6 ms·

In Virtual Reality, How Much Body Do You Need?

75 points by techrede 8y ago

vinceguidry 8y ago
In deep trance states, the body progressively fades away and you perceive what would ordinarily feel like body sensations as other things, as the mind loses its frame of reference to cause and effect. All experience thus gets created by mind. I imagine with practice anything is possible regarding VR. The mind can make anything believable if you just relax and let it happen.
- hosh 8y ago
  > I imagine with practice anything is possible regarding VR. The mind can make anything believable if you just relax and let it happen. That's generally good advice for journeying of any kind, whether we're talking about VR, psychedelics, drumming, meditation, lucid dreaming, or reading a really good book.
  - TomMarius 8y ago
    It's also exceptionally good advice for nights with your partner.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
  I have been obsessed with similar thoughts. I am learning VR Development in my free time just to explore this. I want to make a VR guided meditation program, to help beginning mediators reach deeper states than they would normally be able to.
nickthegreek 8y ago
I think its more important for the body parts that are there to move correctly than to have them visible and not match. I remember trying a vive game that had arms but sometimes they would contort into impossible poses and it was extremely jarring. Having spent many hours in both vive and rift, while I prefer vive in general, the visible hands on the touch controllers on rift is just fantastic.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  I think its more important for the body parts that are there to move correctly than to have them visible and not match. A laser-hatchet hand and a disembodied floating mecha-claw that respond snappily are ultimately more real than a "realistic" arm that moves like a cartoon.
  - digi_owl 8y ago
    BTW. I recall an experiment that found that to get someone to associate a virtual hand with their real one, the researchers had to prick the real hand at the same time as the person see the virtual hand getting a prick.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      By the same token, if you want someone to associate a virtual elbow with their real elbow, you'd better not be having it do stuff your real elbow isn't doing. Better off just not having the elbow.
- martinpw 8y ago
  One interesting aspect is the difference between displaying yourself and others in VR. For yourself you do not want to show body parts that cannot be tracked correctly because of the jarring effect of the mismatch, as you say. But for showing other people you can get away with more, so for example you can show full arms even if the elbows are not exactly in the right place (as long as they are not unphysical of course.)
- Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
  I'm a little confused by your post. > I remember trying a vive game that had arms but sometimes they would contort into impossible poses and it was extremely jarring [.....] the visible hands on the touch controllers on rift is just fantastic. Neither of the things mentioned here are specific to Vive or Rift. A Rift game can give you arms that contort into impossible poses, just like a Vive game can give you visible hands. It's just software and whatever the author of whatever game you're playing decided to do. Did you play a game worked in both Vive and Rift, and the versions were different or something?
zawerf 8y ago
From a couple decades of gaming experience, you don't need much more than eyeballs, fingers and a little bit of forearm. I am convinced people who talk about immersion in VR have never been addicted to any game. It doesn't take that much to lose yourself inside of one. After the first few minutes both VR and non-VR games are the same once you're fluent with the controls.
- madeofpalk 8y ago
  > After the first few minutes both VR and non-VR games are the same Again proving the point that VR has no actual use case.
  - williamdclt 8y ago
    10 seconds of thinking: new gameplays, training, simulations, non-game immersive experiences, communication, art... I'm not an ayatollah of VR, but without any foundation to support it this is a pedantic and ignorant comment
  - tzakrajs 8y ago
    Sorry to break it to you but many games (like first person shooters) currently have no depth perception and would be greatly enhanced by it. Literally every 3D game you play today can and will be enhanced in VR because of this reason.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - eric_h 8y ago
    VR games that allow you to physically move around are immersive in a way that is unprecedented, IMO, even with very simplistic graphics.
  - meheleventyone 8y ago
    I don’t think this is true. In a gaming context VR provides more immediacy of immersion, much greater presence and wider accessibility. These factors also make VR a compelling case outside of gaming for all sorts of tasks.
Maxoveriririf 8y ago
none
Maxoveriririf 8y ago
None.
empath75 8y ago
You really only need hands so you can see what you’re interacting with and how you’re interacting with them. I think if we had some other way of controlling your avatar/viewpoint, such as some kind of direct mind interface I think you could put people into nearly any kind of body at all and they would adapt.
mncharity 8y ago
VR/AR is still in its "our users are completely untrained" skeuomorphic UI phase. There's been a tunnel-vision focus on gaming, Virtual Reality, and immersion. The design space for HMD and body tracking UIs is much larger than skeuomorphic VR. I've liked attaching eyeballs to my hand, to explore graphs without gymnastics or manipulation. Using aphysical kind-of-planar workspaces, to permit subpixel resolution on integrated graphics. Remapping motion, to permit fast ergonomic input from resting hands. Non-skeuomorphic UIs aren't getting much attention yet. And even awareness of that is not yet widespread. But there's a lot of fun incoming.
- ss248 8y ago
  Attaching eyeballs to your hands sounds really fun actually, but we are already walking a pretty thin line just trying to not make people sick. Not sure experiments like this would be comfortable for most people, so this is why i think everyone usually sticks to skeuomorphic UIs. But i agree that, VR-design wise, we are very primitive right now.
  - baby 8y ago
    I've played a number or game that replaces your hand with the object you're using. Or hell, most of the time you see the vive controllers and not hands in place of your own.
    - ss248 8y ago
      >game that replaces your hand with the object Yeah, this is the common practice. But by "attaching eyeballs to your hand" i though he meant decoupling the camera from HMD tracking and attaching it to the controller tracking. Like you move your hand and the view changes. Something similar to The Pale Man from Pan's Labyrinth [1]. Research shows[2,3], that brain adapts to the unusual perspective quite fast. So technically, after a while, the brain should accommodate and it would start feeling "natural". [1] https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/slendermanconnection/images/4/4c/Pn.jpg https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/slendermanconnection/ima... [2] http://www.yorku.ca/harris/pubs/adria_inducing_preprint.pdf http://www.yorku.ca/harris/pubs/adria_inducing_preprint.pdf [3] https://youtube.com/watch?v=4PQAc_Z2OfQ https://youtube.com/watch?v=4PQAc_Z2OfQ
tokyodude 8y ago
100% IMO First thing I did when I played a demo of Dark Secret, it shows your character in a mirror as a way to show you what your character looks like (there's the mask mirror from the Oculus Dreamdeck as well). Of course I see the character's head tilt to my head movement but most people when looking at a mirror make an expression (smile etc...) and the fact that it didn't show my actual facial expression reflect in the mirror was off putting. Second experience was Job Simulator. I picked up something, dropped it on the floor. Tried to kick it away with my feet but of course no sensors on feet so that failed. Also tried to hip close drawers and file cabinets but of course no hip sensor. If I was in a VR meetup I'd want to be able to express with my hands meaning I need all 5 fingers so I can point, give the middle finger, make the OK gesture, pick up a glass and stick my small finger out, make the shaka sign, etc.
sbhn 8y ago
You only need pseudo hands https://sean-bradley.github.io/GrabVR/ https://sean-bradley.github.io/GrabVR/ And a teleporter https://sean-bradley.github.io/TeleportVR/ https://sean-bradley.github.io/TeleportVR/
8bitsrule 8y ago
I guess that all depends on -what you look forward to doing- in that virtual reality. And how many (and what kind of stimulating) sensor options are available.

