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Apple faces class action lawsuit over failing MacBook butterfly keyboards

322 points by craigc 8y ago

hinkley 8y ago
Apple is in a bad spot. The new MacBook Pro isn’t enough better than the old one, and is demonstrably worse in several ways. I’ve bought very “tock” generation of MBP for a dozen years but I’m skipping this one. I just don’t need the extra horsepower or the extra headaches.
- j45 8y ago
  I returned a new MacBook to go back to my old one until Apple fixes this. Purchasing a can of air is ridiculous - it's not 1995. We might as well buy some rubbing alcohol to clean out the inside of the mouse balls while we're at it. The poor keyboard experience even inspired me to try a new Surface Pro. Ironic, because it was Vista that drove me to a Mac. If the Surface reliably ran MacOS with updates... I may have found my perfect device. As much as I have enjoyed every Macbook I've owned, I can't recommend buying any Macbook for the foreseeable future. A keyboard guaranteed to have issues is unacceptable at this price point, or any really. Apparently, Apple filed a new patent fixing the key/dust issue. Will be checking the new refresh to see if any steps are made forward, but wait for the rattlesnake to bite the other fella first for a few months.
  - hinkley 8y ago
    I have one at work. The keyboard is so loud that I can’t type in meetings anymore. If people didn’t know I was bored before, holy shit do they know now. I also find the new touchpad twitchy and not as good at ignoring palm input.
    - mark212 8y ago
      My experience is the same. The touchbar on my 12” MB is so sensitive the slightest brush will make the cursor jump up to a different position. Very frustrating. And the keyboard is quite loud. Hate the arrow keys too, can’t tell by touch which one is up or down. Had they kept the right-left arrow keys half height, would be super-easy to orient my hand by touch.
    - j45 8y ago
      I noticed the same thing - I usually put every new keyboard through a typeracer.com test or 10.. I guess it gives the feeling of being very productive.
  - bsder 8y ago
    I really like the Microsoft Surface Book. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book/overview https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book... If they would just spend a little bit of time on Linux compatibility they would blast Apple out of a lot of developers hands ...
    - j45 8y ago
      Agreed. I'm itching to do that, and will likely end up with a chromebook. I hope and suspect that the Linux Subsystem for Windows (debian based) will eventually eat all of Windows and provide complete linux support (battery, resume, etc).
    - nkristoffersen 8y ago
      Hopefully Microsoft improves the alleged reliability of the surface book before people start buying it in droves https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/14/16142490/microsoft-surface-consumer-reports-memo-return-rates https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/14/16142490/microsoft-surfac...
      - jodrellblank 8y ago
        That article says that they (claim) they have fixed it. And Microsoft released Surface Book 2 a couple of months after that article, as well.
- DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
  I had the previous generation of MBP (late 2012, retina) and am now using the latest (mid 2017), both of the 15" variety. I have had zero problems with my keyboard, though I acknowledge that this might just be luck. I actually really like that all the ports are Thunderbolt 3/USB-C... but I wish more things supported USB-C to match. Like if the phone were USB-C, and if flash drives were USB-C, I'd be set. It's frustrating to have to carry dongles around, for sure. I loved the SD card slot and HDMI port on the previous generation because I used them somewhat regularly, so lacking those is a disappointment. I'd be much happier if I had four T-3 ports plus the SD card slot and HDMI port. The ability to charge out of any port is actually nifty, though; I use both sides regularly. There are a lot of things I like better, though. I actually prefer the new keyboard (I hated how the previous generation's keys wiggled). The new screen is really phenomenal. The larger touchpad is really nice. The lessened weight is also a plus. Touch ID is pretty cool, though I'm very uninterested in the TouchBar (no strong feelings either way). And otherwise they're practically the same, except for moderately improved internal specs. For me, the new model has been a net positive. I think if I were having keyboard issues like so many others, that opinion would change, but with my present luck I am happy with it.
  - ScottBurson 8y ago
    I have one of these -- seems to work pretty well: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B075FZ43MD/ref=oh_aui_i_d_old_o0_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B075FZ43MD/ref=oh_aui_i_d_old...
  - m-p-3 8y ago
    If at least the updated the magic mouse to USB-C. Some ofnour users needs to carry a USB-A to USB-C dongle just to recharge it on the road.
- mbell 8y ago
  > Apple is in a bad spot. They have beat sales estimates on the MBP and still show growth despite a contracting market. A few people raging on hacker news is not representative of the market, nor even software developers as a whole.
  - gondo 8y ago
    loosing influencers (IT professionals are influencers for their family and friends) will hurt apple in the long run.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      True but they'll have the finance allowing for rebound in case their numbers goes down in the future.
    - mratzloff 8y ago
      A few people raging on Hacker News is not representative of all influencers, either. As a counterpoint, my current MBP (more than a year old) is half the weight of my old one, and while the keyboard is worse, it's not significant enough for me to jettison the entire ecosystem, which is great. The Touch Bar is fine for me, though I've configured it to act like my old machine. Summary: +2 points weight +1 point improved display and resolution -1 point keyboard +0 points Touch Bar
      - lowbloodsugar 8y ago
        >it's not significant enough for me to jettison the entire ecosystem But significant enough that I bought a five-year-old used MBP rather than buy a new one. I don't care about weight: I miss the 17". And improved resolution? It's the same in 2017 as it was in 2013. 2017 MBP compared to used 2013 MBP CPU +16% GPU + 200% RAM + 0% Display + 0% Weight 4.46lb vs 4.02lbs Keyboard failure rate: +100% Cost difference $2,000. So basically unless you need graphics, get a used one.
        samat 8y ago
komali2 8y ago
I don't see the lawsuit mentioning the other common failure mode - keys falling off.
- adamisntdead 8y ago
  Me too, and they say it will be over $500 to fix as they need a whole new casing
  - Zak 8y ago
    This is what turns it from a minor issue to a severe one in my mind. I've killed a few keyboards on older Thinkpads. The replacement part was maybe $50 new, and considerably less for a used one on Ebay. It's not integrated with any other component and can be changed in 10 minutes with only a Phillips screwdriver. I'm sure integrating the keyboard with the expensive machined aluminum upper case, trackpad and whatever else is built into that component resulted in a laptop that's 1mm thinner.
    - cjcampbell 8y ago
      I have encountered Lenovo integrating the keyboard on other some of their models while helping friends with repairs. Of course, the top case replacement was not so insanely expensive, but it was still a point of frustration from the repair perspective. Certainly disappointed in Apple making the same move here.
    - amiga-workbench 8y ago
      I had to swap the keyboard on a coworkers 2012 Macbook Pro once. You had to totally empty the machines guts out and remove about 50 tiny torx screws to get the keyboard out. Never again.
  - bbrian 8y ago
    I recently got mine replaced under warranty (CMD key was broken!) and was told $280 when I asked what the cost would be otherwise. It's still extortionate. Part number 605-02931 for 13" 2016 MBP. Interestingly, when I searched for that number, I learned Twitter OCRs images you post: https://www.google.com/search?q=605-02931+macbook https://www.google.com/search?q=605-02931+macbook
jankotek 8y ago
Apple is a joke. My experience with Dell XPS 13: Keyboard failed, most likely some dirt or liquid. I was in foreign country so bad situation. Dell technician arrived next day to my hotel and changed keyboard in front of me. They even got correct keyboard layout (czech). This was done as part of basic 2 year warranty, I have no business plan.
- marsRoverDev 8y ago
  I can vouch for this - had my charger overnighted in a foreign country free of charge. I used to be able to rely on Apple to put this kind of effort in, but I don't think I would be able to today. Dell are really trying.
  - ghostly_s 8y ago
    I received a DOA monitor from Dell last month and they tried to tell me I could only get it replaced with a refurb, after an hour on the phone they finally agreed to replace it. Then it took literally a month of waiting days between emails asking me to provide bits of info I already provided in the first phone call before the finally delivered it. Why is there PC support so different?
    - blakes 8y ago
      Mostly because their monitors very rarely have issues. I've personally deployed/managed probably over a thousand Dell ultrasharp monitors and over the course of nearly ten years, I've only seen one go bad. And I do remember it was not easy getting it replaced, a relative ordeal compared to ProSupport on the PC. Their PC support is seriously unmatched, I tell everyone to get the Pro support and accidental coverage for laptops, I have many stories of Dell asking no questions and sending brand new replacements. My favorite is the 3k precision laptop that fell off a crane and we sent back essentially a box of whatever was left and two days later had an exact replacement.
    - KSS42 8y ago
      I bought a 4K monitor that had a slight inclusion. I called up Dell and I received a new one within a 2 days. (And they never did ask for first one back)
oliv__ 8y ago
Great. Hopefully this will force/cause them to reevaluate the butterfly keyboards and get back to a more sensible design. Or if they really have to keep those (imo) awful keyboards, I feel like they could at least offer more clicky/soft/silent keyboards as an option.
- wingworks 8y ago
