10 ms·

I think it depends on what you want to optimize for. If you want to optimize for individual productivity (and there are no trust issues) then sure, working fro

I think it depends on what you want to optimize for. If you want to optimize for individual productivity (and there are no trust issues) then sure, working from home is effective. However, you may decide that the individual productivity loss of having people work in an office is outweighed by the group productivity and morale gain from having people working together. Here are some reasons from a holistic company perspective for requiring people to work out of the office: - To more effectively add to the culture of the company. - To take part in ad hoc training opportunities, either to teach someone who needs help, or to learn something from someone when an obstacle is encountered. - To be able to attend in-person meetings or stand-ups when urgent things come up - without the awkwardness and delays of conferencing in multiple people. - To provide mentorship to junior staff. - To collaborate more effectively. - To show clients/prospective clients, partners and recruits, a vibrant and energetic team and working environment that is worth investing in/joining. - To build morale and a sense of teamwork and camaraderie. At the same time, measures need to be taken in the office working environment to ensure that individuals can be productive, which means providing quiet working spaces, enforcing do-not-disturb rules, etc. Last point. To anyone who is running a business where your employees can easily choose to work from home for any company in the world, such as software engineers: creating a vibrant company culture is one of the ways in which you can attract and retain team members. Many people like being part of an in-person team and working with each other on a regular basis. But if they're already working from home and rarely seeing their co-workers, what difference does it make if they choose to work for some startup out of SF?

