. Is it really such a stretch to imagine that the elements form amino acids quite readily all over the universe?
gmuslera 8y ago
Think in computers. It may be possible that there are alien computers that use the binary numbering system? Think on it as the DNA (oversimplifying, of course). Now, there is any possibility that they use python as their programming language or the intel processors instruction set? That chains of DNA are interpreted in the exact same way, specially the very basic ones (i.e. how to turn sugar into energy) is what makes very improbable, or at least easy to verify, that something from here have in fact alien origin. Maybe we had 2 waves of incoming DNA from another specific planet, one that bring here the basic building blocks and another the octopus branch (that had the same way to read DNA as it have the same origin), but if that evolution could happen somewhere else, why it couldn't had happened here? The idea that their evolution could had been triggered by an alien virus still have the same origin requirement. You still have DNA that must be interpreted in the exact same way as ours to work. Occam's Razor would be useful here, just push the moment of the split from our branch closer to the point when we went from unicellular to multicellular

natecavanaugh 8y ago

This strangely reminds me of a Wired article[0] from 2013 where it quotes a scientist in this way: "If you want to study an alien intelligence, Godfrey-Smith says, 'octopuses are the closest thing we have.'" Though it doesn't make the claim that it's of alien origin, nor do I subscribe to the theory necessarily. There's just too much question-begging in the theories that life is somehow of extraterrestrial origin (where did that life come from?). I think of just how genetically plastic dogs are within their own species, that it's not hard for me to imagine life developing into all sorts of directions without having to resort to the seed hypothesis. Then again, me trying to speak with any kind of authority on evolution or DNA is akin to a dog discussing quantum physics, so my opinion only goes so far ;) [0] https://www.wired.com/2013/10/how-the-freaky-octopus-can-help-us-understand-the-human-brain/ https://www.wired.com/2013/10/how-the-freaky-octopus-can-hel...

AlexCoventry 8y ago
> question-begging in the theories that life is somehow of extraterrestrial origin (where did that life come from?). I really dislike this paper, but they do address that. The fact that life had to start somewhere doesn't make the question of extraterrestrial origin any less interesting.
- natecavanaugh 8y ago
  Sorry for the late reply, but I agree the idea is interesting, but for me it comes off the same way intelligent design or creationism comes off, almost as a God of the gaps type mentality. Because if life is seeded from elsewhere, it's essentially placing it's origin into infinity, and kind of hand waving away the need to dig further. Not that I'm saying we should philosophically determine where we want the evidence to go, but usually the idea is based on so much conjecture and leads to the same result practically that it just seems like a secular way of dismissing the search based on the evidence we do have. Granted, we have no idea what discoveries and scientific advancements are going to come in the near to distant future, but while I think the question is worth considering, it seems pretty weird for some scientists to accept this conjecture, but randomly eliminate others. To each his own I guess, but this probably is more about my own distaste for the line of thinking (that, and the whole "we're in a simulation" hypothesis), where it kicks the question off into a place where we'll probably never be able to answer it. Though as far as fun discussion and speculating as entertainment, that is where I find the ideas most enjoyable, personally :)

exabrial 8y ago

Before you jump to mock this, remember we should encourage well thought out discussion that acknowledges it's shortcomings.

vixen99 8y ago
its shortcomings

Tomminn 8y ago

I'm not saying this idea is wrong, but it comes with a large grain of salt. Like everything else in the world, 90% of science is crap. If there is no proposed falsifiability criterion, there is no science here.

Nomentatus 8y ago
I share your discouragement with the present state of "science" (see the Replication Crisis) but the trouble with your comment that it applies to everything ever written, not this article in particular, not to mention that Theodore Sturgeon said it first, as a still more general rule.
- Tomminn 8y ago
  I assumed the HN crowd was familiar with the fact that "90% of everything is crap" is someone else's idea. This was probably not a good assumption to make.
  - DoreenMichele 8y ago
    Even if they are, framing matters. Your framing sounded like "this is my (ugly) opinion" not like "Everyone knows this common saying."
  - Nomentatus 8y ago
    So familiar, so why state it without any special relevance, much less without attribution? Why waste our time then if everybody knows it?
  - chrisallenlane 8y ago
    I don't know why people are giving you a hard time here. The quote is widely-known, and I appreciated your remark about the troubling lack of falsifiability criterion.
    - Nomentatus 8y ago
      See elsewhere here, there's no shortage of experiments to be done that could be determinative in this case. Also, Karl Popper's rule is a great rule of thumb, it really is; but there's an immense bibliography in philosophy of science about whether it's a shoe that fits all circumstances.

