4 ms·

We don't have to beat a dead horse, but a significant chunk of MacBook Pro 2016/2017 and MacBook 2015/2016/2017 users (including me) have had issues with the ne

We don't have to beat a dead horse, but a significant chunk of MacBook Pro 2016/2017 and MacBook 2015/2016/2017 users (including me) have had issues with the new keyboard (keys get stuck). Current MacBook Pros a maximum of 16GB RAM (yes, I know, Intel is to blame) and insane prices for upgrades to the base model. In older MacBooks, you could just replace the memory and hard drive. The current MacBooks and MacBook Pros only have USB-C connectors and a stereo jack, requiring dongles for VGA, HDMI, USB-A, MicroSD, etc. The MacBook line has regressed in quite many ways the last few years. The 'current' Mac Mini and Mac Pro are from the stone age. Heck, the current Mac Mini was a downgrade in many respects compared to the Mac Mini 2012. I have been a Mac user since 2007. But frankly, the whole line has gone down the drain, unless you can drop a few thousand Euros on a 27" iMac with an SSD and a reasonable amount of memory or the iMac Pro. The Dell Precision workstation that I bought 3-4 years ago second hand for ~400 Euro is more than twice as fast as my 1700 Euro MacBook Pro, has three times as much memory, and is expandable (added a 512GB SSD harvested from my 2012 Mac Mini).