wolco 8y ago
All of these items can be done remotely. Training/mentoring/team work/stand ups/taking accountibility. Showing clients you have employees working might seem like it will help land some clients if you bring them for a visit but more impressive is having a global remote team you can conference in.
- frockington 8y ago
  You can't greet the client shake their hand and establish a connection over a video conference nearly as easily as you can in person. As a client I find myself paying attention to the little things. Did they offer coffee or water? Did they open the door? How was the handshake? Did they look trustworthy? If you are remoting in a global team it will be more difficult to provide the experience.
  - OpenDrapery 8y ago
    I love the idea that we want to find the smartest people we can find, and hire them. Then tell them they need to drive in to an office every day and fill a seat, on the .01% chance that a client might drop in. Yeah that makes way more sense than just saying, "hey a client is coming in on Thursday, everyone assume your positions! And for FSM's sake, look like you're collaborating!"
  - stctgion 8y ago
    How was the handshake? Surely you can't base your business decisions on such metrics?
  - wolco 8y ago
    If those items are what you judge the business by how would you rate IBM? Firm handshakes, trustworthy rep (sort of) but they never show you the workers.
  - mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
    Is this sarcasm? I can’t tell. If it isn’t, I want to cry or laugh or both one after another.
- gtycomb 8y ago
  I tend to strongly agree. Online meetings for me are direct, initmate and focussed. If we are not prepared yet, we call it off in a minute or two and go do our homework before we decide to meet next time. Productivity, progress made, places where help and collaboriative work is needed, etc are keenly understood in a team.
  - Clubber 8y ago
    You can also mute the guy who constantly wrecks meetings by being long winded and off topic. :)
marianov 8y ago
Culture is bullshit. Professionals working together in a project vs a factory or plantation.
- walshemj 8y ago
  What's your point here ?
  - mamon 8y ago
    Not GP but I think that the point is that the whole "corporate culture" is mostly bullshit - you wouldn't expect factory or farm workers to form a "culture" and "take pride in their work" or "share company values", so why are you expecting all of this from knowledge workers? For me the whole "corporate culture" thing is just an attempt to brainwash people into accepting lower salary, because "we are changing the world here".
    - chrisan 8y ago
      Ya I don’t think I’ve ever been in a “corporate culture” that wasn’t a facade.
      - OpenDrapery 8y ago
        I think when I was younger, I wanted to believe in it. But, yes, now that I'm older and I reflect, I don't think I've ever been part of one that wasn't fake. There are the owners/middle management/laborers. To trick the laborers into thinking that they are part of something is pretty brilliant though.
      - imnotadoctor999 8y ago
        In your view, is there a difference between micromanaging authorian culture compared to a consensus-driven culture where the employees all trust each other? I've seen several different companies from the insidr, and each one has had vastly different cultures. Usually it is an implementation of the CEO/upper management's views of what "corporate culture" is. There's still usually a facade, but that facade is not necessarily disingenuous.
sheeshkebab 8y ago
In thech companies, the only valid reason to be in the office is that often times upper management (those who pay bills/salaries) are restless crowd that can’t sit in one place staring at screen and have grand desire to run around the floor watching people “work”. The rest of your points are absolute bull shit that can all be done remotely.
- fsloth 8y ago
  "The rest of your points are absolute bull shit that can all be done remotely" I disagree mentoring can be as effective when done remotely. The channel width of face-to-face communication is higher than that of any other method. Furthermore, there are a lot of things that are communicated from senior to junior accidentally, for example, some simple efficient pattern of using the IDE, that would not get communicated in a remote setting. The skill transfer can happen of course any which way, from junior to senior, whatever - but serendipitous pairing is often the initial requirement for this skill transfer to happen.
  - tluyben2 8y ago
    > The channel width of face-to-face communication is higher than that of any other method. Research to that effect? I know some people have that, I know I do not. So this absolute statement is already 1 datapoint (me) off. And I know others (who I mentor) who absorb mentoring far better via remote methods. When someone mentors me, I like to chew the information over, research it etc. This goes for most communication for work related matters; I absorb far less if it is told to me face to face than when I read it and have time to thoroughly understand it all. I agree somewhat with the rest but that again can be done remotely: we develop almost everything while in chat; this acidental transfer is even far better than face to face imho. In chat someone says something like ‘I refactor this to that by hitting ctrl-something’ ; all people see it, not only the accidental junior next to you but all of them. And later this can be searched by others while the verbal incidental comms is gone forever. I definitely see the need for face to face meetings, but far less than some people here do. And it would be good to have more research done into this matter: I simply do not see many programmers (and I managed 100s over my professional life) being productive in the setting you suggest. Looking and feeling busy yes (so for the bums on seats type of manager), but productive as in just getting stuff done, in my experience no. But that is anecdotal, like your view, so real research and numbers would be good.
emperorcezar 8y ago
This comment is the epitamy of the tech industry... Responding to actual data with antidote and personal opinion. Followed by the crowds upvoting.
- Infernal 8y ago
  Not to be picky, just an opportunity to inform - the word you're searching for is anecdote, rather than antidote. Also just while I'm here, normally I wouldn't point out spelling but, epitome.
  - emperorcezar 8y ago
