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> in hopes that they can integrate with us I think you can stop right there. The dog thing happened not because dog "wanted" to be with humans. Dogs were cluel

> in hopes that they can integrate with us I think you can stop right there. The dog thing happened not because dog "wanted" to be with humans. Dogs were clueless about what happened, it just did. The explanation is on a higher level, not in their desires, not even in the desires of the humans who participated in most of the dog domestication (even if some of them may have thought about it, but by then it was already happening).

collyw 8y ago
Selective quoting, you missed out the part where he said: "are having a tough time in the wild and they are smart enough to see how we treat dogs". Its a hypothesis and it doesn't seem unreasonable.
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  How exactly do they "see how we treat dogs"? I must admit I don't see a "reasonable" hypothesis at all. > Selective quoting, Yes - because that statement does not make sense regardless of context, so I didn't quote the rest. It also saves space. I always only quote the part that I respond to, the rest of the context always still is right there in an Internet forum, unless OP deletes the post. If I quoted in a different place, for example I quote someone in my own blog post, copying from another website, then I would have to provide the context.
tzahola 8y ago
>not even in the desires of the humans who participated in most of the dog domestication [citation needed]
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  If you want to claim they caught wild wolves and started a breeding program like what was done with the famous Russian foxes then it is you need to bring a citation. The outrageous claim that needs citations is that the wolves had "hopes that they can integrate with us".
golergka 8y ago
How can you talk about these things with such a high degree of certainty? I've read different theories about dog domestication. All of them have some strong and some weak points. All of them don't have enough evidence to be taken as the only source of truth.
- ItsMe000001 8y ago
  > How can you talk about these things with such a high degree of certainty? Because "in hopes that they can integrate with us" is just silly. Of course, I admit that I take for granted that I don't have to justify a believe in evolution. If you entertain the possibility it was a deliberate human act it would have required an effort like the Fox breeding experiment in Russia. They would have had to go out and catch wild wolves and breed them for generations - that seems extremely far-fetched. Much more likely that there already were wolves that had gotten used to humans, which means they had already changed. Which is what I said: > even if some of them may have thought about it, but by then it was already happening It sure is likely that humans at some point thought it useful, but the domestication started not because anybody in particular wanted it to happen. By the way, I think horse domestication is (was) probably different. It's easy to see how wolves benefit from leftovers found near humans, but horses just need grass. Horses also still don't depend on humans nearly as much as dogs do.
salvar 8y ago
Can you source any of your statements about what precisely happened and who desired what thousands of years ago?
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Because you think the dogs had a long term plan?
  - salvar 8y ago
    > not even in the desires of the humans who participated in most of the dog domestication Did you read the full text or just immediately jump to the snarky burn attempt?
    - ItsMe000001 8y ago
      The statement that requires proof is the one that dog evolution was caused by desires of any one in particular, especially "hopes to integrate with us" of wolves.
      - salvar 8y ago
        > not even in the desires of the humans who participated in most of the dog domestication (even if some of them may have thought about it, but by then it was already happening). Again: Can you support this claim with anything? I'm actually curious, and you seem evasive.
        ItsMe000001 8y ago
        Huh? Again: Proof has to be provided by the one making the extraordinary claims. The statement that requires proof is the one that dog evolution was caused by desires of any one in particular, especially "hopes to integrate with us" of wolves. That statement was made by anonytrary, not by me.
        8y ago

collyw 8y ago

Selective quoting, you missed out the part where he said: "are having a tough time in the wild and they are smart enough to see how we treat dogs". Its a hypothesis and it doesn't seem unreasonable.

ItsMe000001 8y ago
How exactly do they "see how we treat dogs"? I must admit I don't see a "reasonable" hypothesis at all. > Selective quoting, Yes - because that statement does not make sense regardless of context, so I didn't quote the rest. It also saves space. I always only quote the part that I respond to, the rest of the context always still is right there in an Internet forum, unless OP deletes the post. If I quoted in a different place, for example I quote someone in my own blog post, copying from another website, then I would have to provide the context.

tzahola 8y ago

>not even in the desires of the humans who participated in most of the dog domestication [citation needed]

ItsMe000001 8y ago
If you want to claim they caught wild wolves and started a breeding program like what was done with the famous Russian foxes then it is you need to bring a citation. The outrageous claim that needs citations is that the wolves had "hopes that they can integrate with us".

golergka 8y ago

How can you talk about these things with such a high degree of certainty? I've read different theories about dog domestication. All of them have some strong and some weak points. All of them don't have enough evidence to be taken as the only source of truth.

ItsMe000001 8y ago
> How can you talk about these things with such a high degree of certainty? Because "in hopes that they can integrate with us" is just silly. Of course, I admit that I take for granted that I don't have to justify a believe in evolution. If you entertain the possibility it was a deliberate human act it would have required an effort like the Fox breeding experiment in Russia. They would have had to go out and catch wild wolves and breed them for generations - that seems extremely far-fetched. Much more likely that there already were wolves that had gotten used to humans, which means they had already changed. Which is what I said: > even if some of them may have thought about it, but by then it was already happening It sure is likely that humans at some point thought it useful, but the domestication started not because anybody in particular wanted it to happen. By the way, I think horse domestication is (was) probably different. It's easy to see how wolves benefit from leftovers found near humans, but horses just need grass. Horses also still don't depend on humans nearly as much as dogs do.

salvar 8y ago

Can you source any of your statements about what precisely happened and who desired what thousands of years ago?

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Because you think the dogs had a long term plan?
- salvar 8y ago
  > not even in the desires of the humans who participated in most of the dog domestication Did you read the full text or just immediately jump to the snarky burn attempt?
  - ItsMe000001 8y ago
    The statement that requires proof is the one that dog evolution was caused by desires of any one in particular, especially "hopes to integrate with us" of wolves.
    - salvar 8y ago
      > not even in the desires of the humans who participated in most of the dog domestication (even if some of them may have thought about it, but by then it was already happening). Again: Can you support this claim with anything? I'm actually curious, and you seem evasive.
      - ItsMe000001 8y ago
        Huh? Again: Proof has to be provided by the one making the extraordinary claims. The statement that requires proof is the one that dog evolution was caused by desires of any one in particular, especially "hopes to integrate with us" of wolves. That statement was made by anonytrary, not by me.
        8y ago