  Agreed, I don't mind the new keyboard (apart from when a key fails), the only issue I have is how much louder they are than the old style.
artursapek 8y ago
I manage a team of roughly 10 devs and I have seen them one at a time get pissed off at their MB Pro and ask to switch to using a Linux machine. The keyboard is always the biggest complaint. I even made our company change its onboarding process to offer the option of buying a Windows laptop and installing some distro of Linux on it instead of just giving everyone a Mac (which they and the rest of Silicon Valley have been doing for years). I bought my first Thinkpad when I checked out the new MB Pros when they came out in Fall of ‘16. I was so disgusted by the keyboard that I went home and bought my X1 Carbon and learned how to set up a Linux machine (surprisingly easy!) Apple has really lost its way. They’re selling eye candy now, not work machines.
- justinator 8y ago
  Do y'all just work on laptops, or do you usually plug in the laptop to an external monitor/keyboard/screen, then use the laptop solely when in meetings/away from your desk? I couldn't imagine using the new Macbook's keyboard full-time - I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing. For now - and this seems to be the feeling around me, better to use an external keyboard for most of the time. I personally cannot even touchtype of the 15" keyboard on the new Macbooks, as it differs ever so slightly, but too much from my 13" at home. I'm already mentally-mapping out four other keyboards I work on. I may not be able to do a fifth!
  - DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
    > I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing What? How?? Like are you just an extremely heavy typist or what? I've been using my 2017 15-inch MBP for probably multiple hours a day (on average) since August, and I've had no problems. I get that there's a fair amount of luck involved there, but I don't understand how you can literally break the keys just by typing.
    - justinator 8y ago
      "typing" (banging) on them too hard. I have very large, very strong hands, I guess. The keyboard did develop a separate (but related) issue though: certain key presses weren't being registered, unless I really pressed down HARD. No amount of cleaning seemed to help. I just thought something wrong with my fingers/hands, from typing so much in my life! Was I developing a working disability, akin to carpel tunnel or something? It was only when I replaced the keyboard in full did I realized my slowness and difficulty in typing was the keyboard, and not me! My WPM count went up almost 2x. I enjoyed writing for pleasure, again.
inamberclad 8y ago
I've got no idea why the new macbook is the way it is. Apple really missed a sweet opportunity to move the mac and iphone over to usb-c at the same time. They could have easily added two usb-c ports while keeping a usb-a port and the SD card reader. At the same time, they could have moved the iphone to usb-c and converge a lot of their designs into something clean and easy. I'm typing this on an xps-13 while charging both my phone and laptop over usb-c with the same charger and cable. Instead, apple now has multiple incompatible cables and devices. Not only has the rest of the industry caught up to them, apple has regressed in the meantime.
- abtinf 8y ago
  My work recently bought me a new laptop. I could have picked anything. I went with the now-3-years-old mbp, with sane ports. The fact they still sell them new probably means there are a lot of people who think like me. If I’d purchased a new model, I would’ve also needed to purchase a fistful of dongles. It makes no sense. And I would have had to use the awful keyboard. I don’t like the feel of it, but I can deal with that. What I can’t deal with is the keys randomly failing due to minor dirt, as so many reports indicate. I travel for work and it would be a catastrophe if the space key stopped working. I also really wish they would add a lightning port to the mbp, so I could take just one set of headphones with me.
  - danielbln 8y ago
    As written below, we've done the same for some devs here. The 2015 model just as too many useful features that are now missing for no apparent reason. The new MBP has tinny sound, no magsafe, no hdmi, crappy keyboard, failing usb-c ports, the whole dongle fiasco.. it's just not a good value proposition for the price, compared to the predecessor.
    - Zak 8y ago
      I think replacing the proprietary magsafe plug with standard USB-C is a good idea, but not if the implementation is failure-prone. Tangentially related, I wonder why they haven't replaced the proprietary plug on their phones and tablets with USB-C.
snissn 8y ago
I got a $2 can of compressed air and it helped my keyboard a lot - posting in case it helps some other hackers
- kondro 8y ago
  We are an all Mac office and I can assure you that compressed air works great… until it doesn’t anymore.
  - wingworks 8y ago
    Yep, I used compressed air on my new MBP maybe 5 times before it stopped "fixing" the issue. Now, after a lot of hassle, I have managed to get Apple to fix the keyboard. MBP has been at an AASP since last week Monday, fingers crossed it'll be fixed soon... I was pretty tempted to just buy a new MBP from Apple while my current Mac is in repair and return the new one when my Mac got fixed.
yborg 8y ago
Being design-forward is fine, but Apple fell completely into the trap of "function follows form". The in retrospect aptly-shaped "trashcan" Mac Pro was probably the ultimate expression of this. But at this point they're not a computer company, so the products need to be viewed in this light. They've decided to be a luxury brand, in which form is in fact more important than function, and the correctness of this decision is shown by their financials. But when you buy a Macbook Pro, you have to be aware that you're essentially buying a Louis Vuitton, or - dare I say it? - Burberry laptop. It's meant to be seen, not used.
- pvg 8y ago
  Apple fell [...] Mac Pro was probably the ultimate expression of this. You should take a look at, well, Apple's 30-odd-year catalog. Various industrial design screwups pop up fairly regularly and they're invariably interpreted as a profound insight into whatever it is people think Apple is doing horribly wrong at the particular time.
  - amiga-workbench 8y ago
    Just look at the original Macintoshes, the lack of a cooling fan meant the machines suffered from pretty bad chip creep. The official solution was to pick your machine up and drop it from a height of several inches to re-seat the chips. Absolutely hilarious.
    - pvg 8y ago
      I think that was the Apple III. You don't want to be dropping a CRT.
      - amiga-workbench 8y ago
        I just looked it up again, you're exactly right. Yeah, sudden jolts really wouldn't be healthy for the stem on a CRT.
- glogla 8y ago
dep_b 8y ago
Thank god I bought the 2015. Not sure how long to hold out to buy a laptop for my wife. She's a graphics artist and is really really really tired of using Windows.
- danielbln 8y ago
  They still sell the 2015 new, it's a bit hidden, but available. We bought one a few months ago for a dev, after his second MBP had failing USB-C ports. The new MBP seems like such a weird step back. Sound is worse, keyboard is arguably worse, unnecessarily reductive (and often faulty) ports, gimmicky touch bar, no more magsafe, etc.
  - lloydde 8y ago
    My work laptop is a 2015 manufactured late 2017, but I haven’t been able to figure out how/where to buy this directly. Is it only available through business channels?
    - wool_gather 8y ago
      Nope, general availability -- just scroll down on the "buy" page: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - Aditya_Garg 8y ago
    Are you saying that they are selling the 2015 on the Apple website? Could you show me where? I couldn't find it on their website.
    - yellowbkpk 8y ago
      They sell the 15" "Late 2015" model: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MJLQ2LL/A&step=config# https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MJLQ2...
rileymat2 8y ago
I have several keys that randomly type twice, I hate it. Went through the tech support and at the end they wanted me to reinstall the OS. But that is pretty much nonsense, as when I hit the key in a different place, it reacts differently.
naturalgradient 8y ago
I have a 2015 Macbook Pro and Im sort of anxious because if it breaks, I really don't want to get a butterfly keyboard one. Is there any idea when they will release a successor?
- abtinf 8y ago
  They still sell that model new.
Gaelan 8y ago
When it works, the butterfly is great. Feels a lot better than older MBP keyboards. However, it does have frequent issues. If Apple can fix that while keeping the feeling of typing, it would be great.
- solomatov 8y ago
  And what about typing speed? I feel that I type slower on the new MBP than on older models.
  - Gaelan 8y ago
    I don't think I've noticed a difference, but it's not something I've been paying attention to.
  - cjcampbell 8y ago
    I assume this varies from person to person. My accuracy is better, so it’s a net improvement.
satysin 8y ago
At the start of the year I bought a full spec 15" MBP. Two weeks in the B key stopped working so I took it to the Apple Store and they literally gave me a brand new one. Why did the B key stop working? Apparently it was a crumb. So I had a total system replacement of a £3000 laptop because of a crumb. Insane. Yes I know the broken one will be repaired and re-sold as a refurb but still that is just crazy. I ended up returning the MBP for a refund anyway as I really didn't enjoy the new butterfly keyboard. I found it quite painful to type on for more than about 20 minutes. I strongly feel the latest generation MBP is a step backwards in what a "professional" wants and needs from such a machine. Sure make the consumer MacBook model as thin as possible but don't butcher the Pro model to save 0.2mm by introducing a god awful keyboard and removing a bunch of crucial ports so we have to rely on bloody dongles! Ninja Edit: Forgot to mention how much I hated the TouchBar. What sucks is the actual idea of the touchbar is pretty nice but replacing the function keys with it on a Pro machine is idiotic. They could have easily added the touchbar while keeping the function keys but decided not to probably to be minimal/simple.
- eric_h 8y ago
