6 ms·

The issue with the crash safety comparison is that helmets need to withstand many impacts before being replaced since it would be crazy to replace a helmet ever

The issue with the crash safety comparison is that helmets need to withstand many impacts before being replaced since it would be crazy to replace a helmet every play or two. One possible answer is that, in order to truly solve this problem, the sport must do away with facemasks or helmets altogether. Mike Ditka has long proposed removing the facemask, claiming that it has encouraged players to weaponize their heads for hits without fear of injury [0]. Researchers in the medical community have been echoing this as well, arguing that helmets do far more damage than they prevent [1]. More and more, the league, and the sport in general, look to treat the "symptoms" of this issue rather than addressing the root cause. [0] http://bleacherreport.com/articles/495469-nfl-helmet-to-helmet-hits-mike-ditkas-solution-get-rid-of-helmets http://bleacherreport.com/articles/495469-nfl-helmet-to-helm... [1] http://natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-51.1.06?code=nata-site http://natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-51.1.06?co...

vermontdevil 8y ago
Rugby does not have a helmet (except for the padded ones) and yet they still have concussion issues. I think there’s no clear answer although I agree about removing face mask. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155428/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155428/
- ealexhudson 8y ago
  Football has never had them, there is occasional concussion but certainly long term damage from heading the ball. Increasingly, the take is that pre 12yo kids shouldn't be having any blows to the head. Having a helmet likely doesn't help that much until you get to the point of a major hit.
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  I played organized American Football from the time I was a kid. Went to at the time the biggest high school in the state. I don't recall ever having any kind of head injuries despite getting hit a lot. Went out in college to try Rugby as a club sport. First practice, horrific concussion. I am a sample size of one, but I'd much rather my son play American Football than Rugby. If he gets to the college or pro level, then we can have a John Urshel type conversation about whether to continue.
  - rhombocombus 8y ago
    I am not sure that you need a frank concussion to rack up long term damage though. Soccer players can acquire CTE from repeated headers of the ball, which rarely cause the kind of concussions you're takling about. I think the take away from all the present research is that it's generally a bad idea to bonk your head into things repeatedly, whatever the sport.
  - rhizome 8y ago
    Have you considered the possibility that the difference is that you played American Football against smaller people?
    - poulsbohemian 8y ago
      When I graduated from high school I was 155 pounds - not exactly large. Which is part of my point here. For pro calibre players, significant physical growth often happens in those college and early pro years. If you've never stood next to a professional player - even the smaller ones - they are physical freaks, at least during their playing years. The typical pre-college player in this country is a much more normal-bodied person, thus assuming good technique, etc, they are no more at risk playing American Football than any other sport.
  - beachwood23 8y ago
    One thing to consider is the way you learned to tackle. Tackling technique is very different. If you used the same "Hit em hard" tackling that is common in American Football, I'm not surprised you had a concussion your first day of rugby practice. Your tackling technique didn't emphasize head protection.
    - poulsbohemian 8y ago
      Quite the opposite - I got tackled and hit my head on the ground. An injury that might have been prevented with a helmet.
    - poulsbohemian 8y ago
- Twirrim 8y ago
  As I understand it, Rugby has a lower incident rate of concussion, and it's more the outcome of accidents than as a direct aspect of the tackling. That said, it's a very different style of play in Rugby to American Football. Rugby players just don't deliberately go in with their head for the tackle, which is something you often see with NFL players (some NFL teams have experimented with helmet free tackling practice and seen it improve the game-time tackling effectiveness) The lack of a stop of play after every tackle in Rugby also tends to ensure players are opting for tackles that they can recover from. In American Football the expectation is for contact / hit with every play. Contact is just a staple part of every single play for every player. In Rugby, contact is largely down to those with the ball, and those specifically attempting to tackle them. It's a very different contact profile, even before you consider things like helmets and padding and what that does to the mindset of the players.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    I see them lowering their heads into rucks or tackles. While there are fewer hits of course (in football, obstruction/blocking is encouraged off the ball) I think, anecdotally based on watching a lot of both, that rugby players and trainers don't account for concussion incidents as well. You see in both NFL and rugby league/union players shrugging off trainers attempting to take them out of a game, but I feel like I see many more rugby players returning to action after obvious grogginess akin to what I saw in the NFL a decade ago. There is under reporting in both sports too of course.
