8 ms·

You really need accurate material models for this to be any use. Without being able to validate the baseline condition using the same non-linear, anisotropic, m

You really need accurate material models for this to be any use. Without being able to validate the baseline condition using the same non-linear, anisotropic, material behaviour profiles, there's no way to develop new geometry and/or use novel materials, and actually prove it's better than before. They would ideally release their own, repeatable analysis files of their own benchmark condition. I suspect the best helmet for blunt impacts is probably a one/few-time use deal with crumple zones to absorb the energy of the impact and increase the time of the impact. After it's crumpled you would have to swap it out for a new helmet. Curious why they wouldn't just drop their funding on a grant for research in any top10 mechanical engineering department - the knowledge to develop this is readily available and the problem space is a fairly solved one. That being said Tesla has improved crash safety over what decades of safety engineers could do so maybe there is always space for improvement.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
>Curious why they wouldn't just drop their funding on a grant for research in any top10 mechanical engineering department That's wishful thinking for the most part. I spent a fair bit of time as a student employee a ME department. Students who have little real world experience, assignments with specific criteria they need to fill and a handful of other classes and activities competing for their time are not the kind of people you want designing things. You can make them design things but you'll probably toss basically all of it out and start from near scratch if you want to make it suitable for production. ME degrees are about teaching students the process of engineering not about teaching students to produce results and predictably students suck at producing results but do fine with the process. Even the students who are good at delivery results make rookie mistakes and go down time consuming dead ends left and right. Sure you can get some real engineers to hold their hands and help produce results but you'd need to have them so involved that you're better off just having an program to help place students in internships. >Tesla has improved crash safety over what decades of safety engineers could do How so? By building an incrementally stiffer (with regard to passenger cabin) box on wheels enabled by better packaging requirements of an electric drive-train?
- kingkongjaffa 8y ago
  Working research departments != students.
jessaustin 8y ago
Yes that is definitely better. With better materials engineering one could imagine an "active" material that crumpled and then "uncrumpled" itself. Perhaps the uncrumpling would require electric power?
- dallbee 8y ago
  There's research being done with piezo-electrics to achieve this. Pretty neat stuff.
function_seven 8y ago
> That being said Tesla has improved crash safety over what decades of safety engineers could do so maybe there is always space for improvement. Was the lack of big-ass engine in the front an advantage for them? Seems like the empty frunk (and low center of mass?) allows for some engineering that can't be done in a conventional ICE car.
- semi-extrinsic 8y ago
  I'm curious about this statement as well. Do we have any data that shows a Tesla is any better than a roughly comparable (size, weight, cost) brand new ICE car? Say a Lexus GS or a BMW 7 series? They do love to point out they are safer than the NTSB average, but it would be kind of apalling if their cars were not safer than a 10 year old Toyota Corolla (approximately the average car).
  - acct1771 8y ago
    The average is not of the average car, I'm presuming. It's the current average score across today's cars.
  - dingaling 8y ago
    The Euro NCAP ratings gave the Model-S approximately the same rating as the Maserati Quattroporte which is similar in size and shape.
save_ferris 8y ago
The issue with the crash safety comparison is that helmets need to withstand many impacts before being replaced since it would be crazy to replace a helmet every play or two. One possible answer is that, in order to truly solve this problem, the sport must do away with facemasks or helmets altogether. Mike Ditka has long proposed removing the facemask, claiming that it has encouraged players to weaponize their heads for hits without fear of injury [0]. Researchers in the medical community have been echoing this as well, arguing that helmets do far more damage than they prevent [1]. More and more, the league, and the sport in general, look to treat the "symptoms" of this issue rather than addressing the root cause. [0] http://bleacherreport.com/articles/495469-nfl-helmet-to-helmet-hits-mike-ditkas-solution-get-rid-of-helmets http://bleacherreport.com/articles/495469-nfl-helmet-to-helm... [1] http://natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-51.1.06?code=nata-site http://natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-51.1.06?co...
- vermontdevil 8y ago
  Rugby does not have a helmet (except for the padded ones) and yet they still have concussion issues. I think there’s no clear answer although I agree about removing face mask. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155428/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155428/
  - ealexhudson 8y ago
    Football has never had them, there is occasional concussion but certainly long term damage from heading the ball. Increasingly, the take is that pre 12yo kids shouldn't be having any blows to the head. Having a helmet likely doesn't help that much until you get to the point of a major hit.
  - poulsbohemian 8y ago
    I played organized American Football from the time I was a kid. Went to at the time the biggest high school in the state. I don't recall ever having any kind of head injuries despite getting hit a lot. Went out in college to try Rugby as a club sport. First practice, horrific concussion. I am a sample size of one, but I'd much rather my son play American Football than Rugby. If he gets to the college or pro level, then we can have a John Urshel type conversation about whether to continue.
jdietrich 8y ago
>I suspect the best helmet for blunt impacts is probably a one/few-time use deal with crumple zones to absorb the energy of the impact and increase the time of the impact. After it's crumpled you would have to swap it out for a new helmet. Bicycle and motorbike helmets already work like this. The energy-dissipative layer is made from expanded polystyrene foam, which permanently deforms and fractures on impact. The downside is that they're a one-shot item - once a helmet has taken an impact, it loses integrity and should be disposed of. Helmets for football and hockey use a polypropylene foam, which doesn't absorb as much energy but will withstand multiple impacts. Polystyrene foam would be impractical at best for these helmets. There is often no visible evidence that a polystyrene helmet liner has been structurally compromised, so a player or coach has no way of checking that the helmet is still providing useful protection. If the helmet isn't replaced after every impact, then it might be offering less protection in practice than a polyurethane helmet. The real villain here isn't the blunt force of a linear impact, but the rotation of the brain within the skull. This causes deep structural damage in the lower parts of the brain. Dealing with these forces is far more challenging, but I suspect that there are significant gains to be made with respect to the shape and structure of the wire face shield. The smooth plastic of the helmet's shell tends to produce glancing impacts with minimal rotation, but the face shield can snag and create horrendous rotational forces. https://www.popsci.com/what-happens-to-football-players-brain-during-concussion https://www.popsci.com/what-happens-to-football-players-brai... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fbioe.2013.00015/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fbioe.2013.0001...
- timerol 8y ago
  Bike helments use MIPS to help mitigate rotational forces. (https://www.bicycleroots.com/blog/mips-helmet-technology-what-it-is-and-why-you-need-it/ https://www.bicycleroots.com/blog/mips-helmet-technology-wha...) I wonder if something like that would make sense in the NFL to help lower rotational impact.
Pxtl 8y ago
Alternately (although this would really change the sport) you could look at moving away from mounting the head-protection on the head. Instead you mount a cage on the chest and shoulder pads - like a spinal recovery halo brace without the skull drills. A wearable rollcage. It would look absurd and reduce their mobility, but it would shift the impacts from the head to the torso.
- jamiek88 8y ago
  Like the HANS device in F1? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device
ieoen02mdke 8y ago
Seems like the black rubber “bumpers” are intended to provide the “crumple zone” effect The helmet compresses into the bumpers?
iteriteratedone 8y ago
Why change the whole helmet , have crumple zones on front top and bottom and swap those parts out This would probably be done alot the first half, but time management is too important to stop play for this kind of thing in the last couple of minutes