  > I found it quite painful to type on for more than about 20 minutes I keep hearing this. I've been using the new keyboard for > 1 yr and I literally have no complaints. I have adjusted my typing style to a bit lighter of a touch as the keys don't travel as far, but I've not experienced any discomfort.
  - dharmab 8y ago
    I don't find it painful, but it is noticeably less pleasant to type on even compared to other laptops.
    - always_good 8y ago
      I found the keyboard to be amazing for the first week. But the clicky punch immediately degrades even if you don't get a nanoparticle under one of your keys. They regress quickly to a mushy tactile feel. It's as if nobody at Apple tested the keyboard for more than a week, nor outside of a pristine cleanroom. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the root cause of all this, because I could see why someone would think the keyboard was an upgrade if that was the extent of the QA testing. If the keyboard felt like it did the first week but for four years, I would consider it an upgrade. But it's a comically far cry from that.
flyinglizard 8y ago
I'm on my second 13" MBP, after this exact problem. The first one had this problem pretty severely on the 'n' key, the new one has it on 'j' but not as bad. Anyway, this helps prevent the accidental double taps on the bad keys: https://github.com/toothbrush/debounce-mac https://github.com/toothbrush/debounce-mac
justinph 8y ago
I have come to appreciate the new keyboard, primarily because the keys feel more stable under fingers than the older keyboards. The shorter travel doesn't bother me, though the additional noise is slightly annoying and the arrow key layout is sub-par. But, on the whole, the keyboard is fine. I've only had mine for three months, so it remains to be seen how it holds up. It's the other parts of the MBP design that suck: USB-C induced dongle hell is real. The touchbar is a useless gimmick. Battery life isn't great.
sophistication 8y ago
I love how Apple is finally shooting itself in the foot by the atrocious repairability of their devices. The keyboard in the A1706/7/8 MBP is extremely time-consuming to replace because you need to get your dremel tool out and undo an umpteen of tiny bolts and then replace them with tiny screws as this video demonstrates: https://youtu.be/YMueATtTcQg?t=879 https://youtu.be/YMueATtTcQg?t=879 In previous models, you could at least simply rip the keyboard out like this (which was of course an imposition as well): https://youtu.be/2PyhbiwUkE0?t=1229 https://youtu.be/2PyhbiwUkE0?t=1229 Imagine if the keyboard was simply screwed on in the first place. The keyboard plate would maybe need to be 1 mm thicker, making the entire device thicker by as much, but an AASP worker could simply replace the thing in a 5 minute job (instead of 2 hours, i.e. never). PS: Could someone vouch me. HN thinks I'm a bot.
dmix 8y ago
Anyone know what this means for non-US residents? We're in Canada and my partners 12" Macbook keyboard has failed 3 times, requiring the complete replacement of her Macbook once and the whole top-case twice. Which caused plenty of downtime for repairs, usually weeks at a time. Now she's experiencing small problems for the 4th time. Maybe if it succeeds someone can create a class-action in Canadian courts...
- colejohnson66 8y ago
  Can you even use court cases from a different country as precedent?
  - dmix 8y ago
    My spouse who's a Canadian lawyer said a number of Canadian laws have referenced American (and historically more importantly British) law as examples during proceedings but they can't be cited directly as precedent case-law. It's just a helpful data point when establishing new laws and assisting judges to form their legal opinions in cases without existing examples within Canadian law... and I'd assume also inspire Canadian lawyers to form their own class actions when they've already been tested in American courts. I was just curious if foreign parties could play any role in American ones, which I doubt is the case.
solomatov 8y ago
I had to pay ~$700 for a repair of my work MacBook Pro 15" because I tried to fix the problem by removing the key cap and cleaning under it. My current work computer is old MacBook Pro. My personal one is Dell XPS 13" and if nothing happens to their design, my next work computer likely will be Dell Precision 15".
Alex3917 8y ago
The fact that the keys occasionally stop working is a problem. The bigger problem is that this can't be fixed in stores, and it takes 13 days to get your computer back once you ship it to Apple.
- Stratoscope 8y ago
  Yikes. On pretty much any ThinkPad except for the X1 series, replacing the keyboard is a five minute task you can do yourself, and Lenovo will overnight you a new keyboard. The only tool needed is a #1 Philips screwdriver. Alas, the X1 Carbon and X1 Yoga abandoned this design. The keyboard is no longer a CRU (Customer Replaceable Unit). It's a complete teardown to get to it. But if you get the onsite service option they will send someone out the next business day to replace it.
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    Once upon a time, Apple keyboards were just two hooks and a hinge away from replacement (and RAM was right under there too) http://www.laptoppartstore.com/uploads/9/3/9/4/9394972/5075539_orig.jpg http://www.laptoppartstore.com/uploads/9/3/9/4/9394972/50755...
- robbyt 8y ago
  Ive brought my 2017 mbp to the Apple store in soho (NYC) twice to get stuck keys fixed. Both times it took about 10mns. (and they said they fix the new keys very frequently...)
pentae 8y ago
On my third New-gen 13" Macbook Pro, can confirm it's the worst laptop i've owned in 10+ years
Nk26 8y ago
I haven't had a key fail on my 2017 yet, but the keys are all over the place in terms of how they feel. The delete key works but feels like not actuating properly. The spacebar is awful.
jetsnoc 8y ago
I manage software development teams. I spend my days in video meetings, writing emails, reviewing code (sometimes writing it on side projects to keep current) and writing documents. I type 120 WPM and live and die by my keyboard. Most of the time I am using an external keyboard but when I travel or work flexibly away from my house, it's all on the butterfly keyboard. After a year, several keys were useless, - enter ;, j and e. They would stick and repeat the character too much, or not recognize a hit at all. Like a good Apple fan boy I always purchase Apple care so I was able to send it in for repair but being without a machine for three days was a non-starter. So, I ordered a Lenovo T480S, installed Linux and prepared an environment for when my MBP 2016 touchbar unit went back to Apple. My MBP has been back from Apple for two months now and I have yet to boot it.... The keyboard on this Lenovo is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to be able to work again :) And, its not just me we've had 4 MBP Touchbar retinas have keys fail around the 9mos to 1yr mark. One 3 of them, Apple gave us grief as if it was standard "wear and tear." Uh, ya, these $4K aluminum rigs are going to be around dust, and humans have hair ... and... well its on you to make a more resilient key switch Apple... As for me, sticking with Lenovo box from here on out.
- sedachv 8y ago
  > The keyboard on this Lenovo [T480S] is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to be able to work again :) It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations wrt keyboards. I feel like Thinkpad keyboards have gone steadily downhill since the ~2005 T4x series (I still use a T43 on a regular basis, and do side-to-side comparisons between it and newer machines). Macbook keyboards by comparison are nearly unusable, unergonomic garbage: key caps not shaped, linear action with very harsh bottoming, comically oversize trackpad that you always manage to accidentally press with your palm while typing, sharp edge case that pokes into your wrists. Typing on a Macbook is slow and results in pain halfway through the day. Even the bottom of the barrel Acer Aspire One with the flat key caps (again, a machine I actually own and regularly use and can make comparisons against) provides a better typing experience.
  - syshum 8y ago
    >>>It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations You could have stopped there.. The entire Apple Product line is the same way, Is it proof positive that Marketing Drives the world not quality, technology, or anything else. Apple is all marketing and no substance
Reason077 8y ago
The "debris gumming up the keys" issue with the MacBook butterfly keyboard is certainly annoying. But there's a pretty easy fix in my experience: a few strategically delivered bursts from an air duster will clean them out nicely. Apple even provides a guide on how to do it: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT205662 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT205662
- always_good 8y ago
  The bigger issue is the loosening of the C-clamps due to this inevitable wear that makes the keys come right off. Also, this happened to me inside of four months with the computer. I didn't have to air-can my previous Macbook Air for the four years I had it.
- andyv133 8y ago
  Someone should have taken a step back when they were writing that guide and said "Wait, what? Why is this even necessary?" To think that they're recommending that and some people are accepting that as a real solution makes me think the Reality Distortion Field is alive and well. Now contrast that to laptops with drain holes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7cvi00OZDM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7cvi00OZDM
- Lio 8y ago
  Might be worth pointing out that “air” dusters are not canned air. They can one of a number of aerosol propellants that you don’t want to breath and aren’t good for the environment either. Poison Gas spray would be a better description.
modernerd 8y ago
Two keys are failing on my MBP 15" (one rocks and sticks; the other is loose on one corner and occasionally falls out). I have AppleCare and my options were to: - Send or deliver the laptop for repair and wait ~1-2 weeks for its return. - Pay ~$35 for two replacement keys and butterfly mechanisms from an online spares shop and attempt the repair myself. I chose to pay the $35 — the keys should be here next week. I'm now concerned this will recur after the fix unless I only use an external keyboard, which seems daft for a laptop. After 15+ years of buying Apple laptops I'm seriously considering making the repair myself then selling the laptop, and buying a Lenovo or Dell. I type 100wpm+ and good keyboards are so important, but I'd really miss several macOS-specific apps (Sketch, iTerm, Airmail).