    Thanks. I would like to think I can blame auto-correct. v0v
- alexandros 8y ago
  At least it's a tech industry-only phenomenon right? In all the other industries, people are rational data analyzers with no bias whatsoever. If there's an epitomy of the tech industry, it's blaming ourselves for being uniquely bad at things we're actually better at than most.
- sparrish 8y ago
  I would argue that since this subject is about remote workers, the crowds upvoting is data. Think about it.
  - emperorcezar 8y ago
    I feel that one is data collected about productivity, and the other is a community survey. That's another form of data, but I personally wouldn't hold it nearly as high of an indicator as other data.
- ksk 8y ago
  What does "actual data" mean? All data is actual. A study is not the termination of a logical argument. Its a model that someone thinks best explains the gathered data. Most studies don't go anywhere. People keep doing them so we get better and better and eventually stumble upon something useful.
TsomArp 8y ago
Exactly. While I love the flexibility of not having to go to the office once or twice a week, being alone all the time is very rough mentally.
- mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
  Everyone is different. I work alone every day and have not had any difficulty mentally or otherwise. This is probably because I prefer quiet to begin with with and could never stand the office environment.
throwawaymath 8y ago
This comment seems like a great microcosm of remote work discussions on Hacker News. You didn't dismiss remote working in a thread about it, but you tried (maybe imperfectly) to suggest times when it would be a good idea to not work remotely. It is not being received well! In response most commenters are criticizing your point by focusing on whether or not it is technically possible to achieve any of those things while working remotely, which is not your point. One person has even accused you of responding to data with anecdotes and opinion, and another has called your comment BS. Yikes! Remote work kinda seems like a religious topic now. If you don't provide an airtight, empirical justification for why you're not in favor of remote work, you'll hear from people talking your ear off about how everything you suggested is absolutely possible in a remote setting. "But you can mentor someone remotely!", or "You can collaborate super effectively on a remote team if you just do ..." People are talking about "valid reasons" to be working in an office instead of working remotely, as though remote working needs to be the default consideration. There's a disconnect here. To conclude this pretentious meta-analysis of mine: I've worked remotely for four or five years now. I like it, it's cool. I can pick up groceries on a Monday when no one is at the store! But companies shouldn't have to defend why they don't support remote work. Universal telecommuting does not need to be the next step in our evolution as a society, and that's okay.
- endorphone 8y ago
  "focusing on whether or not it is technically possible to achieve any of those things while working remotely, which is not your point" But...it is their point. They are claiming that this laundry list of desirable things are all lost if you support remote work. If they are achievable with remote work the post is irrelevant. I've worked in offices where there was low morale, zero information sharing, little collaboration, and where the meetings were overwhelmingly just a giant waste of time (in the absence of productivity, meetings become a surrogate where you can point to the `accomplishment' of a meeting). I've worked with a remote team where we had fantastic morale and ridiculously good information sharing and cooperation/coordination. Vice versa. None of these things have to be limited to one choice.
- ozim 8y ago
  You know all those guys are extremely smart, easy going, are perfect writers, don't get upset when someone misunderstands them, have great personality that is easily conveyed through digital medium, and work with only as smart and awesome people as them.
sdedovic 8y ago
I agree but I found a mixed strategy worked best. Monday, Friday in the office. Wednesday, Thursday out. That way I can get a feel for the week on Monday and a retrospective on Friday. Plus Fridays is usually the "Culture Building" day (taking it easy, maybe having a beer in the afternoon, playing some board games). And Monday's are great to catch up with the team after the weekend, bring donuts or some snacks in the morning. The middle of the week is when I can just work and be productive, as a developer. Obviously this isn't a strict schedule. It's just definitely easier for me to pump out my own work at my pace, i.e. "Maker's Schedule". And there is absolutely value in being in the office with the team as you stated above.
- zpr 8y ago
  What about Tuesday?
- loco5niner 8y ago
  > Monday, Friday in the office. Wednesday, Thursday out. That sounds great. No more Tuesdays!
  - wool_gather 8y ago
    Never could get the hang of Tuesdays.
zimbatm 8y ago
This logic doesn't even hold the basic scrutiny. 0. The group productivity argument is completely unsubstantiated. 1. Trust in employees is fundamental, why even go there. 2. There are remote-first companies with great culture. 3. Ad-hoc training works great over Hangouts, I do it all the time. 4. Most meetings are not urgent. For sysops consider having a team on-call. Again it works great over Hangouts. Etc...
- robodale 8y ago
  Agree totally.
swat535 8y ago
