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> Li said that initially he felt he couldn’t be too be picky: he had majored in English, not in one of the sought-after science or technology fields, and he had

> Li said that initially he felt he couldn’t be too be picky: he had majored in English, not in one of the sought-after science or technology fields, and he had attended a low-ranked university. Many of his friends are unemployed. To me, this was the most interesting part of the article. It all sounds so familiar.

commandlinefan 8y ago
> sought-after science or technology fields Hell, I did major in one of the sought-after science or technology fields, and unpaid overtime is an infuriating, unavoidable fact of my life.
- amenod 8y ago
  It is really not. It depends on the field, country and other factors, but it is very much avoidable. I know, I don't do overtime unless it's by my choice. And it is mostly about choosing an employer (if you have that privilege) with the appropriate company culture. What good is money if you can't spend it?
- jschwartzi 8y ago
  I left my last company because of the miserable work culture. It was a life-changing product that a lot of people were excited about but I could barely bring myself to come into work every day. I felt so exploited by the employer that I gave notice before I had another job lined up. They really wanted me to stay so they offered me an extra month's salary if I would stay on for 2 more months, but I said no.
fhood 8y ago
I was kind of surprised by this. I would have though that speaking decent English would be a fairly valuable skill for Chinese companies that operate outside of China.
- vkou 8y ago
  An understanding of history and ethics and psychology is also a valuable skill, but if that's your only skill, you'll be making lattes.
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    It's perfectly possible as a Chinese person in China to enjoy a solid middle-class lifestyle based only on your ability to speak English.
    - vkou 8y ago
      It seems that is no longer the case.
      - AmericanChopper 8y ago
        It never really was the case. It's pretty much just a meme that's often repeated about China, and to some extent the rest of Asia. If you don't have marketable skills, then learning a second language simply makes you unmarketable in two languages.
    - jpatokal 8y ago
      Problem is, majoring in English doesn't necessarily mean they actually have the ability to really speak English.
    - barry-cotter 8y ago
      If you can actually speak English to a level high enough to communicate effectively with monoglot English speakers this is absolutely true. Unfortunately lots of degree programmes that aim for that level of fluency do not achieve it. I’ve worked in Shanghai for the past six years. This is definitely one of the cities with the highest fluency in English in China. Most educated professionals have some basic competency in reading English. That’s really the most you can assume.
      - 8y ago
samlevine 8y ago
New Chinese (non-STEM) grads have it worse, amazingly enough. The central government demanded more graduates at any cost, threw money at the problem and they ended up with corruption, very expensive facilities and many times more graduates with questionable skills in subjects that mostly aren't yet in demand.
- rb808 8y ago
  This all sounds so familiar too. :) Is a global problem.
  - tostitos1979 8y ago
    Why though? I don't think globalization is the culprit.
    - briandear 8y ago
      Central planning is the culprit. The free market works when it is allowed to work.
      - prolikewhoa 8y ago
        The free market is what allows this to happen in the first place. The free market's goal is to abuse workers and push them to just near their breaking point for profits.
      - Can_Not 8y ago
        That's weird, I got the opposite conclusion. I would have thought this happened because China choose to drift back to free markets instead of improving their central planning. The government demanded a larger market for graduations, and the colleges were free to increase their prices. Is that not econ 101 supply and demand? Now the graduates are on the market and whoever wants to hire can pay at a lower market price, and they're even free to not hire if there's extra candidates. Under a good central planning, anyone who really wants a job could be planned a state sponsered job. It doesn't have to be a fake office job or a bureaucratic layer job like in large US corporations, there's actually plenty of science and engineering research that could be worked on, and China has the man power to challenge research in the US. Interestingly enough, a lot of science and research in the US is state sponsered. If it weren't, I wonder if that talent would be employed, working at Starbucks, or building a new Electron MVP to 'disrupt' one stagnant market to replace it with even more stagnant, monthly rental SaaS.
thaumasiotes 8y ago
A credential in "English" isn't the exemplar of self-indulgence that it would be in the US, where everybody already knows English and "English" as a school subject just means literature. Knowing English in China has real, immediate financial benefits. For any given job (programmer / secretary / waitress / anything), a role that involves having to communicate with English speakers is more prestigious and offers higher pay.
- auvi 8y ago
  I agree. Jack Ma's biggest advantage was his ability to communicate in English, which opened may doors for him.
- kccqzy 8y ago
  Every college student already knows English. It's a required subject in high schools. Anecdotally I do know of a Chinese student majoring in English in college telling me the best part of her college life is reading Dickens all day.
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    It is true that English is a required subject in Chinese high schools. This no more means that all Chinese college students can speak English than US high school foreign language requirements mean that American college students can all speak Spanish.
    - DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
      You’re right about most of that, and if you look at Japan it’s a similar situation with a similar outcome. It is however also not true that Americans have to take Spanish, they could just as easily take Latin.
      - zdragnar 8y ago
        That depends heavily on where you go. My high school only offered German and Spanish. I think a few years after I graduated they added either Japanese or Chinese, though that's because our school district was growing significantly year over year. If you're not in a large school district / large city, your options as a student in a public school (and most private ones) are quite limited indeed.