- hellcow 8y ago
  I recently went through the same Mac to Windows conversion. For a Sketch replacement, try Lunacy by Icons8 -- it's a Sketch clone for Windows (not quite as good, but pretty damn close, and it opens even complex sketch files perfectly). It's also free. For an iTerm replacement, use ConEmu with WSL. You'll have to fiddle around with the settings to make it look good, but it's hugely customizable, and then you can run Ubuntu or Arch or whatever else you want natively on Windows.
  - modernerd 8y ago
    Thanks for the tips — I'm nervous about returning to Windows so had expected to use Linux, but will give it some more thought.
  - dzonga 8y ago
    figma runs in the browser. equally powerful as sketch
- always_good 8y ago
  I think the only rational option is to sell the laptop after a repair. I personally would go back to an older model, like the latest Macbook Air that has regular keyboard (I don't think it has butteryfly keys yet). Otherwise it's a good time to switch. But frankly I was unimpressed with my Thinkpad. Felt like death by a million papercuts whether using Windows or Linux.
ksec 8y ago
I wish there is something as World Wide Class Action. The biggest problem isn't with the design issues here. Apple is not perfect, every new design will come with its own set of problem and trade offs. Normally most of these are Net positive gain. This time around I am pretty sure the Keyboard is mostly a step backwards, because reliability is the most important thing for a Keyboard. And what is worst is that people has been complaining about it since 2015, and in 2016, then 2017, two version later they still haven't done a thing, apart from making the keyboard louder to make you think you pressed the button. There is still a lot to love for the iPhone. ( Even that is going downhill, but still loveable ) But Mac has been on the sideline with no attention and care. I would beg Tim Cook please do not come out and say you Love or you care about the Mac. You are no Steve Jobs and do not have Reality Distortion Field. When you say something like you you are only really taking a piss and add insult to injury. And last note: Please prove me wrong in WWDC 2018.
- wilsonnb 8y ago
  The 2017 keyboards have been an improvement over the previous iteration. Less failures. It's also ridiculous to say that they don't care about the Mac when they just released the iMac Pro and are currently designing the new Mac pro.
  - wingworks 8y ago
    They may "care" but nowhere near to the level they used to. It's clear that they get more revenue from the iPhone and spend most of there money there (understandable), vs the Mac line.
  - redial 8y ago
    They say they care, their actions have proven otherwise. They need more than a promise of a new Mac Pro and an iMac Pro which starts at $5000 to win back their most loyal Mac fans after years, literally years of neglect. And after this, they are gonna need years to rebuild that trust.
    - wilsonnb 8y ago
esotericsean 8y ago
Still using my mid-2015 rMBP, waiting to upgrade until Apple fixes the issues with the current gen. Also waiting for at least 32GB RAM.
- liquidify 8y ago
  I've got 16GB in a 2010, and I've been wanting more since. No idea why they are stuck in 2009 - 2010.
gshakir 8y ago
I love the butterfly keyboard and one of the key did get stuck and since then I started using compressed air once a week and it looks good so far after an year. So I would suggest the same for others and refrain from eating around your keyboard as much as possible.
- tqkxzugoaupvwqr 8y ago
  I hope Apple reads this and sees how absurd their design is if people go to such lengths to keep their machine from failing.
  - gshakir 8y ago
    Using compressed air is not so bad. Plus I like my MacBook Pro look new and shiny :)
gshakir 8y ago
May be this lawsuit will prompt free (or low cost) keyboard repairs similar to $29 battery replacement.
jimejim 8y ago
I've had the keyboard replaced twice for the exact same issue, the "B" key kept repeating. I'll probably have to pay extra if it happens again, but already you I've lost about days waiting on the repair since they have to ship it out. I prefer to use an external keyboard when I can, but that can't be avoided all the time.
fermienrico 8y ago
Apple filed a patent for ingress prevention this year to address this issue. Not sure when it will make it into production: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20180068808A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US20180068808A1/en
- appleiigs 8y ago
  lol, awesome. If i'm reading correctly, back to a rubber dome keyboard.
- gammarator 8y ago
  1. I wonder if they could replace existing keyboards with the new design. 2. Some of the designs they show look like they would still allow dust to get in but make it even more impossible to get out...
bonestamp2 8y ago
I upgrade my two macbook pro 15" every year. I have not upgraded since 2015 due to these keyboards. Come on apple. Go back to the 2015 keyboard... nobody ever complained about that keyboard. This is the risk of "fixing" a problem that doesn't exist... you can actually break something that was reliable.
waytogo 8y ago
Had also one key which was registered as two key strokes every fifth to tenth time. Super annoying and the solution was strange: after vacuum cleaning and blowing the keyboard many times the only thing that helped was resetting the NVRAM with Command + Option + P + R.
ryanbertrand 8y ago
My B, and Up/Down Arrow keys were either hard to press or would “double” events. I now have a compressed air bottle next to my desk. It seems to do its job but I never had to do this with my previous MacBooks! Another issue I face is pain in my first finger joints (right below the fingernail bed) after a long day of typing. Maybe I just have heavy fingers but the old softer keys were less harsh. Another unrelated (we’ll it is like a keyboard, right? :) issue is the TouchBar requiring two taps for most things. I even have my TouchBar as “static” with just a few buttons.
Camillo 8y ago
If anyone working at Apple is reading this, know that this keyboard has cost you two laptop purchases from me alone. At work I still use a 15" MBP from four years ago. I would have happily updated by now (if nothing else, because the anti-glare coating peeled off in the center of the screen); instead, I'm going to keep it until you abandon the butterfly keyboard. And for my personal machine, I have an even older 13" laptop. I was going to buy a 13" MBP, but I won't buy anything that has that butterfly keyboard.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jamiegreen 8y ago
The worst part for me is the sound, the noise is so much more irritating than other keyboards for some reason. I think perhaps because of the higher pitch.
ErikAugust 8y ago
I would gladly pay top dollar for the 2013/2014 MBP with upgraded internals. Beautiful machine.
luigi23 8y ago
I've got 15" 2017 and for me the keyboard is not the biggest problem; rather it's the integrated graphics. Intel HD 630 is so bad that I can spot the lag during scroll in Safari. I switched to Radeon by turning on Photos.app(yes, if you ran Photos it would switch to discrete graphics). I just can't grasp why the 13" has better integrated graphics than 15".
roryisok 8y ago
I don't understand why this deserves a class action lawsuit. Sure, it's not a great design, but is it bad enough to sue over? All companies release flawed products all the time
erdojo 8y ago
I cuently have tree keys acting up. It's a pain in the ass and as much as I've loved Apple poducts fo almost 3 years, I'm eady to give them the old eave o. Translation: I currently have three keys acting up. It's a pain in the ass and as much as I've loved Apple products for almost 30 years, I'm ready to give them the old heave ho.
kahlonel 8y ago
whoeversaysmacbookkeyboarddoesn'tworkisclearlylying /s
eriktrautman 8y ago
I’ve hated that keyboard with the fiery passion of a thousand suns since the first time I used it and it kept getting worse with every stuck key - one of several reasons why the 12” MB is a “Bimbo” model that looks pretty and works like crap - but the idea of fixing this via lawsuit seems like a bad precedent. Their design sucks and the whole world needs to know how terrible it is but using lawsuits in this way for what ultimately comes down to a product just being kind of crappy seems innovation stifling. Give permission to make crappy things and let the market penalize you for it.
deckarep 8y ago
Hey Apple...please prioritize robustness over thinness...I don’t care if my laptop is super thin and has keys that only have to travel .00000003 millimeters if the thing isn’t going to work after a dust particle falls on it.
crazygringo 8y ago
Sure, the new keyboard is polarizing. I personally love it, but I get why others hate it. But nobody seems to be mentioning that the old Macbook keyboards failed too, collected dust and debris just as much (in my personal experience). Probably once a month I'd have to pry off a keycap, blow below, and snap the keycap back on. Half the time it would be the space bar. Now it's the same thing, except you use a can of compressed air instead [1]. Which I have to do, again, probably once a month. Yes it seems dumb to have to buy one (and it's not like they warn you in advance), but on the other hand, I'm no longer worried about breaking the mechanism when snapping on/off. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662
segmondy 8y ago
Apple has lots of cash, The vultures(lawyers) who like class action lawsuits will endless look for and try to find a case against Apple so they can extract a lot of money and line their pockets.
- rileymat2 8y ago
  As someone with a problem machine, I would prefer my money in the pockets of a vulture than Apple.
dirtylowprofile 8y ago
Typing this comment in my MBP 2012, when did this butterfly keyboard started? On what model?
makecheck 8y ago
If the average resolution is at least one $700 keyboard replacement plus 1-2 weeks (and they really should calculate a dollar amount for lost time), this ought to be massive. Yet, like many class actions, this will probably end handing out $3 checks or some other insulting amount. What we really need to hope is that they’ve been working on a redesign or reverted design for awhile, as these things take years.
abrkn 8y ago
I spend a lot of time in the tropics (Thailand) and my keyboard gets stuck keys all the time. It's currently my single quote key. I have tried massaging it, smacking it, faith healing, etc. Nothing helps.