Ah yes.. we should sacrifice productivity for the sake of "vibrant company culture", whatever that means. I have been working remotely in a large company and allow me to refute your points. > - To more effectively add to the culture of the company. If your culture is already remote, or shifting towards it, then it's a non issue. > - To take part in ad hoc training opportunities, either to teach someone who needs help, or to learn something from someone when an obstacle is encountered. This works just as well remotely. In fact I would argue it's even more efficient, one can take advantage of super quiet places in a private video chat. > - To be able to attend in-person meetings or stand-ups when urgent things come up - without the awkwardness and delays of conferencing in multiple people. In person meetings, stand ups, team sync meetings are 90% waste of time. Short meetings can be performed quickly in a video call. Notifying team members of something urgent is also very easy. > - To provide mentorship to junior staff. Again, the point is passing along information, whether it's done in person or online makes little difference. In fact if it's done online, I would argue it's more efficient because is a digital trail that one can trace back > - To collaborate more effectively. If your team members fail to collaborate remotely, they will fail to do so in person. Remote has nothing to do with it. > - To show clients/prospective clients, partners and recruits, a vibrant and energetic team and working environment that is worth investing in/joining. Partners and clients don't care how "vibrant" your team is.They care about how good your product is. This point makes no sense > - To build morale and a sense of teamwork and camaraderie. This is hands on SV startup mentally. In person office drinking parties does not create morale. Morale is created by hard work, strong vision and leadership. All of which can be accomplished remotely. The point I'm trying to get across is this: It all depends on the organizational structure. If it's correctly in place, it works very well. As long as there is a clear communication hub between all members, a company can succeed remotely. [EDIT] spelling
- Aaargh20318 8y ago
  > Again, the point is passing along information, whether it's done in person or online makes little difference. But it makes a huge difference for some people like me. Information passed verbally just doesn't stick for me. For some reason it's not properly recorded in my memory and if you ask me about if half an hour later I would have forgotten 80% of what I was told. Now give it to me in writing, and I'd probably remember it until the end of days.
greedo 8y ago
One of the reasons companies like to have employees under one roof is to instill a "gung-ho" attitude. When employees know each other from face to face interactions, there are stronger bonds. These bonds help with employee retention. When employees are remote, they are in essence contractors, with less emotional commitment to a company. When employees aren't as invested (other than financially), retention can be harder.
- Clubber 8y ago
  That works both ways. If there is someone you just don't like at work, having to sit next to them every day really crushes morale. >When employees are remote, they are in essence contractors, with less emotional commitment to a company. When employees aren't as invested (other than financially), retention can be harder. Being able to remote will keep me at a soul sucking company a lot longer than having to drive through rush hour twice a day. Believe this: if you hire someone as a remote programmer, you will get better access to better candidates for less money. Consider it a competitive advantage.
  - greedo 8y ago
    True, but to a company, that's not as important as social cohesion. That's how companies get employees to overwork, to take work home, etc. Social cohesion is the glue that binds employees to their job, instead of the employee realizing it's a job. It's no different than getting free massages, or soda and snacks.
radoslawc 8y ago
This might look like it's emotionally loaded response, but I'm just giving you tough love here: > - To more effectively add to the culture of the company. This is genuine question, what does this even mean? > - To take part in ad hoc training opportunities, either to teach someone who needs help, or to learn something from someone when an obstacle is encountered. This all can be done online and it's even better, if you have to focus on task and there are people constantly bothering you , or vice versa you interrupt someone, this does nothing but lowers productivity > - To be able to attend in-person meetings or stand-ups when urgent things come up - without the awkwardness and delays of conferencing in multiple people. In 15 years of work I've never had this issue, it's more managers' problem I guess, proving that they do something by visually showing that they do something - like organising meetings about nothing. And how it's less awkward to chase people around building than just set up meeting adding it to calendar? > - To provide mentorship to junior staff. There's this thing called documentation ;) > - To collaborate more effectively. We're not raising barn walls, there's a ton of tools to support collaboration > - To show clients/prospective clients, partners and recruits, a vibrant and energetic team and working environment that is worth investing in/joining. At assembly line in car factory, yes. Although this seems to be frequent theme in this industry: dress up and act busy because some big old guys are comming, we have to make good impression. Then there's this crowd of people pacing around asking random questions (imagine what kind, as for most of them 'the internet' is a blue E letter on desktop). Again, that's not productive working. > - To build morale and a sense of teamwork and camaraderie. Making great product that you can be proud of does all of this , or if you really cannot live without 'making great team' just set up some after hours go out or idk paintball or something
- jadavies 8y ago
  >> - To provide mentorship to junior staff. > There's this thing called documentation ;) Mentoring is somewhat more than telling someone to RTFM. A smart engineer who's willing to teach less experienced team members is extremely valuable. The people who are really good at it never see it as a bother, just part of the job. My experience is that it's not as effective with remote teams.
loco5niner 8y ago
> At the same time, measures need to be taken in the office working environment to ensure that individuals can be productive, which means providing quiet working spaces, enforcing do-not-disturb rules, etc. For me, this is the key point. We do NOT have a quiet working space. We are disturbed constantly. :-(
mto 8y ago
Most gamers will object to the last paragraph. There are really a lot of strong friendships without ever meeting in person. Back then eben without ever hearing each other's voice. I've been working for a startup at the other end of the world for 2 years now and rejected lots of much better (remote) offers because I like the team... Which I've never met in person. But I grew up in that ICQ/IRC/Forums culture and as a teenie stayed home alone for weeks while my parents were on vacation, didn't bother me. So certainly a personality thing. Now with wife and kids, my remote working times are the only lone times I have,so I love it.

