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This seems like a publicity stunt. It sounds like a CS degree where the electives are predetermined. Why couldn't they just make this a concentration when it's

This seems like a publicity stunt. It sounds like a CS degree where the electives are predetermined. Why couldn't they just make this a concentration when it's so intimately intertwined with CS. The extra overhead graduates will have to deal with doesn't seem worth it. "AI majors will receive the same solid grounding in computer science and math courses as other computer science students. In addition, they will have additional course work in AI-related subjects such as statistics and probability, computational modeling, machine learning, and symbolic computation." They even say "other computer science students".

electricslpnsld 8y ago
> It sounds like a CS degree where the electives are predetermined This is offered through CMU's school of computer science (SCS), so that is exactly what this is. CMU loves creating new sub-departments with SCS, for some reason, there are already 7 or 8.
- ethbro 8y ago
  New faculty titles!
dgacmu 8y ago
It's not just predetermined electives - it removes several of the CS upper-division breadth requirements to allow more depth in AI/ML/stats. (I posted a comparison below, so won't repeat it here.) It's a pretty decent change to serve the students who really want to push more on ML. The key thing to look at is what the CS major requires that the AI major doesn't -- in 8 semesters, you can only fit in so many classes.
- learc83 8y ago
  I looked at your description, and compared the requirements myself. I'm even more convinced this is for publicity (or other political reasons). There's nothing there that couldn't have been done by very slightly altering the CS requirements. If CMU had done that instead, students would have the ability to take more AI classes, but they wouldn't be at a disadvantage if they decide (or need) to work in another field of CS.
  - fixermark 8y ago
    CMU doesn't generally craft their degrees for industry-marketability; even the CS degree operates under somewhat of an assumption that they're training you to be a CS grad student or professor, not a software engineer. You can find your way out of that program without ever having touched C++, for example. I think you're greatly underestimating how much different the CS curriculum would become if they tore out functional programming above 15-150, OS, and Networking. Consider the flipside: if they bent the CS degree instead of introducing a new AI degree, could higher-learning institutions continue to trust that a CMU CS undergrad had a solid foundation in functional programming, discrete mathematics, and systems theory?
    - learc83 8y ago
      >CMU doesn't generally craft their degrees for industry-marketability; I don't think a CS degree should be a trade program, but avoiding actively harming students job prospects by adding a few more electives isn't quite the same things as crafting their degrees for industry-marketability. >they tore out functional programming above 15-150 I'm looking at the requirements for the BS in CS right now. I don't see any function programming requirements above 15-150. >OS, and Networking It looks like neither is required right now. Here's the relevant section. Choose 1 15-410: Operating System Design and Implementation 15-411: Compiler Design 15-418: Parallel Computer Architecture and Programming 15-440: Distributed Systems 15-441: Computer Networks Others as designated by the CS Undergraduate Program > if they bent the CS degree instead of introducing a new AI degree, could higher-learning institutions continue to trust that a CMU CS undergrad had a solid foundation in functional programming, discrete mathematics, and systems theory? Looks like the functional programming, and discrete math requirements are the same. Systems is an overloaded word, so I'm going to assume you mean software systems, since that requirement is what is removed. The systems requirement is already just chose one from above list. I don't think taking 1 network class means you have a solid foundation of systems theory.
      - fixermark 8y ago
        I stand corrected: since I took the curriculum, functional programming requirements seem to have been substituted with an option to do higher-level systems-engineering electives (such as 15-414). And the systems elective has been expanded to include parallel and distributed systems. The key difference on the deep-theory side is that CS and AI appear to swap out deep-diving into discrete math for deep-diving into statistics and statistical modeling. I'd consider those different enough to warrant separate degree tracks, personally. (Your opinion of networking is noted but I do not share it, being somewhat familiar with what that course asks of students. It's every bit as preparatory as its sibling 15-410 class ;) ).
- btown 8y ago
  Parent's post for convenience: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17041413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17041413
epicureanideal 8y ago