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

>Curious why they wouldn't just drop their funding on a grant for research in any top10 mechanical engineering department That's wishful thinking for the most part. I spent a fair bit of time as a student employee a ME department. Students who have little real world experience, assignments with specific criteria they need to fill and a handful of other classes and activities competing for their time are not the kind of people you want designing things. You can make them design things but you'll probably toss basically all of it out and start from near scratch if you want to make it suitable for production. ME degrees are about teaching students the process of engineering not about teaching students to produce results and predictably students suck at producing results but do fine with the process. Even the students who are good at delivery results make rookie mistakes and go down time consuming dead ends left and right. Sure you can get some real engineers to hold their hands and help produce results but you'd need to have them so involved that you're better off just having an program to help place students in internships. >Tesla has improved crash safety over what decades of safety engineers could do How so? By building an incrementally stiffer (with regard to passenger cabin) box on wheels enabled by better packaging requirements of an electric drive-train?

kingkongjaffa 8y ago
Working research departments != students.

jessaustin 8y ago

Yes that is definitely better. With better materials engineering one could imagine an "active" material that crumpled and then "uncrumpled" itself. Perhaps the uncrumpling would require electric power?

dallbee 8y ago
There's research being done with piezo-electrics to achieve this. Pretty neat stuff.

function_seven 8y ago

> That being said Tesla has improved crash safety over what decades of safety engineers could do so maybe there is always space for improvement. Was the lack of big-ass engine in the front an advantage for them? Seems like the empty frunk (and low center of mass?) allows for some engineering that can't be done in a conventional ICE car.

semi-extrinsic 8y ago
I'm curious about this statement as well. Do we have any data that shows a Tesla is any better than a roughly comparable (size, weight, cost) brand new ICE car? Say a Lexus GS or a BMW 7 series? They do love to point out they are safer than the NTSB average, but it would be kind of apalling if their cars were not safer than a 10 year old Toyota Corolla (approximately the average car).
- acct1771 8y ago
  The average is not of the average car, I'm presuming. It's the current average score across today's cars.
- dingaling 8y ago
  The Euro NCAP ratings gave the Model-S approximately the same rating as the Maserati Quattroporte which is similar in size and shape.