    - marliechiller 8y ago
      rugby has recently introduced a rule whereby there is a pitch-side doctor who will investigate replays of collisions where a concussion is suspected to have occurred. players are then removed from play for a mandatory 10 minute risk assessment which, if failed, means they cant return to play. quite a sensible move which should definitely be explored further and removes some of the burden of being a tough guy and playing through it
    - animal531 8y ago
      There are concussions in rugby, but they're much rarer. There are many rules protecting players, such as not being allowed to go in with the head or shoulders (you must tackle with your arms). You're not allowed to lift players off the ground, or tackle them around either their necks or heads. On occasion players will still land badly or be tackled by multiple opponents. Studies are a bit rarer, but older players doesn't seem to nearly have the same level of issues as players from the NFL.
outside1234 8y ago
Why is it crazy to replace the helmets on each major impact? This is a multi billion dollar industry
- canadaj 8y ago
  The problem is that replacing the helmets after each play or major impact would take time, and the clock doesn't always stop after a play during football. If we stopped the clock to replace a helmet, we open up the possibility of a team using this to slow down an advancing offense, or by an offense to gain a short timeout in a sense. Basically it just doesn't mesh well with the flow of the game.
  - awakeasleep 8y ago
    As someone who doesn't watch much football because the game doesn't seem to have any flow, it's interesting to hear that it is actually a concern. https://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/i3OtXsk.png https://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/i3OtXs... https://qz.com/150577/an-average-nfl-game-more-than-100-commercials-and-just-11-minutes-of-play/ https://qz.com/150577/an-average-nfl-game-more-than-100-comm...
    - ThirdFoundation 8y ago
      These studies never take into account that the game is still ongoing while the ball is not in play. A lot of the game takes place before the snap, as does the strategy. The offense after a big play sometimes struggles to get to the line of scrimmage in time to snap the ball again. There is a flow and rhythm to the game for those of us who enjoy the sport. Though I can understand where you are coming from.
    - throwawayjava 8y ago
      Parent is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurry-up_offense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurry-up_offense Another interesting thing: one major advantage of speed is actually slowing the game down. E.g., if you move quickly between plays, you can catch the other team with too many men on the field during a substitution. in that case, you sometimes get a "free throw" (if the play works out, you decline the "too many players on field" penalty; but if the play doesn't work out or the other team intercepts the ball, you take the penalty and pretend like the failed play didn't even happen. So you can actually increase the length of the game by moving quickly in-between plays...
keeganpoppen 8y ago
as an increasingly reluctant football fan, this has always been my take on it as well. though the short-term effects of such a change might be kind of wonky, if you remove the super heavy padding the problem of hitting people with impunity because they think they're immune should solve itself in the long run.
Pxtl 8y ago
You could do layered helmets - an inner helmet similar to what they wear today, and a crumpling cycling-style foam block helmet that slips over it. Have a team of runners hand out fresh foam block helmets every play and collect the chunks from the field.
teachrdan 8y ago
You could argue that boxing gloves make boxing more dangerous. Gloves protect the boxer's hands, not their opponents as is widely believed. As per the Wikipedia article below, punches to the head were less common in the bare-knuckle boxing days for fear of boxers injuring their hands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_glove#Safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_glove#Safety
- cm2012 8y ago
  It was also a much much bloodier sport, for what its worth.
  - acct1771 8y ago
    One knockout punch, or 40 smaller ones? CTE gets you, either way.
joezydeco 8y ago
This is the viewpoint the NFL obviously won't address. They enjoy the game being turned into a hyper-violent gladiator sport.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

