5 ms·

> I hope we can move to a much more sensible immigration system, similar to Canada's, for example. We have a decent immigration system in terms of getting the

> I hope we can move to a much more sensible immigration system, similar to Canada's, for example. We have a decent immigration system in terms of getting the right kinds of advanced folks. The problem is we are also unwilling to do what needs to be done to stem the tide of unskilled illegal labor that flows into the nation.

dv_dt 8y ago
I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people that we should welcome into our society. Judging based on what current socio-economic status they're at is short sighted. You'll see the same thing expressed in HN regarding employees at declining companies, the most desirable employees leave earlier... Though I would add that doing it via a more realistic temporary work visa program would be preferable to encouraging an illegal crossing industry to flourish.
- mieseratte 8y ago
  > I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people You're not at all wrong, I grew up with a lot of illegal friends. Good number of them have since gone on to become American citizens through hard work and determination and have built good lives for themselves. Maternally, I'm a second generation American. My grandparents came to America post-WWII with nothing but an offer of employment, and ended up retired with the classic condo beach life. The classic story of rags to middle class American riches. There's a reason that's been the American tale, coming to a faraway land in search of prosperity takes drive. We filter for hard workers. The problem is the black-market / underbelly aspects of this pool, and that very desperation and drive that drove them here has them put up with conditions we should be ashamed of be it in California, Iowa, or Appalachia. Businesses exploiting that cheap source of labor drive down the ability for those trying to live a basic American life.
rubicon33 8y ago
The biggest counter argument I hear, regularly, is that the "tide" of illegal labor you speak of is NECESSARY. Who will pick strawberries? Who will clean your hotel room? Etc. It's the classic who will do "X" dirty job argument.
- robotrout 8y ago
  If we decide that we are no longer able to exploit desperate immigrants to pick our crops, than the price those crops are sold at will rise until such time as the next Eli Whitney, who is probably an HN reader, invents a machine to harvest them cheaper. All you're doing by continuing the exploitation is keeping such automation from being developed, as you rob it of it's market. It is so predictable that the whole "but what about the farmers" is touted as a reason to flaunt immigration laws. The farmers are not owed such a subsidy by the American people. They will adapt if they are forced to. They would be stupid to do so before they are forced to.
  - slg 8y ago
    >the price those crops are sold at will rise until such time as the next Eli Whitney, who is probably an HN reader, invents a machine to harvest them cheaper. Sure, and who cares about the people who can't afford food in the meantime while we wait for the new Eli Whitney? You are proposing fixing one problem by creating numerous more problems.
    - robotrout 8y ago
      I would be interested in your estimates of how much you believe produce prices would actually rise if farm workers were paid non-exploitative wages. I would also remind you that many of these poor people would be the ones receiving that higher wage.
      - slg 8y ago
        Prices would only go up marginally a few percentage points, but that can be enough to break certain budgets especially when fresh food like this is already more expensive than processed and unhealthy alternatives. You also shouldn't treat poor people as a single group. Yes, some poor people will be receiving these higher wages but no all. There are still people lost in the transition just like there would be people lost in the transition waiting for innovation from Eli Whitney.
pasquinelli 8y ago
what needs to be done? when labor isn't in high enough demand the tide will stem itself.
bryanlarsen 8y ago
The number of illegal immigrants in the US has been dropping for the past decade. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-21/the-myth-of-the-u-s-immigration-crisis https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-21/the-myth-... The biggest reason for that IMO is because Mexico has been doing relatively well over the past couple of decades. You don't attempt a very risky illegal crossing if you can get a job and support your family where you are. The repeal of NAFTA will restart the immigration wave as the Mexican economy tanks.
- nradov 8y ago
  Some parts of NAFTA might eventually be renegotiated but it won't be repealed any time soon. In the USA it was implemented as a federal law (not a treaty or executive agreement) and there is very little Congressional support for a repeal.

dv_dt 8y ago

I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people that we should welcome into our society. Judging based on what current socio-economic status they're at is short sighted. You'll see the same thing expressed in HN regarding employees at declining companies, the most desirable employees leave earlier... Though I would add that doing it via a more realistic temporary work visa program would be preferable to encouraging an illegal crossing industry to flourish.

mieseratte 8y ago
> I would posit that the people coming here illegally to work are actually the most entrepreneurial, hard working, can-do people You're not at all wrong, I grew up with a lot of illegal friends. Good number of them have since gone on to become American citizens through hard work and determination and have built good lives for themselves. Maternally, I'm a second generation American. My grandparents came to America post-WWII with nothing but an offer of employment, and ended up retired with the classic condo beach life. The classic story of rags to middle class American riches. There's a reason that's been the American tale, coming to a faraway land in search of prosperity takes drive. We filter for hard workers. The problem is the black-market / underbelly aspects of this pool, and that very desperation and drive that drove them here has them put up with conditions we should be ashamed of be it in California, Iowa, or Appalachia. Businesses exploiting that cheap source of labor drive down the ability for those trying to live a basic American life.

rubicon33 8y ago

The biggest counter argument I hear, regularly, is that the "tide" of illegal labor you speak of is NECESSARY. Who will pick strawberries? Who will clean your hotel room? Etc. It's the classic who will do "X" dirty job argument.

robotrout 8y ago
If we decide that we are no longer able to exploit desperate immigrants to pick our crops, than the price those crops are sold at will rise until such time as the next Eli Whitney, who is probably an HN reader, invents a machine to harvest them cheaper. All you're doing by continuing the exploitation is keeping such automation from being developed, as you rob it of it's market. It is so predictable that the whole "but what about the farmers" is touted as a reason to flaunt immigration laws. The farmers are not owed such a subsidy by the American people. They will adapt if they are forced to. They would be stupid to do so before they are forced to.
- slg 8y ago
  >the price those crops are sold at will rise until such time as the next Eli Whitney, who is probably an HN reader, invents a machine to harvest them cheaper. Sure, and who cares about the people who can't afford food in the meantime while we wait for the new Eli Whitney? You are proposing fixing one problem by creating numerous more problems.
  - robotrout 8y ago
    I would be interested in your estimates of how much you believe produce prices would actually rise if farm workers were paid non-exploitative wages. I would also remind you that many of these poor people would be the ones receiving that higher wage.
    - slg 8y ago
      Prices would only go up marginally a few percentage points, but that can be enough to break certain budgets especially when fresh food like this is already more expensive than processed and unhealthy alternatives. You also shouldn't treat poor people as a single group. Yes, some poor people will be receiving these higher wages but no all. There are still people lost in the transition just like there would be people lost in the transition waiting for innovation from Eli Whitney.

pasquinelli 8y ago

what needs to be done? when labor isn't in high enough demand the tide will stem itself.

bryanlarsen 8y ago

The number of illegal immigrants in the US has been dropping for the past decade. https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-21/the-myth-of-the-u-s-immigration-crisis https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-21/the-myth-... The biggest reason for that IMO is because Mexico has been doing relatively well over the past couple of decades. You don't attempt a very risky illegal crossing if you can get a job and support your family where you are. The repeal of NAFTA will restart the immigration wave as the Mexican economy tanks.

nradov 8y ago
Some parts of NAFTA might eventually be renegotiated but it won't be repealed any time soon. In the USA it was implemented as a federal law (not a treaty or executive agreement) and there is very little Congressional support for a repeal.