wolco 8y ago

All of these items can be done remotely. Training/mentoring/team work/stand ups/taking accountibility. Showing clients you have employees working might seem like it will help land some clients if you bring them for a visit but more impressive is having a global remote team you can conference in.

frockington 8y ago
You can't greet the client shake their hand and establish a connection over a video conference nearly as easily as you can in person. As a client I find myself paying attention to the little things. Did they offer coffee or water? Did they open the door? How was the handshake? Did they look trustworthy? If you are remoting in a global team it will be more difficult to provide the experience.
- OpenDrapery 8y ago
  I love the idea that we want to find the smartest people we can find, and hire them. Then tell them they need to drive in to an office every day and fill a seat, on the .01% chance that a client might drop in. Yeah that makes way more sense than just saying, "hey a client is coming in on Thursday, everyone assume your positions! And for FSM's sake, look like you're collaborating!"
- stctgion 8y ago
  How was the handshake? Surely you can't base your business decisions on such metrics?
- wolco 8y ago
  If those items are what you judge the business by how would you rate IBM? Firm handshakes, trustworthy rep (sort of) but they never show you the workers.
- mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
  Is this sarcasm? I can’t tell. If it isn’t, I want to cry or laugh or both one after another.
gtycomb 8y ago
I tend to strongly agree. Online meetings for me are direct, initmate and focussed. If we are not prepared yet, we call it off in a minute or two and go do our homework before we decide to meet next time. Productivity, progress made, places where help and collaboriative work is needed, etc are keenly understood in a team.
- Clubber 8y ago
  You can also mute the guy who constantly wrecks meetings by being long winded and off topic. :)

marianov 8y ago

Culture is bullshit. Professionals working together in a project vs a factory or plantation.

walshemj 8y ago
What's your point here ?
- mamon 8y ago
  Not GP but I think that the point is that the whole "corporate culture" is mostly bullshit - you wouldn't expect factory or farm workers to form a "culture" and "take pride in their work" or "share company values", so why are you expecting all of this from knowledge workers? For me the whole "corporate culture" thing is just an attempt to brainwash people into accepting lower salary, because "we are changing the world here".
  - chrisan 8y ago
    Ya I don’t think I’ve ever been in a “corporate culture” that wasn’t a facade.
    - OpenDrapery 8y ago
      I think when I was younger, I wanted to believe in it. But, yes, now that I'm older and I reflect, I don't think I've ever been part of one that wasn't fake. There are the owners/middle management/laborers. To trick the laborers into thinking that they are part of something is pretty brilliant though.
    - imnotadoctor999 8y ago
      In your view, is there a difference between micromanaging authorian culture compared to a consensus-driven culture where the employees all trust each other? I've seen several different companies from the insidr, and each one has had vastly different cultures. Usually it is an implementation of the CEO/upper management's views of what "corporate culture" is. There's still usually a facade, but that facade is not necessarily disingenuous.

sheeshkebab 8y ago

In thech companies, the only valid reason to be in the office is that often times upper management (those who pay bills/salaries) are restless crowd that can’t sit in one place staring at screen and have grand desire to run around the floor watching people “work”. The rest of your points are absolute bull shit that can all be done remotely.