Well, that's basically what Computer Science degrees started out as, right? An Electrical Engineering degree with a bunch of software related electives? Even now, at UC Berkeley for example, "EE/CS" majors can choose a set of courses that end up almost exactly matching what the "CS" majors take, with not necessarily more EE. It's really just a narrowing of the electives. There are enough AI related courses available now at many schools that it seems useful to separate "more general Computer Science" from "a focus on Artificial Intelligence", and similarly I think there's room for a separate major in "Software Engineering" as opposed to theoretical computer science.
- solarkraft 8y ago
  I would love the people who down voted to reveal why.
- learc83 8y ago
  Many CS programs came out of Math departments (that was the case in my program). To me, it's more a difference in degree than kind. To be effective with AI you basically need the equivalent of a CS degree anyway. The same isn't true with EE/CS.
- mlazos 8y ago
  For me this just looks equivalent to adding a new major for every sub field of electrical engineering. Signal processing, digital circuits, analog circuits ... truth is a CS major could go take the same classes and a computer engineering student could also.
  - epicureanideal 8y ago
    I think there's just a (subjective) point where a field is different enough that it's worth distinguishing from the rest. I could see Signal Processing being a different major than Electrical Engineering, and digital circuits is basically Computer Engineering.
leowoo91 8y ago
It might not be the perfect curriculum yet, but not every CS course should be necessary to be good at ML/AI (compared to no need of knowing electrical engineering or physics while studying CS).
3pt14159 8y ago
It's always this way when new fields start. Give it time. AI leans harder on areas of knowledge that traditional CS treats as periphery like philosophy and linguistics. In a couple decades the field could be as separate from CS as EE is.
- vkjv 8y ago
  I agree, but I think this also supports the parent argument. CS and EE are not very different at the undergraduate level.
  - smaddox 8y ago
    They certainly are at UT Austin! But UT Austin has a separate Computer Engineering degree that's very similar to EE.
  - gowld 8y ago
    That's right, and that's harmful to people who want to "higher up the stack" than EE. This new major helps address that problem.
  - 3pt14159 8y ago
    They were at Waterloo, my alma matter. CS was far more mathematical and EE had a much broader basis in physics. Comp Eng was the middle ground with overlap on both.
gaius 8y ago
It sounds like a CS degree where the electives are predetermined. If history is anything to go by they will graduate right into an AI Winter.
- mjfl 8y ago
  you mean that blind optimization of a black box might run into problems that can't be solved by "adding more layers"? I would never have guessed.
fixermark 8y ago
It shifts the core of the curriculum much deeper into the statistical mathematics and away from the "how the bare metal works" and forest-of-languages pieces of the CS undergrad degree. In particular, you can't generally get the CS undergrad degree without cap-stoning your experience with either a networking or operating systems course; this new degree omits both of those from the curriculum (but adds machine learning, modern regression, and a cap-stone of either natural language processing or computer vision).
- learc83 8y ago
  It's a few classes. There is no reason they couldn't have just changed the requirement to OS, Networking, NLP, or computer vision. And made the ML and modern regression classes prerequisites for the NLP and computer vision classes. A few very minor tweaks to the CS requirements is all it would take. But you wouldn't get the fanfare of launching a new major. The advantage for students is that if they decide to pursue some other CS discipline, they don't have to explain their weird degree.
  - fixermark 8y ago
    (responded to similar thought on a different thread)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
asdsa5325 8y ago
Did you not bother looking at the curriculum before making a comment about the curriculum? https://www.cs.cmu.edu/bs-in-artificial-intelligence/curriculum https://www.cs.cmu.edu/bs-in-artificial-intelligence/curricu...
- learc83 8y ago
  I looked over the curriculum pretty thoroughly. Look through some of the other comments in this thread to see a more detailed look at the differences. If you look over the curriculum and compare it the BS CS curriculum you'll notice there's nothing that couldn't have been done as a concentration.
physguy1123 8y ago
> It sounds like a CS degree where the electives are predetermined. Why couldn't they just make this a concentration when it's so intimately intertwined with CS Unless they really mean "CS-degree with surface level knowledge of stats" this should really be an offshoot of the math/applied math department, not CS

electricslpnsld 8y ago

> It sounds like a CS degree where the electives are predetermined This is offered through CMU's school of computer science (SCS), so that is exactly what this is. CMU loves creating new sub-departments with SCS, for some reason, there are already 7 or 8.

