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>3.) the lisp ecosystem is fractured into too many lisps like SBCL, Clojure, Racket, Allegro, Franz, Picolisp, ABCL, Shen...etc, so some confusion amongst those

>3.) the lisp ecosystem is fractured into too many lisps like SBCL, Clojure, Racket, Allegro, Franz, Picolisp, ABCL, Shen...etc, so some confusion amongst those that are new You are mixing things into that list. Common Lisp, Racket, Clojure, and Shen are different languages, serving different purposes, etc. "Franz", "Allegro", "ABCL", "SBCL" are implementations of Common Lisp, exactly the same language. ALGOL-family languages are also "fractured" into Algol-68, Pascal, Go, Ada and others, that's not a problem, since they are really different languages that give different benefits/etc. >"4.) poor windows support for SBCL" SBCL works just fine on windows. But if you don't like, just use CCL (Clozure CL). I'm currently on a Lisp project which runs equally great in SBCL and CCL. CCL is professional quality software. >6.) multi-core seems to only be in Clojure False. There are many libraries to do all sort of concurrency and multiprocessing on Common Lisp. >8.) learning resources are very hit or miss At least for Common Lisp, there are books that are arguably some of the best books on programming ever written, like "Practical Common Lisp", or PAIP. For Scheme, "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" is already a high-rated classic. >notice how many people equate lisp with personal projects? Except when it's used by Rigetti for quantum computing, or Grammarly for the core server of their core business.

FractalLP 8y ago
You quoted two companies using Lisp when there are millions of Java devs. That's like a boxer with a record of 1-500. I love Lisp, but c'mon...I guarantee it has far more hobby users than professional users. ABCL, FRANZ, ALLEGRO, SBCL, CLISP, GNU CL, Clozure might all be common lisp, but they are different implementations with different tools that will confuse a new person and several cost money. Practical Common Lisp isn't very good in my opinion, that was the example i actually used. SICP is great for a mind-opening experience, but not super useful on how to write modern software and is why the creators dropped it at MIT. For multi-core I'd rather it be core than a library, but perhaps that is petty of me. I think Lisp is great, but why it isn't popular shouldn't be a mystery to anyone.
- flavio81 8y ago
  >You quoted two companies using Lisp when there are millions of Java devs. So what? I was a Java dev myself. What does this mean? There are even more millions of Javascript users. What does this mean, really? >ABCL, FRANZ, ALLEGRO, SBCL, CLISP, GNU CL, Clozure might all be common lisp, but they are different implementations with different tools that will confuse a new person and several cost money. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. They all implement ANSI Common Lisp. Right now i'm doing a project (not personal, it is for a company) and it runs on SBCL and CCL without any change. It would probably also run on ABCL straight away. It uses software transactional memory, bridges to C libraries and other stuff that isn't on the ANSI standard, yet it can also be written, very easily, in a portable way. So, what you write is FUD. >and several cost money. More FUD. From your list, only Allegro CL (= Franz) costs money. >Practical Common Lisp isn't very good in my opinion, that was the example i actually used. SICP is great for a mind-opening experience, but not super useful on how to write modern software and is why the creators dropped it at MIT. SICP is not for writing modern software, is for understanding fundamentals. If you develop without having a solid grasp of the fundamentals, you become a "CODE MONKEY" (caps intentional), and this is what MIT is in danger of producing now (i'm not the only one to criticize the MIT for dropping SICP...)
  - FractalLP 8y ago
    My point is simply that niche languages are harder to hire for and find a job in. Most people aren't okay with that. There is a feedback loop here as less people use it and less libraries are written. That doesn't mean the language is inferior to Java in any way, but a new developer has to stay relevant by learning languages and frameworks that people use in-house. This is a major reason it isn't popular. I have 300 people in my IT department. They've all heard of Java & C#, but I've never run into anyone who has even heard of Lisp (maybe that is marketing).
    - PuercoPop 8y ago
      You don't have to hire for Lisp, or any language for that matter. Picking up a language is way easier than fundamental skills (statistics for AI for example). IIRC Dan Weinreb of ITA fame said they gave their new hires a copy Practical Common Lisp and two weeks. You know, the book that you dissed earlier in the thread w/o an argument. > less libraries are written. Given that Sturgeon was an optimist[0], that is hardly a problem. The only reason why most OSS libraries are using is because people don't do the due diligence of vetting their dependencies. There are more than enough libraries of adequate quality for common tasks. [0]: “And folks, let’s be honest. Sturgeon was an optimist. Way more than 90% of code is crap.” – Al viro

FractalLP 8y ago

You quoted two companies using Lisp when there are millions of Java devs. That's like a boxer with a record of 1-500. I love Lisp, but c'mon...I guarantee it has far more hobby users than professional users. ABCL, FRANZ, ALLEGRO, SBCL, CLISP, GNU CL, Clozure might all be common lisp, but they are different implementations with different tools that will confuse a new person and several cost money. Practical Common Lisp isn't very good in my opinion, that was the example i actually used. SICP is great for a mind-opening experience, but not super useful on how to write modern software and is why the creators dropped it at MIT. For multi-core I'd rather it be core than a library, but perhaps that is petty of me. I think Lisp is great, but why it isn't popular shouldn't be a mystery to anyone.

flavio81 8y ago
>You quoted two companies using Lisp when there are millions of Java devs. So what? I was a Java dev myself. What does this mean? There are even more millions of Javascript users. What does this mean, really? >ABCL, FRANZ, ALLEGRO, SBCL, CLISP, GNU CL, Clozure might all be common lisp, but they are different implementations with different tools that will confuse a new person and several cost money. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. They all implement ANSI Common Lisp. Right now i'm doing a project (not personal, it is for a company) and it runs on SBCL and CCL without any change. It would probably also run on ABCL straight away. It uses software transactional memory, bridges to C libraries and other stuff that isn't on the ANSI standard, yet it can also be written, very easily, in a portable way. So, what you write is FUD. >and several cost money. More FUD. From your list, only Allegro CL (= Franz) costs money. >Practical Common Lisp isn't very good in my opinion, that was the example i actually used. SICP is great for a mind-opening experience, but not super useful on how to write modern software and is why the creators dropped it at MIT. SICP is not for writing modern software, is for understanding fundamentals. If you develop without having a solid grasp of the fundamentals, you become a "CODE MONKEY" (caps intentional), and this is what MIT is in danger of producing now (i'm not the only one to criticize the MIT for dropping SICP...)
- FractalLP 8y ago
  My point is simply that niche languages are harder to hire for and find a job in. Most people aren't okay with that. There is a feedback loop here as less people use it and less libraries are written. That doesn't mean the language is inferior to Java in any way, but a new developer has to stay relevant by learning languages and frameworks that people use in-house. This is a major reason it isn't popular. I have 300 people in my IT department. They've all heard of Java & C#, but I've never run into anyone who has even heard of Lisp (maybe that is marketing).
  - PuercoPop 8y ago
    You don't have to hire for Lisp, or any language for that matter. Picking up a language is way easier than fundamental skills (statistics for AI for example). IIRC Dan Weinreb of ITA fame said they gave their new hires a copy Practical Common Lisp and two weeks. You know, the book that you dissed earlier in the thread w/o an argument. > less libraries are written. Given that Sturgeon was an optimist[0], that is hardly a problem. The only reason why most OSS libraries are using is because people don't do the due diligence of vetting their dependencies. There are more than enough libraries of adequate quality for common tasks. [0]: “And folks, let’s be honest. Sturgeon was an optimist. Way more than 90% of code is crap.” – Al viro