auslander 8y ago
I disagree. Name a laptop that beats the shit out of specced macbook ? Not that monster 'gaming' ones, please :D
- JamesMcMinn 8y ago
  Dell's XPS range, for example. Can be configured with more memory, a better display, better port selection, is user upgradable and is still very light and compact...
  - Fnoord 8y ago
    Yeah, no. That device has coil whine (one reason not to get a butterfly keyboard is because of the noise), and the brightness cannot be adjusted manually. The keyboard isn't terrible, but the touchpad isn't as good as a Mac's. The Precision is better, but also more expensive. Interestingly though, I did see XPS line being supported in this hackintosh guide as well as the Xiaomi Notebook Pro.
    - JamesMcMinn 8y ago
      Haven't experience coil whine myself from my XPS 13 9333, or my XPS 15 9560. Dell seem happy to replace the entire device or mainboard if you do get one that has an issue though. I was under the impression the reason not to get a butterfly keyboard was because they are prone to failure due to dust and crumbs? I'm not even sure what you mean by the brightness cannot be manually adjusted? The screen brightness obviously can be manually adjusted, and every XPS laptop I've owned has at least 3 levels of keyboard brightness controllable via F10, software, and can even be set in the BIOS. Precision isn't really better, just different, since you can get one with (older) Quadro GPU rather than a GTX card, and a Xeon rather than Core CPU. The chassis, display, support, build quality is otherwise identical.
      - qubitcoder 8y ago
        I've been very happy with the Dell XPS 9650 thus far. I've used it as my primary development machine for nearly a year. The 4k screen is simply gorgeous; Linux support is fantastic, with everything working out of the box with Ubuntu (particularly 18.04). I also use a 2017 MacBook Pro with touchbar for iOS development. And while I've long recommended the MacBook Pro to others without hesitation, that began to change sometime in the past 2-3 years. The MacBook Pro screen actually looks blurry by comparison to the XPS 4k. Text isn't as sharp, and the colors are less vibrant (although the P3 color space is a nice improvement). It's a bit disappointing that Apple has yet to fundamentally improve upon the once unbeatable 2013 MacBook Pro "retina" screen, despite a few tweaks along the way. However, the XPS 9550 definitely suffered from the annoying coil whine. Moreover, I was never satisfied with the touchpad, especially the palm rejection. There was even a slight delay after tapping, which was just enough to be frustrating during daily use. The fans also came on more than expected, likely due to lackluster power management support for the novel Skylake architecture. And perhaps strangest of all was the repeating "W" key issue. Without rhyme or reason, the "W" key would sometimes repeat, as if being held down (despite not being stuck). Interestingly, there were BIOS updates to address this issue, and based on the Dell's forums, the "W" key issue has affected numerous laptop models over the years. Fortunately, it seems that Dell has finally managed to iron out these growing pains with the 9560. After purchasing it, I quickly upgraded to 32GB of memory, installed a Samsung 960 Pro SSD, and swapped out the Wifi chip for a better performing Intel model. You'd be hard pressed to find a better spec'd machine for linux / software development. I'll be curious to see if Apple can up their game with the 2018 MacBook Pro.
  - toomuchgov 8y ago
    ...and 3 year next-day onsite warranty.
- thestephen 8y ago
  I don't understand what you are "disagreeing" on. What OP is saying: The new Macbooks are very expensive, and it has quality issues (keyboard). Neither is it user serviceable. Most of the product line is also out of date. It's not about performance, which in the terms of Apple's latest hardware (that is, only part of their product line) is perfectly fine. Yes, a specced Macbook is fast, but that does not relate to anything by OP.
- danieldk 8y ago
  I didn't state that other laptops beat the shit out of a specced MacBook (though I am sure they exist). If I need performance, I will use a workstation or a server, they pack Xeon CPUs, CUDA-capable GPUs, etc. Moreover, their CPUs don't throttle under high load. For me, using a Mac for high-performance computing is a long-passed station. My criticism was that MacBooks have become bad laptops for their price. They have a limited number of ports with USB-C, which is not well-supported yet. They keyboard has serious problems, which I don't assume to be a fluke, since I know multiple persons with stuck keys. They are not expandable. And macOS has regressed quite a bit in the last few years. Some of these problems are acceptable in isolation, but regressions are piling up. Then there is crap like that the first generation of Apple's USB-C multi port adapters didn't actually support USB-3.0 transfer speeds, but contain a USB 2.0 hub. Back then I dropped 160 Euro on two adapters (this was before the MBP 2016-related price drop) to use my MacBook with existing screens, projectors, and USB devices. They give you a whole lot of crap about the transfer speeds, but sell you USB 2.0 adapters (!). --- Again, I have been a Mac user for 10 years. In that time I probably bought 5 or 6 Macs, since for some time I used both a Mac Mini and a MacBook. For may years, they were so far ahead of the competition, it was not even funny (excellent suspend support in 2007, MagSafe, battery indicator LEDs, OS X was simply better). I was a strongly advocating Macs among friends and family. Unfortunately, I just can't do that anymore. The risk is too big that they get a flawed keyboard or that they are too frustrated with the 1/2/4 USB-C ports.
  - auslander 8y ago
    'bad laptops for their price' - market says they are OK for the price :)) Look in 5 years, you'll resell your macbook for half the price. Dell laptop? You'd have it in trash bin 2 years ago. I careful with my stuff. Whats the price of changing keyboard by apple?
    - kalleboo 8y ago
      > Look in 5 years, you'll resell your macbook for half the price. I would not buy a 2016/2017 MacBook out of warranty. When the keyboard eventually goes bad, you're looking at a $700 repair
  - 8y ago
- FBISurveillance 8y ago
  Pretty much any professional laptop would let you configure it with 32 GB RAM and 4K screen and boy that screen makes a difference. These days I'm one of those who uses MacBook because they have to, not because they love to. I remember getting my first MacBook ~12 years ago and being really happy while using it. Now, it's rarely pleasant; to repeat what countless others have said: a) This is my third MBP since 2016, other 2 died with keyboard issues (and I could not afford waiting for repairs). This third laptop already has "right arrow" and "C" keys skipping 20% presses. b) Dongle hell: heck, I have to get a dongle to connect the latest iPhone X.
  - briandear 8y ago
    > Dongle hell: heck, I have to get a dongle to connect the latest iPhone X. They have thunderbolt 3 lightning cables available.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
Fnoord 8y ago
FYI: you can still buy the MBP 2015 which was the last iteration before the 2016 version. Mine doesn't sport a force feedback touchpad and has the slowest CPU of the 3 versions available but other than that its a great device. The touchpad is apart from the force feedback one (which I tried out in a demo store) the best touchpad ever, hands down. Nothing comes close. And the force feedback touchpad actually has a disadvantage: it is so large that my hands accidentally touch it while typing. And well, the butterfly keyboard sucks if not for one reason alone: too loud. Mine has left 2x TB2, 2x USB-A (1 left, 1 right), magsafe, audio out, and right HDMI, SD (I'm using a microSD adapter which fits perfectly to close the port against dust). It doesn't have VGA, but I don't need that. It also doesn't have the nifty battery indicator my MBP 2010 had. Its lighter as the MBP 2010 though. Approx 2 kg vs approx 3 kg. But I cannot replace the HDD myself, or the RAM. Which I both did with the MBP 2010. I bought the MBP 2015 as soon as I found out the MBP 2016 was a big step back & I saw a deal for it.
HillaryBriss 8y ago
> unless you can drop a few thousand Euros on a 27" iMac with an SSD and a reasonable amount of memory even then, you need some good luck if you want the machine to last. if one of the HW components goes bad it will cost a lot of time and money to repair. iMac parts can be quite scarce and expensive. and working on an iMac requires more patience and skill than working on a typical home-built PC.