322 points by craigc 8y ago

Apple is in a bad spot. The new MacBook Pro isn’t enough better than the old one, and is demonstrably worse in several ways. I’ve bought very “tock” generation of MBP for a dozen years but I’m skipping this one. I just don’t need the extra horsepower or the extra headaches.

j45 8y ago
I returned a new MacBook to go back to my old one until Apple fixes this. Purchasing a can of air is ridiculous - it's not 1995. We might as well buy some rubbing alcohol to clean out the inside of the mouse balls while we're at it. The poor keyboard experience even inspired me to try a new Surface Pro. Ironic, because it was Vista that drove me to a Mac. If the Surface reliably ran MacOS with updates... I may have found my perfect device. As much as I have enjoyed every Macbook I've owned, I can't recommend buying any Macbook for the foreseeable future. A keyboard guaranteed to have issues is unacceptable at this price point, or any really. Apparently, Apple filed a new patent fixing the key/dust issue. Will be checking the new refresh to see if any steps are made forward, but wait for the rattlesnake to bite the other fella first for a few months.
- hinkley 8y ago
  I have one at work. The keyboard is so loud that I can’t type in meetings anymore. If people didn’t know I was bored before, holy shit do they know now. I also find the new touchpad twitchy and not as good at ignoring palm input.
  - mark212 8y ago
    My experience is the same. The touchbar on my 12” MB is so sensitive the slightest brush will make the cursor jump up to a different position. Very frustrating. And the keyboard is quite loud. Hate the arrow keys too, can’t tell by touch which one is up or down. Had they kept the right-left arrow keys half height, would be super-easy to orient my hand by touch.
  - j45 8y ago
    I noticed the same thing - I usually put every new keyboard through a typeracer.com test or 10.. I guess it gives the feeling of being very productive.
- bsder 8y ago
  I really like the Microsoft Surface Book. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book/overview https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-book... If they would just spend a little bit of time on Linux compatibility they would blast Apple out of a lot of developers hands ...
  - j45 8y ago
    Agreed. I'm itching to do that, and will likely end up with a chromebook. I hope and suspect that the Linux Subsystem for Windows (debian based) will eventually eat all of Windows and provide complete linux support (battery, resume, etc).
  - nkristoffersen 8y ago
    Hopefully Microsoft improves the alleged reliability of the surface book before people start buying it in droves https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/14/16142490/microsoft-surface-consumer-reports-memo-return-rates https://www.theverge.com/2017/8/14/16142490/microsoft-surfac...
    - jodrellblank 8y ago
      That article says that they (claim) they have fixed it. And Microsoft released Surface Book 2 a couple of months after that article, as well.
DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
I had the previous generation of MBP (late 2012, retina) and am now using the latest (mid 2017), both of the 15" variety. I have had zero problems with my keyboard, though I acknowledge that this might just be luck. I actually really like that all the ports are Thunderbolt 3/USB-C... but I wish more things supported USB-C to match. Like if the phone were USB-C, and if flash drives were USB-C, I'd be set. It's frustrating to have to carry dongles around, for sure. I loved the SD card slot and HDMI port on the previous generation because I used them somewhat regularly, so lacking those is a disappointment. I'd be much happier if I had four T-3 ports plus the SD card slot and HDMI port. The ability to charge out of any port is actually nifty, though; I use both sides regularly. There are a lot of things I like better, though. I actually prefer the new keyboard (I hated how the previous generation's keys wiggled). The new screen is really phenomenal. The larger touchpad is really nice. The lessened weight is also a plus. Touch ID is pretty cool, though I'm very uninterested in the TouchBar (no strong feelings either way). And otherwise they're practically the same, except for moderately improved internal specs. For me, the new model has been a net positive. I think if I were having keyboard issues like so many others, that opinion would change, but with my present luck I am happy with it.
- ScottBurson 8y ago
  I have one of these -- seems to work pretty well: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B075FZ43MD/ref=oh_aui_i_d_old_o0_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B075FZ43MD/ref=oh_aui_i_d_old...
- m-p-3 8y ago
  If at least the updated the magic mouse to USB-C. Some ofnour users needs to carry a USB-A to USB-C dongle just to recharge it on the road.
mbell 8y ago
> Apple is in a bad spot. They have beat sales estimates on the MBP and still show growth despite a contracting market. A few people raging on hacker news is not representative of the market, nor even software developers as a whole.
- gondo 8y ago
  loosing influencers (IT professionals are influencers for their family and friends) will hurt apple in the long run.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    True but they'll have the finance allowing for rebound in case their numbers goes down in the future.
  - mratzloff 8y ago
    A few people raging on Hacker News is not representative of all influencers, either. As a counterpoint, my current MBP (more than a year old) is half the weight of my old one, and while the keyboard is worse, it's not significant enough for me to jettison the entire ecosystem, which is great. The Touch Bar is fine for me, though I've configured it to act like my old machine. Summary: +2 points weight +1 point improved display and resolution -1 point keyboard +0 points Touch Bar
    - lowbloodsugar 8y ago
      >it's not significant enough for me to jettison the entire ecosystem But significant enough that I bought a five-year-old used MBP rather than buy a new one. I don't care about weight: I miss the 17". And improved resolution? It's the same in 2017 as it was in 2013. 2017 MBP compared to used 2013 MBP CPU +16% GPU + 200% RAM + 0% Display + 0% Weight 4.46lb vs 4.02lbs Keyboard failure rate: +100% Cost difference $2,000. So basically unless you need graphics, get a used one.
      - samat 8y ago

komali2 8y ago

I don't see the lawsuit mentioning the other common failure mode - keys falling off.

adamisntdead 8y ago
Me too, and they say it will be over $500 to fix as they need a whole new casing
- Zak 8y ago
  This is what turns it from a minor issue to a severe one in my mind. I've killed a few keyboards on older Thinkpads. The replacement part was maybe $50 new, and considerably less for a used one on Ebay. It's not integrated with any other component and can be changed in 10 minutes with only a Phillips screwdriver. I'm sure integrating the keyboard with the expensive machined aluminum upper case, trackpad and whatever else is built into that component resulted in a laptop that's 1mm thinner.
  - cjcampbell 8y ago
    I have encountered Lenovo integrating the keyboard on other some of their models while helping friends with repairs. Of course, the top case replacement was not so insanely expensive, but it was still a point of frustration from the repair perspective. Certainly disappointed in Apple making the same move here.
  - amiga-workbench 8y ago
    I had to swap the keyboard on a coworkers 2012 Macbook Pro once. You had to totally empty the machines guts out and remove about 50 tiny torx screws to get the keyboard out. Never again.
- bbrian 8y ago
  I recently got mine replaced under warranty (CMD key was broken!) and was told $280 when I asked what the cost would be otherwise. It's still extortionate. Part number 605-02931 for 13" 2016 MBP. Interestingly, when I searched for that number, I learned Twitter OCRs images you post: https://www.google.com/search?q=605-02931+macbook https://www.google.com/search?q=605-02931+macbook

jankotek 8y ago

Apple is a joke. My experience with Dell XPS 13: Keyboard failed, most likely some dirt or liquid. I was in foreign country so bad situation. Dell technician arrived next day to my hotel and changed keyboard in front of me. They even got correct keyboard layout (czech). This was done as part of basic 2 year warranty, I have no business plan.

marsRoverDev 8y ago
I can vouch for this - had my charger overnighted in a foreign country free of charge. I used to be able to rely on Apple to put this kind of effort in, but I don't think I would be able to today. Dell are really trying.
- ghostly_s 8y ago
  I received a DOA monitor from Dell last month and they tried to tell me I could only get it replaced with a refurb, after an hour on the phone they finally agreed to replace it. Then it took literally a month of waiting days between emails asking me to provide bits of info I already provided in the first phone call before the finally delivered it. Why is there PC support so different?
  - blakes 8y ago
    Mostly because their monitors very rarely have issues. I've personally deployed/managed probably over a thousand Dell ultrasharp monitors and over the course of nearly ten years, I've only seen one go bad. And I do remember it was not easy getting it replaced, a relative ordeal compared to ProSupport on the PC. Their PC support is seriously unmatched, I tell everyone to get the Pro support and accidental coverage for laptops, I have many stories of Dell asking no questions and sending brand new replacements. My favorite is the 3k precision laptop that fell off a crane and we sent back essentially a box of whatever was left and two days later had an exact replacement.
  - KSS42 8y ago
    I bought a 4K monitor that had a slight inclusion. I called up Dell and I received a new one within a 2 days. (And they never did ask for first one back)

oliv__ 8y ago

Great. Hopefully this will force/cause them to reevaluate the butterfly keyboards and get back to a more sensible design. Or if they really have to keep those (imo) awful keyboards, I feel like they could at least offer more clicky/soft/silent keyboards as an option.

wingworks 8y ago
Agreed, I don't mind the new keyboard (apart from when a key fails), the only issue I have is how much louder they are than the old style.