ethbro 8y ago
New faculty titles!

dgacmu 8y ago

It's not just predetermined electives - it removes several of the CS upper-division breadth requirements to allow more depth in AI/ML/stats. (I posted a comparison below, so won't repeat it here.) It's a pretty decent change to serve the students who really want to push more on ML. The key thing to look at is what the CS major requires that the AI major doesn't -- in 8 semesters, you can only fit in so many classes.

learc83 8y ago
I looked at your description, and compared the requirements myself. I'm even more convinced this is for publicity (or other political reasons). There's nothing there that couldn't have been done by very slightly altering the CS requirements. If CMU had done that instead, students would have the ability to take more AI classes, but they wouldn't be at a disadvantage if they decide (or need) to work in another field of CS.
- fixermark 8y ago
  CMU doesn't generally craft their degrees for industry-marketability; even the CS degree operates under somewhat of an assumption that they're training you to be a CS grad student or professor, not a software engineer. You can find your way out of that program without ever having touched C++, for example. I think you're greatly underestimating how much different the CS curriculum would become if they tore out functional programming above 15-150, OS, and Networking. Consider the flipside: if they bent the CS degree instead of introducing a new AI degree, could higher-learning institutions continue to trust that a CMU CS undergrad had a solid foundation in functional programming, discrete mathematics, and systems theory?
  - learc83 8y ago
    >CMU doesn't generally craft their degrees for industry-marketability; I don't think a CS degree should be a trade program, but avoiding actively harming students job prospects by adding a few more electives isn't quite the same things as crafting their degrees for industry-marketability. >they tore out functional programming above 15-150 I'm looking at the requirements for the BS in CS right now. I don't see any function programming requirements above 15-150. >OS, and Networking It looks like neither is required right now. Here's the relevant section. Choose 1 15-410: Operating System Design and Implementation 15-411: Compiler Design 15-418: Parallel Computer Architecture and Programming 15-440: Distributed Systems 15-441: Computer Networks Others as designated by the CS Undergraduate Program > if they bent the CS degree instead of introducing a new AI degree, could higher-learning institutions continue to trust that a CMU CS undergrad had a solid foundation in functional programming, discrete mathematics, and systems theory? Looks like the functional programming, and discrete math requirements are the same. Systems is an overloaded word, so I'm going to assume you mean software systems, since that requirement is what is removed. The systems requirement is already just chose one from above list. I don't think taking 1 network class means you have a solid foundation of systems theory.
    - fixermark 8y ago
      I stand corrected: since I took the curriculum, functional programming requirements seem to have been substituted with an option to do higher-level systems-engineering electives (such as 15-414). And the systems elective has been expanded to include parallel and distributed systems. The key difference on the deep-theory side is that CS and AI appear to swap out deep-diving into discrete math for deep-diving into statistics and statistical modeling. I'd consider those different enough to warrant separate degree tracks, personally. (Your opinion of networking is noted but I do not share it, being somewhat familiar with what that course asks of students. It's every bit as preparatory as its sibling 15-410 class ;) ).
btown 8y ago
Parent's post for convenience: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17041413 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17041413

epicureanideal 8y ago

Well, that's basically what Computer Science degrees started out as, right? An Electrical Engineering degree with a bunch of software related electives? Even now, at UC Berkeley for example, "EE/CS" majors can choose a set of courses that end up almost exactly matching what the "CS" majors take, with not necessarily more EE. It's really just a narrowing of the electives. There are enough AI related courses available now at many schools that it seems useful to separate "more general Computer Science" from "a focus on Artificial Intelligence", and similarly I think there's room for a separate major in "Software Engineering" as opposed to theoretical computer science.