throw7 8y ago

I too am awaiting the return of the old ones.

strictnein 8y ago
I would like to avoid meeting any shoggoths. Tekeli-li Tekeli-li

TelAvivHacker 8y ago

This makes no sense. How would an alien life form be encoded in a compatible DNA "language"?

tmearnest 8y ago

I find this notion to be completely ridiculous. There's some things that are common to all life. The genetic code for instance. There are of course different dialects [1], but they're all fairly similar, and all code for the same set of amino acids. Cephalopods use the same means of storing genetic information, DNA with the bases G, C, A, and T. They have the same machinery to translate the genetic code into proteins, ribosomes. Ribosomal structure is highly conserved among all life. The idea that all of these molecular machinery developed in parallel on a different planet with the exact same genetic code, means of storing genetic information, and means of converting genetic information in protein is beyond absurd. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Utils/wprintgc.cgi https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy/Utils/wprintgc.cgi

Nomentatus 8y ago
Which is why it wasn't asserted. See Panspermia.

rukittenme 8y ago

> Its large brain and sophisticated nervous system, camera-like eyes, flexible bodies, instantaneous camouflage via the ability to switch color and shape are just a few of the striking features that appear suddenly on the evolutionary scene Argument from incredulity. > The genome of the Octopus shows a staggering level of complexity with 33,000 protein-coding genes more than is present in Homo sapiens. Red herring. > this “great leap forward” in complexity was due to “cryopreserved squid and/or octopus eggs” crashing into the ocean on comets millions of years ago No evidence provided to support this claim. In addition, Cephalopoda is a very well documented clade. Meaning we have fossilized evidence the octopuses originated and developed on this planet. > crashing into the ocean on comets millions of years ago. Probabilistic fallacy. Interstellar objects in our solar system are rare (only one ever documented). Comets seeded with eggs have never been documented and should be considered exceedingly rare. The number of comets that ever make contact with Earth is very, very low.

whataretensors 8y ago

The eventual babelfish trained using unsupervised alignment may make things like bird->human or octopus->human possible(or mycellial mass, if it turns out to be intelligent). I have a suspicion that in the future human-centric mono-species intelligence and consciousness assumptions will be tested, and the outcome may be similar to discovering other galaxies in terms of the impact on humanity's collective psyche.

lioeters 8y ago
At first I was confused by "babelfish trained using unsupervised alignment", but realized after re-reading your comment several times, that it's about translation/communication (with other species!) based on machine-learning. Dolphins and maybe whales.. I like the thought of humanity discovering other forms of consciousness, whole dimensions we never expected or imagined.

anotheryou 8y ago

"The Hawaiʻian creation myth relates that the present cosmos is only the last of a series, having arisen in stages from the wreck of the previous universe. In this account, the octopus is the lone survivor of the previous, alien universe." ( https://archive.org/details/oceanicmytholog02dixogoog https://archive.org/details/oceanicmytholog02dixogoog )

philbarr 8y ago

Octopuses? Octopi, surely?

detaro 8y ago
Both are fine. (Octopi is arguably wrong, since octopus comes from Greek, not Latin (where you'd find that style of pluralization), but is used so commonly that it has become part of the language)
- philbarr 8y ago
  It's interesting, though. When I was a child "octopi" was the classic pluralization exception. There's even the joke, "if the plural of octopus is octopi, what's the plural of whatatwitamus?" I have never seen "octopuses" until today.

Nomentatus 8y ago

Orbital decay means planets were more distant from the sun in the past. As well, solar luminosity was lower. It's also likely that water and has accumulated on, say, Venus. So although not a likely harbor for life now, perhaps Venus was the first batter up for the evolution of life. Against this, there are definitely other heat sources, especially for large planets, and more water (from impacts carrying water, especially) is available at a greater distance from the sun.