artursapek 8y ago

I manage a team of roughly 10 devs and I have seen them one at a time get pissed off at their MB Pro and ask to switch to using a Linux machine. The keyboard is always the biggest complaint. I even made our company change its onboarding process to offer the option of buying a Windows laptop and installing some distro of Linux on it instead of just giving everyone a Mac (which they and the rest of Silicon Valley have been doing for years). I bought my first Thinkpad when I checked out the new MB Pros when they came out in Fall of ‘16. I was so disgusted by the keyboard that I went home and bought my X1 Carbon and learned how to set up a Linux machine (surprisingly easy!) Apple has really lost its way. They’re selling eye candy now, not work machines.

justinator 8y ago
Do y'all just work on laptops, or do you usually plug in the laptop to an external monitor/keyboard/screen, then use the laptop solely when in meetings/away from your desk? I couldn't imagine using the new Macbook's keyboard full-time - I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing. For now - and this seems to be the feeling around me, better to use an external keyboard for most of the time. I personally cannot even touchtype of the 15" keyboard on the new Macbooks, as it differs ever so slightly, but too much from my 13" at home. I'm already mentally-mapping out four other keyboards I work on. I may not be able to do a fifth!
- DonaldPShimoda 8y ago
  > I've broken the keys (in half) on the 2015 Macbook repeatedly just by typing What? How?? Like are you just an extremely heavy typist or what? I've been using my 2017 15-inch MBP for probably multiple hours a day (on average) since August, and I've had no problems. I get that there's a fair amount of luck involved there, but I don't understand how you can literally break the keys just by typing.
  - justinator 8y ago
    "typing" (banging) on them too hard. I have very large, very strong hands, I guess. The keyboard did develop a separate (but related) issue though: certain key presses weren't being registered, unless I really pressed down HARD. No amount of cleaning seemed to help. I just thought something wrong with my fingers/hands, from typing so much in my life! Was I developing a working disability, akin to carpel tunnel or something? It was only when I replaced the keyboard in full did I realized my slowness and difficulty in typing was the keyboard, and not me! My WPM count went up almost 2x. I enjoyed writing for pleasure, again.

inamberclad 8y ago

I've got no idea why the new macbook is the way it is. Apple really missed a sweet opportunity to move the mac and iphone over to usb-c at the same time. They could have easily added two usb-c ports while keeping a usb-a port and the SD card reader. At the same time, they could have moved the iphone to usb-c and converge a lot of their designs into something clean and easy. I'm typing this on an xps-13 while charging both my phone and laptop over usb-c with the same charger and cable. Instead, apple now has multiple incompatible cables and devices. Not only has the rest of the industry caught up to them, apple has regressed in the meantime.

abtinf 8y ago
My work recently bought me a new laptop. I could have picked anything. I went with the now-3-years-old mbp, with sane ports. The fact they still sell them new probably means there are a lot of people who think like me. If I’d purchased a new model, I would’ve also needed to purchase a fistful of dongles. It makes no sense. And I would have had to use the awful keyboard. I don’t like the feel of it, but I can deal with that. What I can’t deal with is the keys randomly failing due to minor dirt, as so many reports indicate. I travel for work and it would be a catastrophe if the space key stopped working. I also really wish they would add a lightning port to the mbp, so I could take just one set of headphones with me.
- danielbln 8y ago
  As written below, we've done the same for some devs here. The 2015 model just as too many useful features that are now missing for no apparent reason. The new MBP has tinny sound, no magsafe, no hdmi, crappy keyboard, failing usb-c ports, the whole dongle fiasco.. it's just not a good value proposition for the price, compared to the predecessor.
  - Zak 8y ago
    I think replacing the proprietary magsafe plug with standard USB-C is a good idea, but not if the implementation is failure-prone. Tangentially related, I wonder why they haven't replaced the proprietary plug on their phones and tablets with USB-C.

snissn 8y ago

I got a $2 can of compressed air and it helped my keyboard a lot - posting in case it helps some other hackers

kondro 8y ago
We are an all Mac office and I can assure you that compressed air works great… until it doesn’t anymore.
- wingworks 8y ago
  Yep, I used compressed air on my new MBP maybe 5 times before it stopped "fixing" the issue. Now, after a lot of hassle, I have managed to get Apple to fix the keyboard. MBP has been at an AASP since last week Monday, fingers crossed it'll be fixed soon... I was pretty tempted to just buy a new MBP from Apple while my current Mac is in repair and return the new one when my Mac got fixed.

yborg 8y ago

Being design-forward is fine, but Apple fell completely into the trap of "function follows form". The in retrospect aptly-shaped "trashcan" Mac Pro was probably the ultimate expression of this. But at this point they're not a computer company, so the products need to be viewed in this light. They've decided to be a luxury brand, in which form is in fact more important than function, and the correctness of this decision is shown by their financials. But when you buy a Macbook Pro, you have to be aware that you're essentially buying a Louis Vuitton, or - dare I say it? - Burberry laptop. It's meant to be seen, not used.

pvg 8y ago
Apple fell [...] Mac Pro was probably the ultimate expression of this. You should take a look at, well, Apple's 30-odd-year catalog. Various industrial design screwups pop up fairly regularly and they're invariably interpreted as a profound insight into whatever it is people think Apple is doing horribly wrong at the particular time.
- amiga-workbench 8y ago
  Just look at the original Macintoshes, the lack of a cooling fan meant the machines suffered from pretty bad chip creep. The official solution was to pick your machine up and drop it from a height of several inches to re-seat the chips. Absolutely hilarious.
  - pvg 8y ago
    I think that was the Apple III. You don't want to be dropping a CRT.
    - amiga-workbench 8y ago
      I just looked it up again, you're exactly right. Yeah, sudden jolts really wouldn't be healthy for the stem on a CRT.
glogla 8y ago

dep_b 8y ago

Thank god I bought the 2015. Not sure how long to hold out to buy a laptop for my wife. She's a graphics artist and is really really really tired of using Windows.

danielbln 8y ago
They still sell the 2015 new, it's a bit hidden, but available. We bought one a few months ago for a dev, after his second MBP had failing USB-C ports. The new MBP seems like such a weird step back. Sound is worse, keyboard is arguably worse, unnecessarily reductive (and often faulty) ports, gimmicky touch bar, no more magsafe, etc.
- lloydde 8y ago
  My work laptop is a 2015 manufactured late 2017, but I haven’t been able to figure out how/where to buy this directly. Is it only available through business channels?
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    Nope, general availability -- just scroll down on the "buy" page: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro/15-inch
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- Aditya_Garg 8y ago
  Are you saying that they are selling the 2015 on the Apple website? Could you show me where? I couldn't find it on their website.
  - yellowbkpk 8y ago
    They sell the 15" "Late 2015" model: https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MJLQ2LL/A&step=config# https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro?product=MJLQ2...

rileymat2 8y ago

I have several keys that randomly type twice, I hate it. Went through the tech support and at the end they wanted me to reinstall the OS. But that is pretty much nonsense, as when I hit the key in a different place, it reacts differently.

naturalgradient 8y ago

I have a 2015 Macbook Pro and Im sort of anxious because if it breaks, I really don't want to get a butterfly keyboard one. Is there any idea when they will release a successor?

abtinf 8y ago
They still sell that model new.

Gaelan 8y ago

When it works, the butterfly is great. Feels a lot better than older MBP keyboards. However, it does have frequent issues. If Apple can fix that while keeping the feeling of typing, it would be great.

solomatov 8y ago
And what about typing speed? I feel that I type slower on the new MBP than on older models.
- Gaelan 8y ago
  I don't think I've noticed a difference, but it's not something I've been paying attention to.
- cjcampbell 8y ago
  I assume this varies from person to person. My accuracy is better, so it’s a net improvement.

satysin 8y ago

At the start of the year I bought a full spec 15" MBP. Two weeks in the B key stopped working so I took it to the Apple Store and they literally gave me a brand new one. Why did the B key stop working? Apparently it was a crumb. So I had a total system replacement of a £3000 laptop because of a crumb. Insane. Yes I know the broken one will be repaired and re-sold as a refurb but still that is just crazy. I ended up returning the MBP for a refund anyway as I really didn't enjoy the new butterfly keyboard. I found it quite painful to type on for more than about 20 minutes. I strongly feel the latest generation MBP is a step backwards in what a "professional" wants and needs from such a machine. Sure make the consumer MacBook model as thin as possible but don't butcher the Pro model to save 0.2mm by introducing a god awful keyboard and removing a bunch of crucial ports so we have to rely on bloody dongles! Ninja Edit: Forgot to mention how much I hated the TouchBar. What sucks is the actual idea of the touchbar is pretty nice but replacing the function keys with it on a Pro machine is idiotic. They could have easily added the touchbar while keeping the function keys but decided not to probably to be minimal/simple.