auslander 8y ago

I disagree. Name a laptop that beats the shit out of specced macbook ? Not that monster 'gaming' ones, please :D

JamesMcMinn 8y ago
Dell's XPS range, for example. Can be configured with more memory, a better display, better port selection, is user upgradable and is still very light and compact...
- Fnoord 8y ago
  Yeah, no. That device has coil whine (one reason not to get a butterfly keyboard is because of the noise), and the brightness cannot be adjusted manually. The keyboard isn't terrible, but the touchpad isn't as good as a Mac's. The Precision is better, but also more expensive. Interestingly though, I did see XPS line being supported in this hackintosh guide as well as the Xiaomi Notebook Pro.
  - JamesMcMinn 8y ago
    Haven't experience coil whine myself from my XPS 13 9333, or my XPS 15 9560. Dell seem happy to replace the entire device or mainboard if you do get one that has an issue though. I was under the impression the reason not to get a butterfly keyboard was because they are prone to failure due to dust and crumbs? I'm not even sure what you mean by the brightness cannot be manually adjusted? The screen brightness obviously can be manually adjusted, and every XPS laptop I've owned has at least 3 levels of keyboard brightness controllable via F10, software, and can even be set in the BIOS. Precision isn't really better, just different, since you can get one with (older) Quadro GPU rather than a GTX card, and a Xeon rather than Core CPU. The chassis, display, support, build quality is otherwise identical.
    - qubitcoder 8y ago
      I've been very happy with the Dell XPS 9650 thus far. I've used it as my primary development machine for nearly a year. The 4k screen is simply gorgeous; Linux support is fantastic, with everything working out of the box with Ubuntu (particularly 18.04). I also use a 2017 MacBook Pro with touchbar for iOS development. And while I've long recommended the MacBook Pro to others without hesitation, that began to change sometime in the past 2-3 years. The MacBook Pro screen actually looks blurry by comparison to the XPS 4k. Text isn't as sharp, and the colors are less vibrant (although the P3 color space is a nice improvement). It's a bit disappointing that Apple has yet to fundamentally improve upon the once unbeatable 2013 MacBook Pro "retina" screen, despite a few tweaks along the way. However, the XPS 9550 definitely suffered from the annoying coil whine. Moreover, I was never satisfied with the touchpad, especially the palm rejection. There was even a slight delay after tapping, which was just enough to be frustrating during daily use. The fans also came on more than expected, likely due to lackluster power management support for the novel Skylake architecture. And perhaps strangest of all was the repeating "W" key issue. Without rhyme or reason, the "W" key would sometimes repeat, as if being held down (despite not being stuck). Interestingly, there were BIOS updates to address this issue, and based on the Dell's forums, the "W" key issue has affected numerous laptop models over the years. Fortunately, it seems that Dell has finally managed to iron out these growing pains with the 9560. After purchasing it, I quickly upgraded to 32GB of memory, installed a Samsung 960 Pro SSD, and swapped out the Wifi chip for a better performing Intel model. You'd be hard pressed to find a better spec'd machine for linux / software development. I'll be curious to see if Apple can up their game with the 2018 MacBook Pro.
- toomuchgov 8y ago
  ...and 3 year next-day onsite warranty.
thestephen 8y ago
I don't understand what you are "disagreeing" on. What OP is saying: The new Macbooks are very expensive, and it has quality issues (keyboard). Neither is it user serviceable. Most of the product line is also out of date. It's not about performance, which in the terms of Apple's latest hardware (that is, only part of their product line) is perfectly fine. Yes, a specced Macbook is fast, but that does not relate to anything by OP.
danieldk 8y ago
I didn't state that other laptops beat the shit out of a specced MacBook (though I am sure they exist). If I need performance, I will use a workstation or a server, they pack Xeon CPUs, CUDA-capable GPUs, etc. Moreover, their CPUs don't throttle under high load. For me, using a Mac for high-performance computing is a long-passed station. My criticism was that MacBooks have become bad laptops for their price. They have a limited number of ports with USB-C, which is not well-supported yet. They keyboard has serious problems, which I don't assume to be a fluke, since I know multiple persons with stuck keys. They are not expandable. And macOS has regressed quite a bit in the last few years. Some of these problems are acceptable in isolation, but regressions are piling up. Then there is crap like that the first generation of Apple's USB-C multi port adapters didn't actually support USB-3.0 transfer speeds, but contain a USB 2.0 hub. Back then I dropped 160 Euro on two adapters (this was before the MBP 2016-related price drop) to use my MacBook with existing screens, projectors, and USB devices. They give you a whole lot of crap about the transfer speeds, but sell you USB 2.0 adapters (!). --- Again, I have been a Mac user for 10 years. In that time I probably bought 5 or 6 Macs, since for some time I used both a Mac Mini and a MacBook. For may years, they were so far ahead of the competition, it was not even funny (excellent suspend support in 2007, MagSafe, battery indicator LEDs, OS X was simply better). I was a strongly advocating Macs among friends and family. Unfortunately, I just can't do that anymore. The risk is too big that they get a flawed keyboard or that they are too frustrated with the 1/2/4 USB-C ports.
- auslander 8y ago
  'bad laptops for their price' - market says they are OK for the price :)) Look in 5 years, you'll resell your macbook for half the price. Dell laptop? You'd have it in trash bin 2 years ago. I careful with my stuff. Whats the price of changing keyboard by apple?
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    > Look in 5 years, you'll resell your macbook for half the price. I would not buy a 2016/2017 MacBook out of warranty. When the keyboard eventually goes bad, you're looking at a $700 repair
- 8y ago
FBISurveillance 8y ago
Pretty much any professional laptop would let you configure it with 32 GB RAM and 4K screen and boy that screen makes a difference. These days I'm one of those who uses MacBook because they have to, not because they love to. I remember getting my first MacBook ~12 years ago and being really happy while using it. Now, it's rarely pleasant; to repeat what countless others have said: a) This is my third MBP since 2016, other 2 died with keyboard issues (and I could not afford waiting for repairs). This third laptop already has "right arrow" and "C" keys skipping 20% presses. b) Dongle hell: heck, I have to get a dongle to connect the latest iPhone X.
- briandear 8y ago
  > Dongle hell: heck, I have to get a dongle to connect the latest iPhone X. They have thunderbolt 3 lightning cables available.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