fsloth 8y ago
"The rest of your points are absolute bull shit that can all be done remotely" I disagree mentoring can be as effective when done remotely. The channel width of face-to-face communication is higher than that of any other method. Furthermore, there are a lot of things that are communicated from senior to junior accidentally, for example, some simple efficient pattern of using the IDE, that would not get communicated in a remote setting. The skill transfer can happen of course any which way, from junior to senior, whatever - but serendipitous pairing is often the initial requirement for this skill transfer to happen.
- tluyben2 8y ago
  > The channel width of face-to-face communication is higher than that of any other method. Research to that effect? I know some people have that, I know I do not. So this absolute statement is already 1 datapoint (me) off. And I know others (who I mentor) who absorb mentoring far better via remote methods. When someone mentors me, I like to chew the information over, research it etc. This goes for most communication for work related matters; I absorb far less if it is told to me face to face than when I read it and have time to thoroughly understand it all. I agree somewhat with the rest but that again can be done remotely: we develop almost everything while in chat; this acidental transfer is even far better than face to face imho. In chat someone says something like ‘I refactor this to that by hitting ctrl-something’ ; all people see it, not only the accidental junior next to you but all of them. And later this can be searched by others while the verbal incidental comms is gone forever. I definitely see the need for face to face meetings, but far less than some people here do. And it would be good to have more research done into this matter: I simply do not see many programmers (and I managed 100s over my professional life) being productive in the setting you suggest. Looking and feeling busy yes (so for the bums on seats type of manager), but productive as in just getting stuff done, in my experience no. But that is anecdotal, like your view, so real research and numbers would be good.

emperorcezar 8y ago

This comment is the epitamy of the tech industry... Responding to actual data with antidote and personal opinion. Followed by the crowds upvoting.

Infernal 8y ago
Not to be picky, just an opportunity to inform - the word you're searching for is anecdote, rather than antidote. Also just while I'm here, normally I wouldn't point out spelling but, epitome.
- emperorcezar 8y ago
  Thanks. I would like to think I can blame auto-correct. v0v
alexandros 8y ago
At least it's a tech industry-only phenomenon right? In all the other industries, people are rational data analyzers with no bias whatsoever. If there's an epitomy of the tech industry, it's blaming ourselves for being uniquely bad at things we're actually better at than most.
sparrish 8y ago
I would argue that since this subject is about remote workers, the crowds upvoting is data. Think about it.
- emperorcezar 8y ago
  I feel that one is data collected about productivity, and the other is a community survey. That's another form of data, but I personally wouldn't hold it nearly as high of an indicator as other data.
ksk 8y ago
What does "actual data" mean? All data is actual. A study is not the termination of a logical argument. Its a model that someone thinks best explains the gathered data. Most studies don't go anywhere. People keep doing them so we get better and better and eventually stumble upon something useful.

TsomArp 8y ago

Exactly. While I love the flexibility of not having to go to the office once or twice a week, being alone all the time is very rough mentally.

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
Everyone is different. I work alone every day and have not had any difficulty mentally or otherwise. This is probably because I prefer quiet to begin with with and could never stand the office environment.

throwawaymath 8y ago

This comment seems like a great microcosm of remote work discussions on Hacker News. You didn't dismiss remote working in a thread about it, but you tried (maybe imperfectly) to suggest times when it would be a good idea to not work remotely. It is not being received well! In response most commenters are criticizing your point by focusing on whether or not it is technically possible to achieve any of those things while working remotely, which is not your point. One person has even accused you of responding to data with anecdotes and opinion, and another has called your comment BS. Yikes! Remote work kinda seems like a religious topic now. If you don't provide an airtight, empirical justification for why you're not in favor of remote work, you'll hear from people talking your ear off about how everything you suggested is absolutely possible in a remote setting. "But you can mentor someone remotely!", or "You can collaborate super effectively on a remote team if you just do ..." People are talking about "valid reasons" to be working in an office instead of working remotely, as though remote working needs to be the default consideration. There's a disconnect here. To conclude this pretentious meta-analysis of mine: I've worked remotely for four or five years now. I like it, it's cool. I can pick up groceries on a Monday when no one is at the store! But companies shouldn't have to defend why they don't support remote work. Universal telecommuting does not need to be the next step in our evolution as a society, and that's okay.