save_ferris 8y ago

The issue with the crash safety comparison is that helmets need to withstand many impacts before being replaced since it would be crazy to replace a helmet every play or two. One possible answer is that, in order to truly solve this problem, the sport must do away with facemasks or helmets altogether. Mike Ditka has long proposed removing the facemask, claiming that it has encouraged players to weaponize their heads for hits without fear of injury [0]. Researchers in the medical community have been echoing this as well, arguing that helmets do far more damage than they prevent [1]. More and more, the league, and the sport in general, look to treat the "symptoms" of this issue rather than addressing the root cause. [0] http://bleacherreport.com/articles/495469-nfl-helmet-to-helmet-hits-mike-ditkas-solution-get-rid-of-helmets http://bleacherreport.com/articles/495469-nfl-helmet-to-helm... [1] http://natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-51.1.06?code=nata-site http://natajournals.org/doi/pdf/10.4085/1062-6050-51.1.06?co...

vermontdevil 8y ago
Rugby does not have a helmet (except for the padded ones) and yet they still have concussion issues. I think there’s no clear answer although I agree about removing face mask. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155428/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC155428/
- ealexhudson 8y ago
  Football has never had them, there is occasional concussion but certainly long term damage from heading the ball. Increasingly, the take is that pre 12yo kids shouldn't be having any blows to the head. Having a helmet likely doesn't help that much until you get to the point of a major hit.
- poulsbohemian 8y ago
  I played organized American Football from the time I was a kid. Went to at the time the biggest high school in the state. I don't recall ever having any kind of head injuries despite getting hit a lot. Went out in college to try Rugby as a club sport. First practice, horrific concussion. I am a sample size of one, but I'd much rather my son play American Football than Rugby. If he gets to the college or pro level, then we can have a John Urshel type conversation about whether to continue.

jdietrich 8y ago

>I suspect the best helmet for blunt impacts is probably a one/few-time use deal with crumple zones to absorb the energy of the impact and increase the time of the impact. After it's crumpled you would have to swap it out for a new helmet. Bicycle and motorbike helmets already work like this. The energy-dissipative layer is made from expanded polystyrene foam, which permanently deforms and fractures on impact. The downside is that they're a one-shot item - once a helmet has taken an impact, it loses integrity and should be disposed of. Helmets for football and hockey use a polypropylene foam, which doesn't absorb as much energy but will withstand multiple impacts. Polystyrene foam would be impractical at best for these helmets. There is often no visible evidence that a polystyrene helmet liner has been structurally compromised, so a player or coach has no way of checking that the helmet is still providing useful protection. If the helmet isn't replaced after every impact, then it might be offering less protection in practice than a polyurethane helmet. The real villain here isn't the blunt force of a linear impact, but the rotation of the brain within the skull. This causes deep structural damage in the lower parts of the brain. Dealing with these forces is far more challenging, but I suspect that there are significant gains to be made with respect to the shape and structure of the wire face shield. The smooth plastic of the helmet's shell tends to produce glancing impacts with minimal rotation, but the face shield can snag and create horrendous rotational forces. https://www.popsci.com/what-happens-to-football-players-brain-during-concussion https://www.popsci.com/what-happens-to-football-players-brai... https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fbioe.2013.00015/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fbioe.2013.0001...

timerol 8y ago
Bike helments use MIPS to help mitigate rotational forces. (https://www.bicycleroots.com/blog/mips-helmet-technology-what-it-is-and-why-you-need-it/ https://www.bicycleroots.com/blog/mips-helmet-technology-wha...) I wonder if something like that would make sense in the NFL to help lower rotational impact.

Pxtl 8y ago

Alternately (although this would really change the sport) you could look at moving away from mounting the head-protection on the head. Instead you mount a cage on the chest and shoulder pads - like a spinal recovery halo brace without the skull drills. A wearable rollcage. It would look absurd and reduce their mobility, but it would shift the impacts from the head to the torso.

jamiek88 8y ago
Like the HANS device in F1? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HANS_device

ieoen02mdke 8y ago

Seems like the black rubber “bumpers” are intended to provide the “crumple zone” effect The helmet compresses into the bumpers?

iteriteratedone 8y ago

Why change the whole helmet , have crumple zones on front top and bottom and swap those parts out This would probably be done alot the first half, but time management is too important to stop play for this kind of thing in the last couple of minutes