eric_h 8y ago
> I found it quite painful to type on for more than about 20 minutes I keep hearing this. I've been using the new keyboard for > 1 yr and I literally have no complaints. I have adjusted my typing style to a bit lighter of a touch as the keys don't travel as far, but I've not experienced any discomfort.
- dharmab 8y ago
  I don't find it painful, but it is noticeably less pleasant to type on even compared to other laptops.
  - always_good 8y ago
    I found the keyboard to be amazing for the first week. But the clicky punch immediately degrades even if you don't get a nanoparticle under one of your keys. They regress quickly to a mushy tactile feel. It's as if nobody at Apple tested the keyboard for more than a week, nor outside of a pristine cleanroom. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's the root cause of all this, because I could see why someone would think the keyboard was an upgrade if that was the extent of the QA testing. If the keyboard felt like it did the first week but for four years, I would consider it an upgrade. But it's a comically far cry from that.

flyinglizard 8y ago

I'm on my second 13" MBP, after this exact problem. The first one had this problem pretty severely on the 'n' key, the new one has it on 'j' but not as bad. Anyway, this helps prevent the accidental double taps on the bad keys: https://github.com/toothbrush/debounce-mac https://github.com/toothbrush/debounce-mac

justinph 8y ago

I have come to appreciate the new keyboard, primarily because the keys feel more stable under fingers than the older keyboards. The shorter travel doesn't bother me, though the additional noise is slightly annoying and the arrow key layout is sub-par. But, on the whole, the keyboard is fine. I've only had mine for three months, so it remains to be seen how it holds up. It's the other parts of the MBP design that suck: USB-C induced dongle hell is real. The touchbar is a useless gimmick. Battery life isn't great.

sophistication 8y ago

I love how Apple is finally shooting itself in the foot by the atrocious repairability of their devices. The keyboard in the A1706/7/8 MBP is extremely time-consuming to replace because you need to get your dremel tool out and undo an umpteen of tiny bolts and then replace them with tiny screws as this video demonstrates: https://youtu.be/YMueATtTcQg?t=879 https://youtu.be/YMueATtTcQg?t=879 In previous models, you could at least simply rip the keyboard out like this (which was of course an imposition as well): https://youtu.be/2PyhbiwUkE0?t=1229 https://youtu.be/2PyhbiwUkE0?t=1229 Imagine if the keyboard was simply screwed on in the first place. The keyboard plate would maybe need to be 1 mm thicker, making the entire device thicker by as much, but an AASP worker could simply replace the thing in a 5 minute job (instead of 2 hours, i.e. never). PS: Could someone vouch me. HN thinks I'm a bot.

dmix 8y ago

Anyone know what this means for non-US residents? We're in Canada and my partners 12" Macbook keyboard has failed 3 times, requiring the complete replacement of her Macbook once and the whole top-case twice. Which caused plenty of downtime for repairs, usually weeks at a time. Now she's experiencing small problems for the 4th time. Maybe if it succeeds someone can create a class-action in Canadian courts...

colejohnson66 8y ago
Can you even use court cases from a different country as precedent?
- dmix 8y ago
  My spouse who's a Canadian lawyer said a number of Canadian laws have referenced American (and historically more importantly British) law as examples during proceedings but they can't be cited directly as precedent case-law. It's just a helpful data point when establishing new laws and assisting judges to form their legal opinions in cases without existing examples within Canadian law... and I'd assume also inspire Canadian lawyers to form their own class actions when they've already been tested in American courts. I was just curious if foreign parties could play any role in American ones, which I doubt is the case.

solomatov 8y ago

I had to pay ~$700 for a repair of my work MacBook Pro 15" because I tried to fix the problem by removing the key cap and cleaning under it. My current work computer is old MacBook Pro. My personal one is Dell XPS 13" and if nothing happens to their design, my next work computer likely will be Dell Precision 15".

Alex3917 8y ago

The fact that the keys occasionally stop working is a problem. The bigger problem is that this can't be fixed in stores, and it takes 13 days to get your computer back once you ship it to Apple.

Stratoscope 8y ago
Yikes. On pretty much any ThinkPad except for the X1 series, replacing the keyboard is a five minute task you can do yourself, and Lenovo will overnight you a new keyboard. The only tool needed is a #1 Philips screwdriver. Alas, the X1 Carbon and X1 Yoga abandoned this design. The keyboard is no longer a CRU (Customer Replaceable Unit). It's a complete teardown to get to it. But if you get the onsite service option they will send someone out the next business day to replace it.
- kalleboo 8y ago
  Once upon a time, Apple keyboards were just two hooks and a hinge away from replacement (and RAM was right under there too) http://www.laptoppartstore.com/uploads/9/3/9/4/9394972/5075539_orig.jpg http://www.laptoppartstore.com/uploads/9/3/9/4/9394972/50755...
robbyt 8y ago
Ive brought my 2017 mbp to the Apple store in soho (NYC) twice to get stuck keys fixed. Both times it took about 10mns. (and they said they fix the new keys very frequently...)

pentae 8y ago

On my third New-gen 13" Macbook Pro, can confirm it's the worst laptop i've owned in 10+ years

Nk26 8y ago

I haven't had a key fail on my 2017 yet, but the keys are all over the place in terms of how they feel. The delete key works but feels like not actuating properly. The spacebar is awful.

jetsnoc 8y ago

I manage software development teams. I spend my days in video meetings, writing emails, reviewing code (sometimes writing it on side projects to keep current) and writing documents. I type 120 WPM and live and die by my keyboard. Most of the time I am using an external keyboard but when I travel or work flexibly away from my house, it's all on the butterfly keyboard. After a year, several keys were useless, - enter ;, j and e. They would stick and repeat the character too much, or not recognize a hit at all. Like a good Apple fan boy I always purchase Apple care so I was able to send it in for repair but being without a machine for three days was a non-starter. So, I ordered a Lenovo T480S, installed Linux and prepared an environment for when my MBP 2016 touchbar unit went back to Apple. My MBP has been back from Apple for two months now and I have yet to boot it.... The keyboard on this Lenovo is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to be able to work again :) And, its not just me we've had 4 MBP Touchbar retinas have keys fail around the 9mos to 1yr mark. One 3 of them, Apple gave us grief as if it was standard "wear and tear." Uh, ya, these $4K aluminum rigs are going to be around dust, and humans have hair ... and... well its on you to make a more resilient key switch Apple... As for me, sticking with Lenovo box from here on out.

sedachv 8y ago
> The keyboard on this Lenovo [T480S] is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to be able to work again :) It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations wrt keyboards. I feel like Thinkpad keyboards have gone steadily downhill since the ~2005 T4x series (I still use a T43 on a regular basis, and do side-to-side comparisons between it and newer machines). Macbook keyboards by comparison are nearly unusable, unergonomic garbage: key caps not shaped, linear action with very harsh bottoming, comically oversize trackpad that you always manage to accidentally press with your palm while typing, sharp edge case that pokes into your wrists. Typing on a Macbook is slow and results in pain halfway through the day. Even the bottom of the barrel Acer Aspire One with the flat key caps (again, a machine I actually own and regularly use and can make comparisons against) provides a better typing experience.
- syshum 8y ago
  >>>It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's expectations You could have stopped there.. The entire Apple Product line is the same way, Is it proof positive that Marketing Drives the world not quality, technology, or anything else. Apple is all marketing and no substance

Reason077 8y ago

The "debris gumming up the keys" issue with the MacBook butterfly keyboard is certainly annoying. But there's a pretty easy fix in my experience: a few strategically delivered bursts from an air duster will clean them out nicely. Apple even provides a guide on how to do it: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT205662 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT205662

always_good 8y ago
The bigger issue is the loosening of the C-clamps due to this inevitable wear that makes the keys come right off. Also, this happened to me inside of four months with the computer. I didn't have to air-can my previous Macbook Air for the four years I had it.
andyv133 8y ago
Someone should have taken a step back when they were writing that guide and said "Wait, what? Why is this even necessary?" To think that they're recommending that and some people are accepting that as a real solution makes me think the Reality Distortion Field is alive and well. Now contrast that to laptops with drain holes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7cvi00OZDM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7cvi00OZDM
Lio 8y ago
Might be worth pointing out that “air” dusters are not canned air. They can one of a number of aerosol propellants that you don’t want to breath and aren’t good for the environment either. Poison Gas spray would be a better description.

modernerd 8y ago

Two keys are failing on my MBP 15" (one rocks and sticks; the other is loose on one corner and occasionally falls out). I have AppleCare and my options were to: - Send or deliver the laptop for repair and wait ~1-2 weeks for its return. - Pay ~$35 for two replacement keys and butterfly mechanisms from an online spares shop and attempt the repair myself. I chose to pay the $35 — the keys should be here next week. I'm now concerned this will recur after the fix unless I only use an external keyboard, which seems daft for a laptop. After 15+ years of buying Apple laptops I'm seriously considering making the repair myself then selling the laptop, and buying a Lenovo or Dell. I type 100wpm+ and good keyboards are so important, but I'd really miss several macOS-specific apps (Sketch, iTerm, Airmail).