75 points by techrede 8y ago

In deep trance states, the body progressively fades away and you perceive what would ordinarily feel like body sensations as other things, as the mind loses its frame of reference to cause and effect. All experience thus gets created by mind. I imagine with practice anything is possible regarding VR. The mind can make anything believable if you just relax and let it happen.

hosh 8y ago
> I imagine with practice anything is possible regarding VR. The mind can make anything believable if you just relax and let it happen. That's generally good advice for journeying of any kind, whether we're talking about VR, psychedelics, drumming, meditation, lucid dreaming, or reading a really good book.
- TomMarius 8y ago
  It's also exceptionally good advice for nights with your partner.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
ghostbrainalpha 8y ago
I have been obsessed with similar thoughts. I am learning VR Development in my free time just to explore this. I want to make a VR guided meditation program, to help beginning mediators reach deeper states than they would normally be able to.

nickthegreek 8y ago

I think its more important for the body parts that are there to move correctly than to have them visible and not match. I remember trying a vive game that had arms but sometimes they would contort into impossible poses and it was extremely jarring. Having spent many hours in both vive and rift, while I prefer vive in general, the visible hands on the touch controllers on rift is just fantastic.

stcredzero 8y ago
I think its more important for the body parts that are there to move correctly than to have them visible and not match. A laser-hatchet hand and a disembodied floating mecha-claw that respond snappily are ultimately more real than a "realistic" arm that moves like a cartoon.
- digi_owl 8y ago
  BTW. I recall an experiment that found that to get someone to associate a virtual hand with their real one, the researchers had to prick the real hand at the same time as the person see the virtual hand getting a prick.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    By the same token, if you want someone to associate a virtual elbow with their real elbow, you'd better not be having it do stuff your real elbow isn't doing. Better off just not having the elbow.
martinpw 8y ago
One interesting aspect is the difference between displaying yourself and others in VR. For yourself you do not want to show body parts that cannot be tracked correctly because of the jarring effect of the mismatch, as you say. But for showing other people you can get away with more, so for example you can show full arms even if the elbows are not exactly in the right place (as long as they are not unphysical of course.)
Sohcahtoa82 8y ago
I'm a little confused by your post. > I remember trying a vive game that had arms but sometimes they would contort into impossible poses and it was extremely jarring [.....] the visible hands on the touch controllers on rift is just fantastic. Neither of the things mentioned here are specific to Vive or Rift. A Rift game can give you arms that contort into impossible poses, just like a Vive game can give you visible hands. It's just software and whatever the author of whatever game you're playing decided to do. Did you play a game worked in both Vive and Rift, and the versions were different or something?