vermontdevil 8y ago

Rugby does not have a helmet (except for the padded ones) and yet they still have concussion issues. I think there’s no clear answer although I agree about removing face mask. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155428/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155428/

ealexhudson 8y ago
Football has never had them, there is occasional concussion but certainly long term damage from heading the ball. Increasingly, the take is that pre 12yo kids shouldn't be having any blows to the head. Having a helmet likely doesn't help that much until you get to the point of a major hit.
poulsbohemian 8y ago
I played organized American Football from the time I was a kid. Went to at the time the biggest high school in the state. I don't recall ever having any kind of head injuries despite getting hit a lot. Went out in college to try Rugby as a club sport. First practice, horrific concussion. I am a sample size of one, but I'd much rather my son play American Football than Rugby. If he gets to the college or pro level, then we can have a John Urshel type conversation about whether to continue.
- rhombocombus 8y ago
  I am not sure that you need a frank concussion to rack up long term damage though. Soccer players can acquire CTE from repeated headers of the ball, which rarely cause the kind of concussions you're takling about. I think the take away from all the present research is that it's generally a bad idea to bonk your head into things repeatedly, whatever the sport.
- rhizome 8y ago
  Have you considered the possibility that the difference is that you played American Football against smaller people?
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
    When I graduated from high school I was 155 pounds - not exactly large. Which is part of my point here. For pro calibre players, significant physical growth often happens in those college and early pro years. If you've never stood next to a professional player - even the smaller ones - they are physical freaks, at least during their playing years. The typical pre-college player in this country is a much more normal-bodied person, thus assuming good technique, etc, they are no more at risk playing American Football than any other sport.
- beachwood23 8y ago
  One thing to consider is the way you learned to tackle. Tackling technique is very different. If you used the same "Hit em hard" tackling that is common in American Football, I'm not surprised you had a concussion your first day of rugby practice. Your tackling technique didn't emphasize head protection.
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
    Quite the opposite - I got tackled and hit my head on the ground. An injury that might have been prevented with a helmet.
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
Twirrim 8y ago
As I understand it, Rugby has a lower incident rate of concussion, and it's more the outcome of accidents than as a direct aspect of the tackling. That said, it's a very different style of play in Rugby to American Football. Rugby players just don't deliberately go in with their head for the tackle, which is something you often see with NFL players (some NFL teams have experimented with helmet free tackling practice and seen it improve the game-time tackling effectiveness) The lack of a stop of play after every tackle in Rugby also tends to ensure players are opting for tackles that they can recover from. In American Football the expectation is for contact / hit with every play. Contact is just a staple part of every single play for every player. In Rugby, contact is largely down to those with the ball, and those specifically attempting to tackle them. It's a very different contact profile, even before you consider things like helmets and padding and what that does to the mindset of the players.
- kodablah 8y ago
  I see them lowering their heads into rucks or tackles. While there are fewer hits of course (in football, obstruction/blocking is encouraged off the ball) I think, anecdotally based on watching a lot of both, that rugby players and trainers don't account for concussion incidents as well. You see in both NFL and rugby league/union players shrugging off trainers attempting to take them out of a game, but I feel like I see many more rugby players returning to action after obvious grogginess akin to what I saw in the NFL a decade ago. There is under reporting in both sports too of course.
  - marliechiller 8y ago
    rugby has recently introduced a rule whereby there is a pitch-side doctor who will investigate replays of collisions where a concussion is suspected to have occurred. players are then removed from play for a mandatory 10 minute risk assessment which, if failed, means they cant return to play. quite a sensible move which should definitely be explored further and removes some of the burden of being a tough guy and playing through it
  - animal531 8y ago
    There are concussions in rugby, but they're much rarer. There are many rules protecting players, such as not being allowed to go in with the head or shoulders (you must tackle with your arms). You're not allowed to lift players off the ground, or tackle them around either their necks or heads. On occasion players will still land badly or be tackled by multiple opponents. Studies are a bit rarer, but older players doesn't seem to nearly have the same level of issues as players from the NFL.

outside1234 8y ago

Why is it crazy to replace the helmets on each major impact? This is a multi billion dollar industry

canadaj 8y ago
The problem is that replacing the helmets after each play or major impact would take time, and the clock doesn't always stop after a play during football. If we stopped the clock to replace a helmet, we open up the possibility of a team using this to slow down an advancing offense, or by an offense to gain a short timeout in a sense. Basically it just doesn't mesh well with the flow of the game.
- awakeasleep 8y ago
  As someone who doesn't watch much football because the game doesn't seem to have any flow, it's interesting to hear that it is actually a concern. https://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/i3OtXsk.png https://www.sportsgrid.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/i3OtXs... https://qz.com/150577/an-average-nfl-game-more-than-100-commercials-and-just-11-minutes-of-play/ https://qz.com/150577/an-average-nfl-game-more-than-100-comm...
  - ThirdFoundation 8y ago
    These studies never take into account that the game is still ongoing while the ball is not in play. A lot of the game takes place before the snap, as does the strategy. The offense after a big play sometimes struggles to get to the line of scrimmage in time to snap the ball again. There is a flow and rhythm to the game for those of us who enjoy the sport. Though I can understand where you are coming from.
  - throwawayjava 8y ago
    Parent is referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurry-up_offense https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurry-up_offense Another interesting thing: one major advantage of speed is actually slowing the game down. E.g., if you move quickly between plays, you can catch the other team with too many men on the field during a substitution. in that case, you sometimes get a "free throw" (if the play works out, you decline the "too many players on field" penalty; but if the play doesn't work out or the other team intercepts the ball, you take the penalty and pretend like the failed play didn't even happen. So you can actually increase the length of the game by moving quickly in-between plays...

keeganpoppen 8y ago

as an increasingly reluctant football fan, this has always been my take on it as well. though the short-term effects of such a change might be kind of wonky, if you remove the super heavy padding the problem of hitting people with impunity because they think they're immune should solve itself in the long run.

Pxtl 8y ago

You could do layered helmets - an inner helmet similar to what they wear today, and a crumpling cycling-style foam block helmet that slips over it. Have a team of runners hand out fresh foam block helmets every play and collect the chunks from the field.

teachrdan 8y ago

You could argue that boxing gloves make boxing more dangerous. Gloves protect the boxer's hands, not their opponents as is widely believed. As per the Wikipedia article below, punches to the head were less common in the bare-knuckle boxing days for fear of boxers injuring their hands. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_glove#Safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_glove#Safety

cm2012 8y ago
It was also a much much bloodier sport, for what its worth.
- acct1771 8y ago
  One knockout punch, or 40 smaller ones? CTE gets you, either way.

joezydeco 8y ago

This is the viewpoint the NFL obviously won't address. They enjoy the game being turned into a hyper-violent gladiator sport.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]