endorphone 8y ago
"focusing on whether or not it is technically possible to achieve any of those things while working remotely, which is not your point" But...it is their point. They are claiming that this laundry list of desirable things are all lost if you support remote work. If they are achievable with remote work the post is irrelevant. I've worked in offices where there was low morale, zero information sharing, little collaboration, and where the meetings were overwhelmingly just a giant waste of time (in the absence of productivity, meetings become a surrogate where you can point to the `accomplishment' of a meeting). I've worked with a remote team where we had fantastic morale and ridiculously good information sharing and cooperation/coordination. Vice versa. None of these things have to be limited to one choice.
ozim 8y ago
You know all those guys are extremely smart, easy going, are perfect writers, don't get upset when someone misunderstands them, have great personality that is easily conveyed through digital medium, and work with only as smart and awesome people as them.

sdedovic 8y ago

I agree but I found a mixed strategy worked best. Monday, Friday in the office. Wednesday, Thursday out. That way I can get a feel for the week on Monday and a retrospective on Friday. Plus Fridays is usually the "Culture Building" day (taking it easy, maybe having a beer in the afternoon, playing some board games). And Monday's are great to catch up with the team after the weekend, bring donuts or some snacks in the morning. The middle of the week is when I can just work and be productive, as a developer. Obviously this isn't a strict schedule. It's just definitely easier for me to pump out my own work at my pace, i.e. "Maker's Schedule". And there is absolutely value in being in the office with the team as you stated above.

zpr 8y ago
What about Tuesday?
loco5niner 8y ago
> Monday, Friday in the office. Wednesday, Thursday out. That sounds great. No more Tuesdays!
- wool_gather 8y ago
  Never could get the hang of Tuesdays.

zimbatm 8y ago

This logic doesn't even hold the basic scrutiny. 0. The group productivity argument is completely unsubstantiated. 1. Trust in employees is fundamental, why even go there. 2. There are remote-first companies with great culture. 3. Ad-hoc training works great over Hangouts, I do it all the time. 4. Most meetings are not urgent. For sysops consider having a team on-call. Again it works great over Hangouts. Etc...

robodale 8y ago
Agree totally.

swat535 8y ago

Ah yes.. we should sacrifice productivity for the sake of "vibrant company culture", whatever that means. I have been working remotely in a large company and allow me to refute your points. > - To more effectively add to the culture of the company. If your culture is already remote, or shifting towards it, then it's a non issue. > - To take part in ad hoc training opportunities, either to teach someone who needs help, or to learn something from someone when an obstacle is encountered. This works just as well remotely. In fact I would argue it's even more efficient, one can take advantage of super quiet places in a private video chat. > - To be able to attend in-person meetings or stand-ups when urgent things come up - without the awkwardness and delays of conferencing in multiple people. In person meetings, stand ups, team sync meetings are 90% waste of time. Short meetings can be performed quickly in a video call. Notifying team members of something urgent is also very easy. > - To provide mentorship to junior staff. Again, the point is passing along information, whether it's done in person or online makes little difference. In fact if it's done online, I would argue it's more efficient because is a digital trail that one can trace back > - To collaborate more effectively. If your team members fail to collaborate remotely, they will fail to do so in person. Remote has nothing to do with it. > - To show clients/prospective clients, partners and recruits, a vibrant and energetic team and working environment that is worth investing in/joining. Partners and clients don't care how "vibrant" your team is.They care about how good your product is. This point makes no sense > - To build morale and a sense of teamwork and camaraderie. This is hands on SV startup mentally. In person office drinking parties does not create morale. Morale is created by hard work, strong vision and leadership. All of which can be accomplished remotely. The point I'm trying to get across is this: It all depends on the organizational structure. If it's correctly in place, it works very well. As long as there is a clear communication hub between all members, a company can succeed remotely. [EDIT] spelling