Fnoord 8y ago

FYI: you can still buy the MBP 2015 which was the last iteration before the 2016 version. Mine doesn't sport a force feedback touchpad and has the slowest CPU of the 3 versions available but other than that its a great device. The touchpad is apart from the force feedback one (which I tried out in a demo store) the best touchpad ever, hands down. Nothing comes close. And the force feedback touchpad actually has a disadvantage: it is so large that my hands accidentally touch it while typing. And well, the butterfly keyboard sucks if not for one reason alone: too loud. Mine has left 2x TB2, 2x USB-A (1 left, 1 right), magsafe, audio out, and right HDMI, SD (I'm using a microSD adapter which fits perfectly to close the port against dust). It doesn't have VGA, but I don't need that. It also doesn't have the nifty battery indicator my MBP 2010 had. Its lighter as the MBP 2010 though. Approx 2 kg vs approx 3 kg. But I cannot replace the HDD myself, or the RAM. Which I both did with the MBP 2010. I bought the MBP 2015 as soon as I found out the MBP 2016 was a big step back & I saw a deal for it.

HillaryBriss 8y ago

> unless you can drop a few thousand Euros on a 27" iMac with an SSD and a reasonable amount of memory even then, you need some good luck if you want the machine to last. if one of the HW components goes bad it will cost a lot of time and money to repair. iMac parts can be quite scarce and expensive. and working on an iMac requires more patience and skill than working on a typical home-built PC.