zawerf 8y ago

From a couple decades of gaming experience, you don't need much more than eyeballs, fingers and a little bit of forearm. I am convinced people who talk about immersion in VR have never been addicted to any game. It doesn't take that much to lose yourself inside of one. After the first few minutes both VR and non-VR games are the same once you're fluent with the controls.

madeofpalk 8y ago
> After the first few minutes both VR and non-VR games are the same Again proving the point that VR has no actual use case.
- williamdclt 8y ago
  10 seconds of thinking: new gameplays, training, simulations, non-game immersive experiences, communication, art... I'm not an ayatollah of VR, but without any foundation to support it this is a pedantic and ignorant comment
- tzakrajs 8y ago
  Sorry to break it to you but many games (like first person shooters) currently have no depth perception and would be greatly enhanced by it. Literally every 3D game you play today can and will be enhanced in VR because of this reason.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- eric_h 8y ago
  VR games that allow you to physically move around are immersive in a way that is unprecedented, IMO, even with very simplistic graphics.
- meheleventyone 8y ago
  I don’t think this is true. In a gaming context VR provides more immediacy of immersion, much greater presence and wider accessibility. These factors also make VR a compelling case outside of gaming for all sorts of tasks.

Maxoveriririf 8y ago

none

Maxoveriririf 8y ago

None.

empath75 8y ago

You really only need hands so you can see what you’re interacting with and how you’re interacting with them. I think if we had some other way of controlling your avatar/viewpoint, such as some kind of direct mind interface I think you could put people into nearly any kind of body at all and they would adapt.

mncharity 8y ago

VR/AR is still in its "our users are completely untrained" skeuomorphic UI phase. There's been a tunnel-vision focus on gaming, Virtual Reality, and immersion. The design space for HMD and body tracking UIs is much larger than skeuomorphic VR. I've liked attaching eyeballs to my hand, to explore graphs without gymnastics or manipulation. Using aphysical kind-of-planar workspaces, to permit subpixel resolution on integrated graphics. Remapping motion, to permit fast ergonomic input from resting hands. Non-skeuomorphic UIs aren't getting much attention yet. And even awareness of that is not yet widespread. But there's a lot of fun incoming.

ss248 8y ago
Attaching eyeballs to your hands sounds really fun actually, but we are already walking a pretty thin line just trying to not make people sick. Not sure experiments like this would be comfortable for most people, so this is why i think everyone usually sticks to skeuomorphic UIs. But i agree that, VR-design wise, we are very primitive right now.
- baby 8y ago
  I've played a number or game that replaces your hand with the object you're using. Or hell, most of the time you see the vive controllers and not hands in place of your own.
  - ss248 8y ago
    >game that replaces your hand with the object Yeah, this is the common practice. But by "attaching eyeballs to your hand" i though he meant decoupling the camera from HMD tracking and attaching it to the controller tracking. Like you move your hand and the view changes. Something similar to The Pale Man from Pan's Labyrinth [1]. Research shows[2,3], that brain adapts to the unusual perspective quite fast. So technically, after a while, the brain should accommodate and it would start feeling "natural". [1] https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/slendermanconnection/images/4/4c/Pn.jpg https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/slendermanconnection/ima... [2] http://www.yorku.ca/harris/pubs/adria_inducing_preprint.pdf http://www.yorku.ca/harris/pubs/adria_inducing_preprint.pdf [3] https://youtube.com/watch?v=4PQAc_Z2OfQ https://youtube.com/watch?v=4PQAc_Z2OfQ

tokyodude 8y ago

100% IMO First thing I did when I played a demo of Dark Secret, it shows your character in a mirror as a way to show you what your character looks like (there's the mask mirror from the Oculus Dreamdeck as well). Of course I see the character's head tilt to my head movement but most people when looking at a mirror make an expression (smile etc...) and the fact that it didn't show my actual facial expression reflect in the mirror was off putting. Second experience was Job Simulator. I picked up something, dropped it on the floor. Tried to kick it away with my feet but of course no sensors on feet so that failed. Also tried to hip close drawers and file cabinets but of course no hip sensor. If I was in a VR meetup I'd want to be able to express with my hands meaning I need all 5 fingers so I can point, give the middle finger, make the OK gesture, pick up a glass and stick my small finger out, make the shaka sign, etc.

sbhn 8y ago

You only need pseudo hands https://sean-bradley.github.io/GrabVR/ https://sean-bradley.github.io/GrabVR/ And a teleporter https://sean-bradley.github.io/TeleportVR/ https://sean-bradley.github.io/TeleportVR/

8bitsrule 8y ago

I guess that all depends on -what you look forward to doing- in that virtual reality. And how many (and what kind of stimulating) sensor options are available.