solarkraft 8y ago
I would love the people who down voted to reveal why.
learc83 8y ago
Many CS programs came out of Math departments (that was the case in my program). To me, it's more a difference in degree than kind. To be effective with AI you basically need the equivalent of a CS degree anyway. The same isn't true with EE/CS.
mlazos 8y ago
For me this just looks equivalent to adding a new major for every sub field of electrical engineering. Signal processing, digital circuits, analog circuits ... truth is a CS major could go take the same classes and a computer engineering student could also.
- epicureanideal 8y ago
  I think there's just a (subjective) point where a field is different enough that it's worth distinguishing from the rest. I could see Signal Processing being a different major than Electrical Engineering, and digital circuits is basically Computer Engineering.

leowoo91 8y ago

It might not be the perfect curriculum yet, but not every CS course should be necessary to be good at ML/AI (compared to no need of knowing electrical engineering or physics while studying CS).

3pt14159 8y ago

It's always this way when new fields start. Give it time. AI leans harder on areas of knowledge that traditional CS treats as periphery like philosophy and linguistics. In a couple decades the field could be as separate from CS as EE is.

vkjv 8y ago
I agree, but I think this also supports the parent argument. CS and EE are not very different at the undergraduate level.
- smaddox 8y ago
  They certainly are at UT Austin! But UT Austin has a separate Computer Engineering degree that's very similar to EE.
- gowld 8y ago
  That's right, and that's harmful to people who want to "higher up the stack" than EE. This new major helps address that problem.
- 3pt14159 8y ago
  They were at Waterloo, my alma matter. CS was far more mathematical and EE had a much broader basis in physics. Comp Eng was the middle ground with overlap on both.

gaius 8y ago

It sounds like a CS degree where the electives are predetermined. If history is anything to go by they will graduate right into an AI Winter.

mjfl 8y ago
you mean that blind optimization of a black box might run into problems that can't be solved by "adding more layers"? I would never have guessed.

fixermark 8y ago

It shifts the core of the curriculum much deeper into the statistical mathematics and away from the "how the bare metal works" and forest-of-languages pieces of the CS undergrad degree. In particular, you can't generally get the CS undergrad degree without cap-stoning your experience with either a networking or operating systems course; this new degree omits both of those from the curriculum (but adds machine learning, modern regression, and a cap-stone of either natural language processing or computer vision).

learc83 8y ago
It's a few classes. There is no reason they couldn't have just changed the requirement to OS, Networking, NLP, or computer vision. And made the ML and modern regression classes prerequisites for the NLP and computer vision classes. A few very minor tweaks to the CS requirements is all it would take. But you wouldn't get the fanfare of launching a new major. The advantage for students is that if they decide to pursue some other CS discipline, they don't have to explain their weird degree.
- fixermark 8y ago
  (responded to similar thought on a different thread)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

asdsa5325 8y ago

Did you not bother looking at the curriculum before making a comment about the curriculum? https://www.cs.cmu.edu/bs-in-artificial-intelligence/curriculum https://www.cs.cmu.edu/bs-in-artificial-intelligence/curricu...

learc83 8y ago
I looked over the curriculum pretty thoroughly. Look through some of the other comments in this thread to see a more detailed look at the differences. If you look over the curriculum and compare it the BS CS curriculum you'll notice there's nothing that couldn't have been done as a concentration.

physguy1123 8y ago

> It sounds like a CS degree where the electives are predetermined. Why couldn't they just make this a concentration when it's so intimately intertwined with CS Unless they really mean "CS-degree with surface level knowledge of stats" this should really be an offshoot of the math/applied math department, not CS