Aaargh20318 8y ago
> Again, the point is passing along information, whether it's done in person or online makes little difference. But it makes a huge difference for some people like me. Information passed verbally just doesn't stick for me. For some reason it's not properly recorded in my memory and if you ask me about if half an hour later I would have forgotten 80% of what I was told. Now give it to me in writing, and I'd probably remember it until the end of days.

greedo 8y ago

One of the reasons companies like to have employees under one roof is to instill a "gung-ho" attitude. When employees know each other from face to face interactions, there are stronger bonds. These bonds help with employee retention. When employees are remote, they are in essence contractors, with less emotional commitment to a company. When employees aren't as invested (other than financially), retention can be harder.

Clubber 8y ago
That works both ways. If there is someone you just don't like at work, having to sit next to them every day really crushes morale. >When employees are remote, they are in essence contractors, with less emotional commitment to a company. When employees aren't as invested (other than financially), retention can be harder. Being able to remote will keep me at a soul sucking company a lot longer than having to drive through rush hour twice a day. Believe this: if you hire someone as a remote programmer, you will get better access to better candidates for less money. Consider it a competitive advantage.
- greedo 8y ago
  True, but to a company, that's not as important as social cohesion. That's how companies get employees to overwork, to take work home, etc. Social cohesion is the glue that binds employees to their job, instead of the employee realizing it's a job. It's no different than getting free massages, or soda and snacks.

radoslawc 8y ago

This might look like it's emotionally loaded response, but I'm just giving you tough love here: > - To more effectively add to the culture of the company. This is genuine question, what does this even mean? > - To take part in ad hoc training opportunities, either to teach someone who needs help, or to learn something from someone when an obstacle is encountered. This all can be done online and it's even better, if you have to focus on task and there are people constantly bothering you , or vice versa you interrupt someone, this does nothing but lowers productivity > - To be able to attend in-person meetings or stand-ups when urgent things come up - without the awkwardness and delays of conferencing in multiple people. In 15 years of work I've never had this issue, it's more managers' problem I guess, proving that they do something by visually showing that they do something - like organising meetings about nothing. And how it's less awkward to chase people around building than just set up meeting adding it to calendar? > - To provide mentorship to junior staff. There's this thing called documentation ;) > - To collaborate more effectively. We're not raising barn walls, there's a ton of tools to support collaboration > - To show clients/prospective clients, partners and recruits, a vibrant and energetic team and working environment that is worth investing in/joining. At assembly line in car factory, yes. Although this seems to be frequent theme in this industry: dress up and act busy because some big old guys are comming, we have to make good impression. Then there's this crowd of people pacing around asking random questions (imagine what kind, as for most of them 'the internet' is a blue E letter on desktop). Again, that's not productive working. > - To build morale and a sense of teamwork and camaraderie. Making great product that you can be proud of does all of this , or if you really cannot live without 'making great team' just set up some after hours go out or idk paintball or something

jadavies 8y ago
>> - To provide mentorship to junior staff. > There's this thing called documentation ;) Mentoring is somewhat more than telling someone to RTFM. A smart engineer who's willing to teach less experienced team members is extremely valuable. The people who are really good at it never see it as a bother, just part of the job. My experience is that it's not as effective with remote teams.

loco5niner 8y ago

> At the same time, measures need to be taken in the office working environment to ensure that individuals can be productive, which means providing quiet working spaces, enforcing do-not-disturb rules, etc. For me, this is the key point. We do NOT have a quiet working space. We are disturbed constantly. :-(

mto 8y ago

Most gamers will object to the last paragraph. There are really a lot of strong friendships without ever meeting in person. Back then eben without ever hearing each other's voice. I've been working for a startup at the other end of the world for 2 years now and rejected lots of much better (remote) offers because I like the team... Which I've never met in person. But I grew up in that ICQ/IRC/Forums culture and as a teenie stayed home alone for weeks while my parents were on vacation, didn't bother me. So certainly a personality thing. Now with wife and kids, my remote working times are the only lone times I have,so I love it.