commandlinefan 8y ago

> sought-after science or technology fields Hell, I did major in one of the sought-after science or technology fields, and unpaid overtime is an infuriating, unavoidable fact of my life.

amenod 8y ago
It is really not. It depends on the field, country and other factors, but it is very much avoidable. I know, I don't do overtime unless it's by my choice. And it is mostly about choosing an employer (if you have that privilege) with the appropriate company culture. What good is money if you can't spend it?
jschwartzi 8y ago
I left my last company because of the miserable work culture. It was a life-changing product that a lot of people were excited about but I could barely bring myself to come into work every day. I felt so exploited by the employer that I gave notice before I had another job lined up. They really wanted me to stay so they offered me an extra month's salary if I would stay on for 2 more months, but I said no.

fhood 8y ago

I was kind of surprised by this. I would have though that speaking decent English would be a fairly valuable skill for Chinese companies that operate outside of China.

vkou 8y ago
An understanding of history and ethics and psychology is also a valuable skill, but if that's your only skill, you'll be making lattes.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  It's perfectly possible as a Chinese person in China to enjoy a solid middle-class lifestyle based only on your ability to speak English.
  - vkou 8y ago
    It seems that is no longer the case.
    - AmericanChopper 8y ago
      It never really was the case. It's pretty much just a meme that's often repeated about China, and to some extent the rest of Asia. If you don't have marketable skills, then learning a second language simply makes you unmarketable in two languages.
  - jpatokal 8y ago
    Problem is, majoring in English doesn't necessarily mean they actually have the ability to really speak English.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    If you can actually speak English to a level high enough to communicate effectively with monoglot English speakers this is absolutely true. Unfortunately lots of degree programmes that aim for that level of fluency do not achieve it. I’ve worked in Shanghai for the past six years. This is definitely one of the cities with the highest fluency in English in China. Most educated professionals have some basic competency in reading English. That’s really the most you can assume.
    - 8y ago

samlevine 8y ago

New Chinese (non-STEM) grads have it worse, amazingly enough. The central government demanded more graduates at any cost, threw money at the problem and they ended up with corruption, very expensive facilities and many times more graduates with questionable skills in subjects that mostly aren't yet in demand.

rb808 8y ago
This all sounds so familiar too. :) Is a global problem.
- tostitos1979 8y ago
  Why though? I don't think globalization is the culprit.
  - briandear 8y ago
    Central planning is the culprit. The free market works when it is allowed to work.
    - prolikewhoa 8y ago
      The free market is what allows this to happen in the first place. The free market's goal is to abuse workers and push them to just near their breaking point for profits.
    - Can_Not 8y ago
      That's weird, I got the opposite conclusion. I would have thought this happened because China choose to drift back to free markets instead of improving their central planning. The government demanded a larger market for graduations, and the colleges were free to increase their prices. Is that not econ 101 supply and demand? Now the graduates are on the market and whoever wants to hire can pay at a lower market price, and they're even free to not hire if there's extra candidates. Under a good central planning, anyone who really wants a job could be planned a state sponsered job. It doesn't have to be a fake office job or a bureaucratic layer job like in large US corporations, there's actually plenty of science and engineering research that could be worked on, and China has the man power to challenge research in the US. Interestingly enough, a lot of science and research in the US is state sponsered. If it weren't, I wonder if that talent would be employed, working at Starbucks, or building a new Electron MVP to 'disrupt' one stagnant market to replace it with even more stagnant, monthly rental SaaS.

thaumasiotes 8y ago

A credential in "English" isn't the exemplar of self-indulgence that it would be in the US, where everybody already knows English and "English" as a school subject just means literature. Knowing English in China has real, immediate financial benefits. For any given job (programmer / secretary / waitress / anything), a role that involves having to communicate with English speakers is more prestigious and offers higher pay.

auvi 8y ago
I agree. Jack Ma's biggest advantage was his ability to communicate in English, which opened may doors for him.
kccqzy 8y ago
Every college student already knows English. It's a required subject in high schools. Anecdotally I do know of a Chinese student majoring in English in college telling me the best part of her college life is reading Dickens all day.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  It is true that English is a required subject in Chinese high schools. This no more means that all Chinese college students can speak English than US high school foreign language requirements mean that American college students can all speak Spanish.
  - DmenshunlAnlsis 8y ago
    You’re right about most of that, and if you look at Japan it’s a similar situation with a similar outcome. It is however also not true that Americans have to take Spanish, they could just as easily take Latin.
    - zdragnar 8y ago
      That depends heavily on where you go. My high school only offered German and Spanish. I think a few years after I graduated they added either Japanese or Chinese, though that's because our school district was growing significantly year over year. If you're not in a large school district / large city, your options as a student in a public school (and most private ones) are quite limited indeed.