hellcow 8y ago
I recently went through the same Mac to Windows conversion. For a Sketch replacement, try Lunacy by Icons8 -- it's a Sketch clone for Windows (not quite as good, but pretty damn close, and it opens even complex sketch files perfectly). It's also free. For an iTerm replacement, use ConEmu with WSL. You'll have to fiddle around with the settings to make it look good, but it's hugely customizable, and then you can run Ubuntu or Arch or whatever else you want natively on Windows.
- modernerd 8y ago
  Thanks for the tips — I'm nervous about returning to Windows so had expected to use Linux, but will give it some more thought.
- dzonga 8y ago
  figma runs in the browser. equally powerful as sketch
always_good 8y ago
I think the only rational option is to sell the laptop after a repair. I personally would go back to an older model, like the latest Macbook Air that has regular keyboard (I don't think it has butteryfly keys yet). Otherwise it's a good time to switch. But frankly I was unimpressed with my Thinkpad. Felt like death by a million papercuts whether using Windows or Linux.

ksec 8y ago

I wish there is something as World Wide Class Action. The biggest problem isn't with the design issues here. Apple is not perfect, every new design will come with its own set of problem and trade offs. Normally most of these are Net positive gain. This time around I am pretty sure the Keyboard is mostly a step backwards, because reliability is the most important thing for a Keyboard. And what is worst is that people has been complaining about it since 2015, and in 2016, then 2017, two version later they still haven't done a thing, apart from making the keyboard louder to make you think you pressed the button. There is still a lot to love for the iPhone. ( Even that is going downhill, but still loveable ) But Mac has been on the sideline with no attention and care. I would beg Tim Cook please do not come out and say you Love or you care about the Mac. You are no Steve Jobs and do not have Reality Distortion Field. When you say something like you you are only really taking a piss and add insult to injury. And last note: Please prove me wrong in WWDC 2018.

wilsonnb 8y ago
The 2017 keyboards have been an improvement over the previous iteration. Less failures. It's also ridiculous to say that they don't care about the Mac when they just released the iMac Pro and are currently designing the new Mac pro.
- wingworks 8y ago
  They may "care" but nowhere near to the level they used to. It's clear that they get more revenue from the iPhone and spend most of there money there (understandable), vs the Mac line.
- redial 8y ago
  They say they care, their actions have proven otherwise. They need more than a promise of a new Mac Pro and an iMac Pro which starts at $5000 to win back their most loyal Mac fans after years, literally years of neglect. And after this, they are gonna need years to rebuild that trust.
  - wilsonnb 8y ago

esotericsean 8y ago

Still using my mid-2015 rMBP, waiting to upgrade until Apple fixes the issues with the current gen. Also waiting for at least 32GB RAM.

liquidify 8y ago
I've got 16GB in a 2010, and I've been wanting more since. No idea why they are stuck in 2009 - 2010.

gshakir 8y ago

I love the butterfly keyboard and one of the key did get stuck and since then I started using compressed air once a week and it looks good so far after an year. So I would suggest the same for others and refrain from eating around your keyboard as much as possible.

tqkxzugoaupvwqr 8y ago
I hope Apple reads this and sees how absurd their design is if people go to such lengths to keep their machine from failing.
- gshakir 8y ago
  Using compressed air is not so bad. Plus I like my MacBook Pro look new and shiny :)

gshakir 8y ago

May be this lawsuit will prompt free (or low cost) keyboard repairs similar to $29 battery replacement.

jimejim 8y ago

I've had the keyboard replaced twice for the exact same issue, the "B" key kept repeating. I'll probably have to pay extra if it happens again, but already you I've lost about days waiting on the repair since they have to ship it out. I prefer to use an external keyboard when I can, but that can't be avoided all the time.

fermienrico 8y ago

Apple filed a patent for ingress prevention this year to address this issue. Not sure when it will make it into production: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20180068808A1/en https://patents.google.com/patent/US20180068808A1/en

appleiigs 8y ago
lol, awesome. If i'm reading correctly, back to a rubber dome keyboard.
gammarator 8y ago
1. I wonder if they could replace existing keyboards with the new design. 2. Some of the designs they show look like they would still allow dust to get in but make it even more impossible to get out...

bonestamp2 8y ago

I upgrade my two macbook pro 15" every year. I have not upgraded since 2015 due to these keyboards. Come on apple. Go back to the 2015 keyboard... nobody ever complained about that keyboard. This is the risk of "fixing" a problem that doesn't exist... you can actually break something that was reliable.

waytogo 8y ago

Had also one key which was registered as two key strokes every fifth to tenth time. Super annoying and the solution was strange: after vacuum cleaning and blowing the keyboard many times the only thing that helped was resetting the NVRAM with Command + Option + P + R.

ryanbertrand 8y ago

My B, and Up/Down Arrow keys were either hard to press or would “double” events. I now have a compressed air bottle next to my desk. It seems to do its job but I never had to do this with my previous MacBooks! Another issue I face is pain in my first finger joints (right below the fingernail bed) after a long day of typing. Maybe I just have heavy fingers but the old softer keys were less harsh. Another unrelated (we’ll it is like a keyboard, right? :) issue is the TouchBar requiring two taps for most things. I even have my TouchBar as “static” with just a few buttons.

Camillo 8y ago

If anyone working at Apple is reading this, know that this keyboard has cost you two laptop purchases from me alone. At work I still use a 15" MBP from four years ago. I would have happily updated by now (if nothing else, because the anti-glare coating peeled off in the center of the screen); instead, I'm going to keep it until you abandon the butterfly keyboard. And for my personal machine, I have an even older 13" laptop. I was going to buy a 13" MBP, but I won't buy anything that has that butterfly keyboard.

deleted 8y ago

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jamiegreen 8y ago

The worst part for me is the sound, the noise is so much more irritating than other keyboards for some reason. I think perhaps because of the higher pitch.

ErikAugust 8y ago

I would gladly pay top dollar for the 2013/2014 MBP with upgraded internals. Beautiful machine.

luigi23 8y ago

I've got 15" 2017 and for me the keyboard is not the biggest problem; rather it's the integrated graphics. Intel HD 630 is so bad that I can spot the lag during scroll in Safari. I switched to Radeon by turning on Photos.app(yes, if you ran Photos it would switch to discrete graphics). I just can't grasp why the 13" has better integrated graphics than 15".

roryisok 8y ago

I don't understand why this deserves a class action lawsuit. Sure, it's not a great design, but is it bad enough to sue over? All companies release flawed products all the time

erdojo 8y ago

I cuently have tree keys acting up. It's a pain in the ass and as much as I've loved Apple poducts fo almost 3 years, I'm eady to give them the old eave o. Translation: I currently have three keys acting up. It's a pain in the ass and as much as I've loved Apple products for almost 30 years, I'm ready to give them the old heave ho.

kahlonel 8y ago

whoeversaysmacbookkeyboarddoesn'tworkisclearlylying /s

eriktrautman 8y ago

I’ve hated that keyboard with the fiery passion of a thousand suns since the first time I used it and it kept getting worse with every stuck key - one of several reasons why the 12” MB is a “Bimbo” model that looks pretty and works like crap - but the idea of fixing this via lawsuit seems like a bad precedent. Their design sucks and the whole world needs to know how terrible it is but using lawsuits in this way for what ultimately comes down to a product just being kind of crappy seems innovation stifling. Give permission to make crappy things and let the market penalize you for it.

deckarep 8y ago

Hey Apple...please prioritize robustness over thinness...I don’t care if my laptop is super thin and has keys that only have to travel .00000003 millimeters if the thing isn’t going to work after a dust particle falls on it.

crazygringo 8y ago

Sure, the new keyboard is polarizing. I personally love it, but I get why others hate it. But nobody seems to be mentioning that the old Macbook keyboards failed too, collected dust and debris just as much (in my personal experience). Probably once a month I'd have to pry off a keycap, blow below, and snap the keycap back on. Half the time it would be the space bar. Now it's the same thing, except you use a can of compressed air instead [1]. Which I have to do, again, probably once a month. Yes it seems dumb to have to buy one (and it's not like they warn you in advance), but on the other hand, I'm no longer worried about breaking the mechanism when snapping on/off. [1] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662

segmondy 8y ago

Apple has lots of cash, The vultures(lawyers) who like class action lawsuits will endless look for and try to find a case against Apple so they can extract a lot of money and line their pockets.

rileymat2 8y ago
As someone with a problem machine, I would prefer my money in the pockets of a vulture than Apple.

dirtylowprofile 8y ago

Typing this comment in my MBP 2012, when did this butterfly keyboard started? On what model?

makecheck 8y ago

If the average resolution is at least one $700 keyboard replacement plus 1-2 weeks (and they really should calculate a dollar amount for lost time), this ought to be massive. Yet, like many class actions, this will probably end handing out $3 checks or some other insulting amount. What we really need to hope is that they’ve been working on a redesign or reverted design for awhile, as these things take years.

abrkn 8y ago

I spend a lot of time in the tropics (Thailand) and my keyboard gets stuck keys all the time. It's currently my single quote key. I have tried massaging it, smacking it, faith healing, etc. Nothing helps.